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I say the Packers are stuck in the past.

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by all about da packers, Feb 27, 2007.

  1. all about da packers

    all about da packers Cheesehead

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    THIS IS JUST SOMETHING I AM PUTTING FORTH TO GET SOME DISCUSSION GOING IN THESE SLOW TIMES, PLEASE LET'S KEEP THE AADP IS A TT HATER AND A MORON OUT OF THE REPLIES.

    I propose that the Packers are stuck in the past, trying to keep ties with the ever successful Ron Wolf GM era.

    My evidence:

    - Najeh Davenport said (and I am paraphrasing) that it seems like the Packers are doing things like they were in 96, hoping to have the same success.

    - TT was hired on the recommendation of Ron Wolf. Bob Harlan went to Wolf to get advice, but surely Harlan should have tried to get another outside perspective on some of the fresher, younger minds that are up and coming, ones that may become great GMs but just needed a chance.

    - TT has often brought up Ron Wolf's methodology when discussing his own practices. Ron Wolf said himself that the game had passed him by, so isn't it possible that Wolf's strategies were no longer effective when he retired? If so, why would TT employ them?

    - Edgar Bennett is the RB coach. He may develop into a good coach, but surely it might have been better to get a coach that has taught RBs in the ZB scheme, someone from Denver that could shed light on why (it seems) every RB put in the backfield has success.

    - Rumours indicate that TT is seeking to make a White like splash with either Thomas DE from the Ravens or Moss the WR from the Raiders. We have heard there being of talk of TT targeting a big addition that can have a big impact, but is that possible in todays NFL? Has any FA or player been available that would bring what Reggie White brought to GB? It is said that getting a player like Reggie was a once in a life time occurrence, so why is (apparently) TT trying to get lightning to strike in the same place twice, so to speak?

    - Our scouts and most of our talent evaluation dept. have ties to the Wolf regime, people like Reggie McKenzie. Why haven't we tried to bring in some new scouts, ones that may be let go with other teams or ones that may be up and comers?

    I think the person replacing Bob Harlan (I believe it is Jamal Jones) needs to get some fresh blood with a new perspective.
     
  2. tromadz

    tromadz Cheesehead

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    yeah, this won't turn into a TT sucks thread...

    I'll just say while some of the methodologies seem old school, those are old school methods that brought superbowl appearances.

    And lets not forget the new school techniques that are being implemented, modeled after the New England Patriots and Pittsburgh Steelers.

    :bye:
     
  3. all about da packers

    all about da packers Cheesehead

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    Are TT's ways really new school?

    TT often says that Wolf approached the draft the same way, getting more picks in the later rounds.

    TT even says that he believes in the roster build philosophy of Ron Wolf... I specifically remember TT saying that Ron Wolf also used to keep rotating a couple of spots on the 53 man roster to get looks at different players that may be able to do something down the line.

    The Pats have been quick to usher in a new era, one that was different from the Parcells era of 96. They got a new play guy in Scott Pioli, someone that brought a change in the style.

    Even Pittsburgh is quick to change it's ways, hiring a coach that differs from their 3-4 approach that won them the SB only one year ago.

    The point is that the teams that use the "new school" philosophy are ones that aren't scared to divert completely from their old ways.

    Bob Harlan didn't really do that. I'm not sure I remember any other names surrounding the GM search (I'm sure there were others though)... It seems though that Harlan went back to what used to work best, without really willing to take a risk and overhaul the front office and get in a new mindset with a new outlook.


    Of course I am playing the devil's advocate, hopefully it'll lead to somewhere productive.
     
  4. CaliforniaCheez

    CaliforniaCheez Cheesehead

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    Let me throw around some general statements.

    1) Ron Wolf did a number of stuies and analized the process. He added a lot of psychological tests.
    2) Many of the people who learned from Ron Wolf ended up in Seattle for awhile hired by GM Mike Holmgren.
    3) The majority now seem to have left Seattle. The Ron Wolf way of doing things is getting spread around.
    4) I would say it is not "old school" but successful school.

    Check out the biography of the current GM of the 49'ers, Scot McCloughan. Half of it speaks of his learning from Ron Wolf.
    http://www.sf49ers.com/team/front_office_detail.php?PRKey=4

    "Respected NFL executive Ron Wolf was a member of the scouting department in Oakland at the time and brought Kent on board to bolster the department. Young Scot joined his father for film sessions at the house, and even traveled as his dad’s sidekick on trips around the area. He watched, learned and took notes.

    Football was life in the McCloughan household, and the environment quickly ceded Scot McCloughan into a standout on the football team as a running back, safety and return man. He was also a star baseball player, earning a scholarship on the Wichita State team where he contributed in two collegiate World Series as a designated hitter and third-baseman.

    McCloughan went on to play minor league baseball for three more years for the Toronto Blue Jays organization before football beckoned him again. It was then that Wolf re-entered the picture, this time, recruiting Kent’s son to join his scouting staff in Green Bay in 1994.

    McCloughan went on to comb the Midlands region for college talent for three years before he took over a slot in the Southeast territory. During that span, he was part of two Packers’ Super Bowl teams, including the 1996 championship squad who defeated New England in Super Bowl XXXI. In just five short years, he made an impressive name for himself and Seattle hired him as their director of college scouting.

    “He’s very good at what he does and has a tremendous desire to improve,” Wolf said. “He has an exceptional eye for talent.”

    Some of his early picks, like St. Louis G Adam Timmerman, Green Bay’s seventh-round selection out of South Dakota State in 1995, turned out to be hidden gems. Timmerman has since become a Pro Bowler.

    In Seattle, McCloughan’s efforts came to fruition when the Seahawks won the NFC Championship in 2005 and made a trip to Super Bowl XL in Detroit to play the Pittsburgh Steelers. On that roster, 25 of the 28 draft picks on McCloughan’s draft scroll were still on the team when he left his post to join the 49ers last year.

    “I think Scot is one of the bright young talents in this League. I fought like crazy to keep him here,” Seattle Head Coach Mike Holmgren said.

    Along with his tireless routine of preparation, McCloughan possesses an acute memory. It served him well heading his first draft in San Francisco, where he had to put together a draft board based on the needs of a team he barely knew.

    “Ten of the 11 draft picks from 2005 remained on the team and the one we did cut and wanted to put on the practice squad was claimed,” McCloughan recapped. “Two, three years into this, I think it’s going to be a heck of a draft.”
    The 2005 Draft Class has already proven him right.
     
  5. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    I agree with Cali.........Wolf's ways worked, so why not try to use the best parts of what he did. That being said, just because there are similarities doesn't make them the same. I mean, all NFL GM's draft players or sign free agents. Does that mean they all are following what Ron Wolf did? There are a limited amount of ways to build a team, so you HAVE to use some of the ideas of people that had success before you in order to succeed today.
     
  6. all about da packers

    all about da packers Cheesehead

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    Great posts cheesey and cali... Keeping in character though, I'll respond accordingly.

    I agree that a lot of the things Wolf emphasized were things not seen before, things that are still in effect today.

    The problem I have is with Wolf saying that the game had passed him by. How? I mean if his methods were not out dated, how exactly did the NFL pass him by?

    For example, he must have had a way to spot positives for players, like watching them during workout drills. During the drills, Wolf must have seen something specific to indicate the player could become something in the league. Did wolf all of a sudden loose the ability to spot that? I don't think that would be the case. That is why I think some of his practices, got outdated.

    Cheesey, I know you can attest to the feeling the Wolf hire must have brought. He was a new out of the organization mind, that brought a really new perspective.

    Did you get the same feeling when TT was announced as GM?
     
  7. Obi1

    Obi1 Cheesehead

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    Actually, Wolf made the statement as he was retiring... What do you expect him to say?

    TT may emulate Wolf but IMO, he is learning from Wolf's moves and trying to apply them to today's conditions.

    I think TT has been putting together a good team. Though it remains t be seen, I believe TT's greatest challenge is dealing with replacement of Favre.
     
  8. HatestheEagles084

    HatestheEagles084 Cheesehead

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    In regards to davenport, I never heard of the 96 packers taking dumps in anybody's wastebaskets...oh! sorry...

    seriously, no nobody has been available close to the aura of reggie white...MAYBE dwight freeney had indy let him hit the market...Adalius Thomas is near 30 (30 exactly I think), and it took a while for him to become successful in the NFL--maybe he's playing in a scheme that is friendly to his abilities (look at what happened to Ed Hartwell when he left the Ravens), I dont think he's the type of player you throw the bank at that will change the world, like Reggie White was
     
  9. Tiger

    Tiger Cheesehead

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    "Show me the defecation." :rotflmao:
     
  10. Greg C.

    Greg C. Cheesehead

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    I think this is a legitimate concern. It is one reason I had doubts about the Thompson hiring. Everything with the Packers is Wolf, Wolf, Wolf.

    I don't put much stock in rumors of Thompson trying to make a Wolf-like splash in free agency by bringing in a big-name guy. They are just rumors, and we will see what happens.

    Right now, I am judging Thompson on his own terms, however, and I think he is doing okay. We'll see what happens over the next couple years. The hiring of Mike McCarthy was a bit outside of the box because of the zone blocking scheme, although now that I think of it, he was offensive coordinator of the 49ers--the same position Mike Holmgren had before the Packers hired him. And he's also named Mike!
     
  11. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    Thanks Allabout!
    I think Wolf was just tired of the job, and threw out that "passed him by" statement. He put alot of time in at it, and i think he was just burned out is all.
    Actually, i was excited when they named TT as GM. After the non-productive GM Sherman years, i was hoping a REAL GM might just turn things around for us.
    With Reggie White coming here, that was everything falling into place at the right time. I don't know if we will ever see anything likie that in FA again. I mean, what if Reggie had signed here, and got hurt his first year here, and could never play again? The people would have been saying how Wolf screwed up throwing all that money at an old DE. But it all came together and worked out GREAT for us. Again, hindsight makes it easy for us.
    Last year the LB Arrington was available. And i for one wanted the Packers to go after him. He ended up getting hurt, and looks like he may have been a waste of alot of money. However, had he been here, maybe the injury never would have happened and he might have been great. There is no way of really knowing though, it's all guess work now.
     
  12. HatestheEagles084

    HatestheEagles084 Cheesehead

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    i agree, and i think we learned once with joe johnson...lets hope woodson stays healthy
     
  13. warhawk

    warhawk Cheesehead

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    If anything it looks to me like the living in the past is now in the past.

    Without blasting Sherman here he took the approach of not shaking the tree and holding onto what he had because...well, he should have. He had a hell of team there in the early 2000's.

    TT is not R. Wolf. They have spoken and Wolf commented on TT's plan to bring the Pack back and I gathered from the discussion it probably wasn't the way Wolf would have went about it but he understood where TT was coming from.

    I believe what has hurt TT from doing more damage in bringing in better talent was the fact the cap was raised up both last year and this year. I think last years increase may have hurt us more than any other team in the league.

    Having said that the cap will not continue to see those increases in the next few years and I am very glad we have TT and Brandt working together because they manage that part real well.

    We're going to have a lot of young guys coming into their prime two to three years down the road. We need that money management capability to hold onto them.
     
  14. chibiabos

    chibiabos Cheesehead

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    :twocents: All GMs and coaches have to live somewhat in the past. It's where they learned what they know now; that isn't to say that evry caoch and GM doesn't begin to build on what they've learned and add something of their own. It's quite obvious that the game has changed even since the Ron Wolf era and it doesn't surprise me that an honest person wouldn't acknowledge that change and admit that he or she no longer is with the more recent changes. The Packers do have a past and it would be unconscionable for any present coach and GM not to be impressed with that and learn from it. The past has been good to Green Bay and let's hope the future just adds to it.
     
  15. Raider Pride

    Raider Pride Cheesehead

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    If what AADP is writing (The Packers Are Stuck In The past.) I will never be a fan of this team again.

    How can any football fan follow a Owner or Leader of a team (In the Packers case.) that is STUCK IN THE PAST.


    LOL "My Hypocrisy has no limits."

    Raider Pride.
     
  16. Greg C.

    Greg C. Cheesehead

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    Go vertical, baby!
     
  17. Timmons

    Timmons Cheesehead

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    Well the topic here has been shot all over the place, so I'll bring it back to the original post:

    I'll comment inline:

    - Najeh Davenport said (and I am paraphrasing) that it seems like the Packers are doing things like they were in 96, hoping to have the same success.

    Najeh's opinion of who is doing what doesn't carry any weight with me. There would need to be some examples explained before that's worth anything.

    - TT was hired on the recommendation of Ron Wolf. Bob Harlan went to Wolf to get advice, but surely Harlan should have tried to get another outside perspective on some of the fresher, younger minds that are up and coming, ones that may become great GMs but just needed a chance.

    Bob Harlan respects Wolf from what I understand and the GM hiring is a big decision, should we be shocked that he sought Wolf's take on it? And how does that make this the Pack living in the Past?

    - TT has often brought up Ron Wolf's methodology when discussing his own practices. Ron Wolf said himself that the game had passed him by, so isn't it possible that Wolf's strategies were no longer effective when he retired? If so, why would TT employ them?

    Wolf says the game passed him by. His methods still work, but they take time. Time Wolf doesn't want to put into the game, hence it past him by.

    - Edgar Bennett is the RB coach. He may develop into a good coach, but surely it might have been better to get a coach that has taught RBs in the ZB scheme, someone from Denver that could shed light on why (it seems) every RB put in the backfield has success.

    This is a good point but how is this living in 96? Cause Edgar played then? Maybe, the ZB scheme mentioned clearly shoots the 'living in the past' theory down here.

    - Rumours indicate that TT is seeking to make a White like splash with either Thomas DE from the Ravens or Moss the WR from the Raiders. We have heard there being of talk of TT targeting a big addition that can have a big impact, but is that possible in todays NFL? Has any FA or player been available that would bring what Reggie White brought to GB? It is said that getting a player like Reggie was a once in a life time occurrence, so why is (apparently) TT trying to get lightning to strike in the same place twice, so to speak?

    Rumor also have it that EVERY DAMN team in the NFL is trying to make a "reggie-like splash" in Free Agency. What team wouldn't want that?

    - Our scouts and most of our talent evaluation dept. have ties to the Wolf regime, people like Reggie McKenzie. Why haven't we tried to bring in some new scouts, ones that may be let go with other teams or ones that may be up and comers?

    I am not familiar with the turnover in scouting departments. I would say that considering Wolf's tenure, you should expect some of his staff to still be here.

    You missed one as well considering the above logic: Brett Favre, how can you say our scouts are old without saying that the QB from the same era is not washed up?

    I don't believe the pack is living in the past, furthermore, I don't beleive that the items above are hurting us. Edgar is the unknown for me as I have no idea how much an RB coach really helps or hurts. Edgar may be riding his namesake here, but clearly, he's a better position coach than Kurt S.
     

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