I am shocked!

[Deleted member 6794]

This is a case where TT seems to have over valued his draft and develop philosophy. I'm not even going to list all the guys who have played ILB over the last 4 years, TT obviously whiffed in regards to developing quality ILB's. If some of the cast offs were going to other teams and lightening it up, I would put some of the blame on the coaching staff, but they aren't.

Ryan was really the first ILB even taken in recent drafts higher then 6th round. So maybe this is the year that we finally see the Packers invest in the position via FA or draft. But I do think most of us are in agreement, the time to do it was...... yesterday.

True, and I´m tired about hearing that the inside linebacker position isn´t that important in a 3-4 defense. The coaching staff seems to think differently as they were ready to move our best defensive player to the position for 1 1/2 years.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

True, and I´m tired about hearing that the inside linebacker position isn´t that important in a 3-4 defense. The coaching staff seems to think differently as they were ready to move our best defensive player to the position for 1 1/2 years.

Agreed.

People talk about "AR's best years being wasted" but how about Matthews and Peppers with very little supporting cast lined up next to them? Imagine what either would be able to do with 1-2 quality players standing in between them. Our safeties would also have to worry less about making up for the deficiencies of the ILB's. I'm cautiously optimistic with Ryan and hope he turns out to be a quality player, but in no way should he be relied on to start along side Barrington next year. Even relying on Barrington is marginal at best.

 

[adambr2]

Yeah, I don't think it was so much that he was deliberately neglecting the position as it was thinking he had more in guys like Hawk, Jones, Ryan, Palmer, Bradford, etc.

I'm afraid he will still do the same next year with Barrington who frankly even healthy is a low end starter that could be upgraded.

I don't think TT is unwilling to test free agency, but I think one of his biggest faults is a gross overestmation of his own handpicked talent.

Going into 2013 with either Doc Jennings or Jerron McMillian as your opening day safeties (actually both at first because Burnett was hurt) was borderline neglectful.

That said none of us should be shocked if Sam Barrington and Jake Ryan open up 2016 as our starters.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I'm cautiously optimistic with Ryan and hope he turns out to be a quality player, but in no way should he be relied on to start along side Barrington next year. Even relying on Barrington is marginal at best.

I would be OK, not excited, with either Barrington or Ryan starting at one inside linebacker spot. No way should both of them start or one of them be the lone linebacker in the dime package.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

The argument of how much of the team's success is due to Rodgers would be much more important regarding an evaluation of Thompson IMO if he had inherited Rodgers. I give him a lot of credit for that pick. A pick 20-some GMs had the opportunity to make and didn’t. Beyond that we just can't know what would have happened if Rodgers weren't a Packer. How would the 2005 draft have proceeded – and every draft after that? How would that have affected the Favre cluster shtup of 2008? More to the point you made, if the Packers hadn’t had the kind of success they did, how much of the "brain drain" of front office talent would have occurred? I don’t have any question in my mind that the Packers FO suffered from the loss of Schneider, Dorsey, and McKenzie. And replacing that kind of talent and experience is incredibly difficult.

So then there shouldn't be any concern over the talent drain because the Packers were good enough to have talent to drain from? The issue isn't what the Packers DID, it's what they're doing now.

 

[mradtke66]

True, and I´m tired about hearing that the inside linebacker position isn´t that important in a 3-4 defense. The coaching staff seems to think differently as they were ready to move our best defensive player to the position for 1 1/2 years.

The two positions are not mutually exclusive. Having a low "required minimum skill set" doesn't mean you can't strike out with your talent. Or get struck with injuries. Or that the next best option is moving a premier OLB to the inside. Neal/Perry and Peppers also played well enough that moving Matthews inside wasn't horrible.

To be clear, I want a better ILB. I want Matthews on the edge most of the time with movement as part of a game plan to exploit something on the other team. I hope we can find that guy.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

That said none of us should be shocked if Sam Barrington and Jake Ryan open up 2016 as our starters.

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[TJV]

So then there shouldn't be any concern over the talent drain because the Packers were good enough to have talent to drain from? The issue isn't what the Packers DID, it's what they're doing now.

I never typed anything about not being concerned about the talent drain. I'm not sure how you could come to that conclusion after reading the last two sentences of my post: "I don’t have any question in my mind that the Packers FO suffered from the loss of Schneider, Dorsey, and McKenzie. And replacing that kind of talent and experience is incredibly difficult."

 

[Croak]

Perhaps this thread should have been titled "TT and FA ad infinitum" or "TT and FA Redux", but dang, it sure generated a lot of discussion.

 

[JBlood]

I think one of his biggest faults is a gross overestmation of his own handpicked talent.

Could it be it's the coaches who overestimate their personnel or draft picks? I would be surprised if TT drafts players without some input by the coaching staff. Maybe he drafts only his private board; maybe it's a collaborative effort with coaches, which would seem to be more likely. MM keeps saying our offensive line is the best one he's had. They were above average in 2014 if you believe in DVOA, which is the best ranking Campen's lines have had since 2007. And that 2014 ranking includes a rank of 25th in power; 24th in stuffs--situations that good, solid offensive lines should dominate. But if they truly are outstanding, then who is to blame for their mediocre efforts? One thing seems certain: Campen is not one to develop (or demand) solid offensive line play year after year; or game after game.

And Capers says its just a few big plays that hurt his defense. He is correct, but it's more than a few big plays. Only 6 teams, I believe, gave up more than the 88 we allowed during the past regular season. Throw in the Fitzgerald big play that ended the season and giving up big plays becomes a huge and recurring problem with Capers' defense, imo.
Are the big plays on Capers or the personnel? Or both?

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Could it be it's the coaches who overestimate their personnel or draft picks? I would be surprised if TT drafts players without some input by the coaching staff. Maybe he drafts only his private board; maybe it's a collaborative effort with coaches, which would seem to be more likely.

I thought that coaches had some input into the draft process as well until I read before the 2013 draft that Thompson finally was looking for players better suited to fit Capers system. That made me believe the coaches aren't involved in the process at all.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I thought that coaches had some input into the draft process as well until I read before the 2013 draft that Thompson finally was looking for players better suited to fit Capers system. That made me believe the coaches aren't involved in the process at all.

First impressions of that sounds pretty disjointed if it is the case. In the Packer case, that would require TT to know everything about Capers plans for the 2016 defense, as well as how each player on the roster pre-draft will be used by Capers. I understand not having 9 guys in the draft room trying to make the decision, but logic would tell you TT has to have a pretty decent understanding of what a particular coach is looking for in order for that coach to do his job. "Hey Bob (Sanders), I drafted you this stud out of Tennessee, Justin Harrell....hope you know how to use him!"

 

[Deleted member 6794]

First impressions of that sounds pretty disjointed if it is the case. In the Packer case, that would require TT to know everything about Capers plans for the 2016 defense, as well as how each player on the roster pre-draft will be used by Capers. I understand not having 9 guys in the draft room trying to make the decision, but logic would tell you TT has to have a pretty decent understanding of what a particular coach is looking for in order for that coach to do his job. "Hey Bob (Sanders), I drafted you this stud out of Tennessee, Justin Harrell....hope you know how to use him!"

I think it's strange as well but according to an article in the Journal Sentinel right before the 2013 draft it's true.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

I never typed anything about not being concerned about the talent drain. I'm not sure how you could come to that conclusion after reading the last two sentences of my post: "I don’t have any question in my mind that the Packers FO suffered from the loss of Schneider, Dorsey, and McKenzie. And replacing that kind of talent and experience is incredibly difficult."

It was the sentence just prior to those two where you commented that there wouldn't have been as much drain if the Packers had not been successful (paraphrasing).

 

[JBlood]

That made me believe the coaches aren't involved in the process at all.

Crazy, if true. What coach doesn't want some say in the players he's dealt?

 

[Crockett&Tubbs]

I've been irritated by TT's reliance-on-draft&develop and his passivity towards other methods. And seeing Seattle make back-to-back SuperBowls, and win one, with our old guy Schneider being aggressive, added insult to injury.

And Marshawn BeastMode was the salt in the wound, because by all indications, Buffalo was set to deal him to us, but Seattle came in, and their 3rd round pick was a little higher, so they got him for the last 6 seasons.

Reminds me of New England getting Randy Moss in 2007. Didn't the Packers and Patriots have a deal too, before NE upped the offer a bit, which still was a super steal, as Marshawn was.

That all being true, in defense of Teddy, remember these 2 nuggets:
A) Heading into this season, I, and many of you as well as national folks, thought WE HAD THE BEST TEAM and would win the Super Bowl. So he must have assembled a pretty decent team.
B) We probably would have won the Super Bowl last year as well, in Peppers FIRST year with the Packers (thanks Teddy), if not for all kinds of bogus lucky & chokey stuff in Seattle. A fake field goal? It worked? For a touchdown? That's lucky. A prayer 2-pt conversion? And then when all is said and done, an idiot makes a mental error AND a physical error on an onside kick. Those were all miraculous crap for Seattle.

So really, we were better in 2014 as well, in addition to heading into 2015 as heavy favorites. We even beat Seattle without Jordy in September. Remember that.

That being said, and I like Damarious Randall, but we needed an ILB badly, and we had our pick of every single ILB in the 2015 Draft and they should have taken the best one, and finally solved that hole.

So I credit Teddy, and I criticize him where I think it's deserved. All opinions.

 

[TJV]

I thought that coaches had some input into the draft process as well until I read before the 2013 draft that Thompson finally was looking for players better suited to fit Capers system. That made me believe the coaches aren't involved in the process at all.

I've read stories over the years about the process in which the all the personnel people along with the assistant coaches discuss all the prospects. Everyone has their say and Thompson makes the final decision.

 

[Poppa San]

My analysis of Thompson's teams boils down to, barring injuries are they in the super bowl? Injuries are unpredictable. The team should be deep enough to lose one starter at every position and still win. If so, can they still get a postseason run? (The makeup of this team precludes losing Aaron.) I think so. I'm counting the OL and DL and DBs each as one position. With Jordy and Barrington as well as an unbanged up OL and Shields, the Packers play this past Sunday. Almost made it without Jordy and Sam and an ineffective Lacey and losing Hyde and Cobb and Monty and Adams and an injured OL and everbody else I'm too lazy to look up. Going 2-3 deep down the bench is not a championship formula.

 

[Crockett&Tubbs]

The team should be deep enough to lose one starter at every position and still win.

Take away a Jordy, a Dez Bryant, a Julio, an Antonio Brown, Odell Beckham, and the team's are not the same. Those guys are special. Playmakers. And make it easier for everyone around them.
We're lucky we have Jordy. Sad thing is we could have also had Dez, and Antonio. Imagine those 3 together.
Better than Pro Bowl rosters. (That's not a criticism. We had to take Bulaga, and it helped us with XLV his rookie year. And Antonio was no sure thing... remember, he and Emmanuel Sanders were youngsters in XLV against us, behind Mike Wallace and Hines Ward).

 

[Carl]

I've been irritated by TT's reliance-on-draft&develop and his passivity towards other methods. And seeing Seattle make back-to-back SuperBowls, and win one, with our old guy Schneider being aggressive, added insult to injury.

And Marshawn BeastMode was the salt in the wound, because by all indications, Buffalo was set to deal him to us, but Seattle came in, and their 3rd round pick was a little higher, so they got him for the last 6 seasons.

Reminds me of New England getting Randy Moss in 2007. Didn't the Packers and Patriots have a deal too, before NE upped the offer a bit, which still was a super steal, as Marshawn was.

That all being true, in defense of Teddy, remember these 2 nuggets:
A) Heading into this season, I, and many of you as well as national folks, thought WE HAD THE BEST TEAM and would win the Super Bowl. So he must have assembled a pretty decent team.
B) We probably would have won the Super Bowl last year as well, in Peppers FIRST year with the Packers (thanks Teddy), if not for all kinds of bogus lucky & chokey stuff in Seattle. A fake field goal? It worked? For a touchdown? That's lucky. A prayer 2-pt conversion? And then when all is said and done, an idiot makes a mental error AND a physical error on an onside kick. Those were all miraculous crap for Seattle.

So really, we were better in 2014 as well, in addition to heading into 2015 as heavy favorites. We even beat Seattle without Jordy in September. Remember that.

That being said, and I like Damarious Randall, but we needed an ILB badly, and we had our pick of every single ILB in the 2015 Draft and they should have taken the best one, and finally solved that hole.

So I credit Teddy, and I criticize him where I think it's deserved. All opinions.

I don't think TT should have picked an ILB in the first last season just because it was the biggest need since he has to take into account value also.

Even though he had his pick of every ILB, it doesn't mean he had any of them rated high enough to go where we picked.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

The team should be deep enough to lose one starter at every position and still win.

Well, the Packers lost Nelson for the 2015 season and as soon as teams figured out how to defend the team´s receivers the entire offseason looked out of sync. On the defensive side of the ball I don´t think there´s any way the unit could overcome losing Daniels or Matthews.

 

[longtimefan]

Perhaps this thread should have been titled "TT and FA ad infinitum" or "TT and FA Redux", but dang, it sure generated a lot of discussion.

This thread wasn't about Ted

 

[Sunshinepacker]

True, and I´m tired about hearing that the inside linebacker position isn´t that important in a 3-4 defense. The coaching staff seems to think differently as they were ready to move our best defensive player to the position for 1 1/2 years.

The coaching staff wanted to get the best linebackers on the field. The team had three good OLBs and zero good ILBs. Peppers/Perry have no chance playing ILB so Matthews gets moved. The alternative was that Matthews stayed at OLB and Perry sat on the bench.

There is a huge difference between a position not being that highly valued and having no players on the team that can actually play that position at an NFL level.

 

[NelsonsLongCatch]

So why is it that when a team that invested heavily in free agency finally wins one, the reaction is, 'Aha! See?' Why does the Broncos win make the approach of previous Super Bowl winners any less valid in their own right?

I think you're looking at it the wrong way. I think people see the Broncos, a team that drafted extremely well, supplement solid drafts with free agent signings and went to two Super Bowls in three years and won one. I think people are seeing parallels between the Packers and Broncos. Don't forget, the Broncos drafted guys like Von Miller, Derrick Wolfe, Sylvester Williams, DeMarious Thomas, Bradley Roby, Shane Ray, ect and supplemented with guys like Manning, Ware, TJ Ward and Talib.

 

[Mondio]

and Manning this year was an anchor around that team, on the field and on the cap. When talib was a FA, we had Shields and Tramon, both considered to be some of the better DB's in the game. I think Peppers is as good as Ware. Ward would have been nice, but i'm not sure when he was available and when we made our financial commitment to Burnett and drafted Dix, who I think is turning out nicely after having quite a few criticisms of him early.

it's easy to pick players, but when you factor everything in, how easy is it? I don't think talib is anything more than what we have right now, randall included. he has the benefit of better LB'ers, probably a slight up tick on DL and Von Miller, who nobody on our roster has taken over a game like he has, playing in front of him.