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Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by Chamuko, Sep 28, 2005.

  1. Chamuko

    Chamuko Cheesehead

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    Graham column: Offense needs to be less predictable

    Every week I’m supposed to write a column with the theme: What will it take for the Packers to beat their next opponent?

    This week, it’s the Carolina Panthers and I’m about stumped. More surprising was your responses.

    “The Packers will not beat the Carolina Panthers because they are not a good football team,â€
     
  2. IPBprez

    IPBprez Cheesehead

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    Several things that more or less stopped when the Sherman/Rossley Team stepped onto the stage in Green Bay....

    • No Tiger Set - running the TE's to offset any other type of strategy - GONE!

      Letting Brett Favre call his own plays - ala John Elway - GONE!

      Running Screen Passes/Crossing Routes - without the Tiger Set - IMPOSSIBLE!

    Now - I'm real sure that Chamuko, JW84, Bruce and 66, along with several others can bring up even more items for this list... But, these three are the real deal and the main reasoning, as far as I'm concerned "WHY" the Packers are predictable...

    Anyone wanna jump in here...?
     
  3. DePack

    DePack Cheesehead

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    Favre, for the record, never called his own plays. He checked off from time to time as he does now. When asked about it, he said he doesn't want to call his own plays.

    It doesn't take a hack from Oshkosh to tell me that our offense is predictable. I agree that we got to change things up but you can't just say keep forcing the ball to Green. Down and distance and score has something to do with the play calling. If you keep "forcing" the ball to green, inevitably he is going to cough it up!
     
  4. digsthepack

    digsthepack Cheesehead

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    It is true that Favre never called his own plays, but he was allowed more freedom to audible and had a much more aggresive package than the check downs he is now limited to.

    Bottom line, in my view, is that Sherman/Rossley (the 2 headed beast) have a limited capacity to think ahead of the play at hand. Rarely do I see this team set a defense up for a big play; aggressively exploit a defense's weakness ("we just do what we do, regardless of what is presented").......I mean, several years ago against the Eagles, they were down to their 3rd string corner, and he was never seriously challenged by the Packers' playcalling. And don't even get started on game/clock management.

    I think the players have witnessed enough of these gaffes over the years that some of them are tuning Sherman/Rossley out. Like I said in a previous thread, if I am a Packer player and two weeks in a row when trailing in a game (one by 2 scores with less than 5 minutes left) the decision is made not to run the 2 minute offense.... which is something Favre was awesome at prior to Sherman's arrival....I would conclude either ineptitude on the coaching staff, or that they gave up on their players and/or the game. Either way, they would no longer hold my respect and confidence.
     
  5. HatestheEagles084

    HatestheEagles084 Cheesehead

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    i can't say as much as i'd like to, the only game i got to watch in this area was the cleveland game...

    no screen passes is a biggie...the things i did not see against cleveland (or hear about in the other two games) are the 'change of pace' plays...screens and draws...defenses can key on the run or key on the pass and not have to worry about an unexpected variation...the article characterizes cleveland's defense as "aggressive"...and a few of these plays could use their over-activeness against them

    i say get ruegammer in the game...he played last year when we actually ran screen passes...whitticker is a big guy and false starts all the time, whitticker was great for a 7th round pick but he's not the answer for us right now

    another thing that gets to me...we're down a tight end as so as it is (if bubba's still hurt?)...i want to see us run the u71 formations, or maybe even stick vonta leach in the backfield as a 3rd back...

    here's what we gotta do monday to win...there is a big hole in the carolina d-line that kris jenkins used to fill, lets attack it...lets get on the board first and keep control of the ball...we only had the ball for 25 minutes last sunday...if their offense is on the field nine minutes more than ours, chances are they will score more points,

    i'm done complaining about what play we did or didn't run...there are gaping deficiencies in certain statistical categories that can easily be fixed, and we lost our last two games by 1 and 2 points...if this team plays a good fundamental game...moving the ball along effectively, no penalties--no drive killing false start penalties, hold onto the ball...we can beat carolina

    ...and i just thought of something else...i remember two or three plays ran in the cleveland game where it was just chatman underneath outrunning everybody and picking up decent yardage...back in the day we had a guy named corey bradford, we put him in the slot and just sent him running down the field, to either open up routes short or maybe hit him long, he's got the speed, give it a shot

    and on the subject of chatman, he shouldn't be punt returner anymore. when i was confident in this offense, i liked chatman as a returner just because he was safe with the ball...well now we need big plays...game-changing plays, and i dont think chatman has the capability to do that off of a punt return--either t-murphy or a rejuvenated ahmad caroll, somebody...
     
  6. Greg C.

    Greg C. Cheesehead

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    I've frequently defended the play-calling over the past few years, not because I think it's great, but because I don't think it's nearly as bad as many fans make it out to be. Toward the end of last season, most Packer fans agreed that Mike Sherman was doing a good job calling the plays. Has he suddenly gotten stupid? Let's consider the following differences between last year's Packer offense and this year's Packer offense:

    Two Pro Bowl-caliber guards have been replaced by a journeyman and a rookie, respectively. (Not exactly helpful for screen passes, sweeps, traps, and draws.)

    This year's formerly Pro Bowl-caliber center is playing at a lower level than the guy who replaced him last year. (Grey Ruegamer, who inexplicably has been denied a starting position anywhere on the line.)

    A Pro Bowl wide receiver has been lost for the season with an injury.

    The Pro Bowl tight end has been rusty after sitting out most of training camp, and missed the third game with an injury.

    So why is the offense struggling this year? Well, surely it must be...the play-calling!

    And I'm being generous to the offensive personnel. Some would say that Brett Favre and Ahman Green are not quite what they used to be. I'm not ready to concede that yet, but it's possible. What is even more possible is that William Henderson is finally showing his age, and Vonta Leach is a downgrade from Nick Luchey at least until he can gain more experience.

    When all is said and done, the play-calling is about average by NFL standards, which is not good enough for me, but neither can it explain most of the offense's problems. Maybe play-calling draws a lot of attention from fans because it's so easy to criticize after the fact. (Hint: If the coaches call a pass play that's unsuccessful, you can say that they should've run the ball. If they call a running play that's unsuccesful, you can say they should've passed it.) Maybe another reason that people complain so much about play-calling is that it's a way of avoiding the fact that the talent level is lower than fans would like to admit.
     
  7. P@ck66

    P@ck66 Banned Banned

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    or maybe it's because the play calling really does "suck"...

    Greg..i really can't believe that you think Rossley is good at calling plays or that Sherman's been that good for that matter?...Ive never admitted it...it seems that after that one Lions game last year..people were jumping on the "Sherman should call the plays"... band wagon....BUT what happened in the Viking playoff game last year?

    (And is Sherman really calling the plays? IBPREZ..myself, and others feel that Rossley's been calling them all along...so what is he saying? Is he lying to everyone?)

    Viking playoff loss wasn't real innovative now was it? And they seem to have picked up EXACTLY where they left off...and that was with a HEALTHY TEAM last year and better talent...how do you explain that?

    this is a trend...my friend...

    It's already been established that the Packers run man to man routes where the receivers are asked to beat out the db's...if the talent level isn't there at receiver, and the run game isn't there...well then the db's just double up on our old and slow, or inexperienced receivers and they can not get open.

    HOw do you remedy this?

    By maybe having half a brain and throwing to a RB or tight end over the middle to loosen the defense up...where now they have to worry about the middle of the field...instead of just the flat or the deep ball...

    it's called "strategy" or game planning...making adjustments...whatever you want to call it..but for some reason...Sherman and Rossley don't do this...

    How about running some pick patterns....how about some stop and go's...pump fakes..timing patterns..etc....

    You can't just "rationalize" away the fact that Green Bay is about as predictable as the grass growing in the summer....

    and that's just not good enough..even with the personnel that they currently have!
     
  8. HatestheEagles084

    HatestheEagles084 Cheesehead

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    i choose not to debate the playcalling anymore because of the viking playoff game last year..."alright guys, run a route of your choice, brett's going to throw the ball at something hard, and hopefully someone catches it" was the plan last january
     
  9. musccy

    musccy Cheesehead

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    Yep, they're back to calling those "please throw an interception plays" just like the MN game...geez, why did MS call 4 of those in the MN game, and 7 of those thus far this season?!? Duh, doesn't MS know that ints are bad?!?

    And you're blaming MS because he's not calling pump fakes?!? You're joking, I mean, really, you have to be...he's not calling pump fakes?!?!? Pump fakes are improv from the QB...if you aren't seeing pump fakes BLAME BRETT.
     
  10. IPBprez

    IPBprez Cheesehead

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    Dang, I started a World Conference with my thoughts - You'd think the U.N. was gathering new Forces here.... Not to take anything away from the original post, either.....

    I do want to clarify on one issue ---
    Let's take the Throwback Machine ride with Mr. Peabody & Co... going back to just before the SuperBowl 31 run... (people can actually watch the re-runs on this one) ...there's a scene on the Brett Favre DVD (in his book - FAVRE) wherein, we see Holmgren catching up with Favre, as Brett came running to the sidelines, during a game, and Brett tells MH that he sees a spot that the other Team has left wide open, and also announces the play that would bite them in the butt.... you guys rememberin' this?

    At any rate - while Holmgren ran a tight ship, he did give Favre leeway to almost have that "John Elway freedom" with calling some of the plays along the way.... probably more often than what even the DVD depicts...

    And, yes, I would agree that the sort of "tight ship" that MS runs is waaay different than the type that MH ran... two totally different worlds.

    Can you imagine how long Favre would have lasted in 1993-4 when Holmgren almost sat #4 down for the INT issue(s)...with MS in charge, instead of MH?

    Keep 'em coming.....
     
  11. P@ck66

    P@ck66 Banned Banned

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    Musscy,

    Did it ever occur to you that Favre throws interceptions BECAUSE THE PACKER PLAY CALLING IS SOOOO PREDICTABLE?

    Therfore, GB's receivers do not get open because they are SOOO PREDICTABLE...and Favre tries to get the ball in there because no one is open ever...

    (and i don't hear about the ONE time that Henderson was open...and Favre didn't throw it to him....)

    Why can't the Packer receivers get open? IS that Brett Favre's fault?

    Or is it the coaching of the receivers and the play calling?

    Hell..90% of the bar where i go was predicting what plays the Packers were going to run before they ran them...

    Sherman does not know how to coach his players....

    and regarding Ferguson....it was a dumb move to go after two rookie receivers in the same draft.....he should have signed a proven VETERAN!
     
  12. musccy

    musccy Cheesehead

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    90% could predict the plays:

    Well you have a 50:50 chance of being right to begin w/...then if you put some thought into what they're likely to call on 3rd and 9, then I'd hope you'd predict the play.

    The reason I keep referencing the Henderson play is because that could happen on any play, but you don't know it. Sherman could send 17 running backs into the flat, but if Brett doesn't throw it there, it won't be shown on TV. You wouldn't know if it happened, but you'd undoubtedly blame MS for it.

    Brett isn't surrounded by talent? He's surrounded by a lot more than Dilfer is, yet Dilfer outplayed Brett. If Brett were THAT good, wouldn't he be able to overcome weaknesses in the team?

    I've probably mentioned to you 8 times in the last week that I acknowledge that MS has his faults, and that wrs (apparently) not getting open as much (although I've read Murphy was open a lot on sun) lies at least somewhat on the coaches shoulders. But your argument is so bullheaded...you can not admit that Favre plays some roll in his ints...I am not the only person who sees his decline. Listen to any talk show w/out a Packer bias and they will say the same stuff I'm saying.

    Je's still better than whatever else the Pack has, and he's still swell and all, but he contributes a lot to the losing efforts...EVEN HE SAYS SO!!!!!!!!!!
     
  13. musccy

    musccy Cheesehead

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    Just like Terry Glenn?!? You critique everything at face value when it comes to MS, but you do tiptoe around everything when it comes to Brett.

    Brett has 7 picks this year...on pace for 37.
     
  14. IPBprez

    IPBprez Cheesehead

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    Hey guys - go read my latest Perspective from Packernation - I've created a new web page update for his Article....

    Tampa Bay Game Review - PN Perspective

    After that - check out my new setup for the Club Members - called:

    IPB Sports Desk

    You can join up there, too - or just come back here and discuss...
    Good commentary all around and some of it not allowed on certain "other" Packer web sites... (if you really check).
     
  15. DePack

    DePack Cheesehead

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    IPB......You really want that thing critiqued? First of all.....you are a helluva alot uglier than I thought and secondly I should have guessed you were a friggin engineer (coming from a fellow PE).....seriously though....I thought the article was right on. I like your writing style....very unengineeringlike.....did you take some journalism courses too?
     
  16. P@ck66

    P@ck66 Banned Banned

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    Sorry IBP...

    But my critique is that this guy is full of sh!t!...

    I'd rather believe someone like Steve Young (who's actually been there) than this guy who doesn't know what the hell he is talking about...

    OK...the team is decimated of talent...there is no running game...the marquee receiver is out for the year..the other receivers are rookies or mediocre at best...the play calling and game planning is atrocious...but it's all FARVE's fault...it must be...

    he went from 4,000 yard, 30 TD seasons to SUCK in no time flat...

    (Sorry..just ain't buying it...this guy and Musscy ought to get a beer together because they have ALOT in common)

    they are both Sherman APOLOGISTS...
     
  17. musccy

    musccy Cheesehead

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    Pack66, you're a Favre apologist...and instead of saying MS apologists are morons, why don't you address some of the points they bring up? Skirting this issue suggests that you acknowledge what they say.

    Under MS, the Pack had one of the best o-lines in football and Ahman had the 7th best rushing season of all time. 2 yrs. later, and under TT's watch, the interior of the line sucks, and Ahman is doing nothing...is it ALL MS' fault?
     
  18. digsthepack

    digsthepack Cheesehead

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    It is not all MS's fault, musccy. But beyond the talent drain, which is natural in the NFL, he did poorly in replacing it during his tenure as GM and he seems to have difficulty early in the season and is prone to some big mental errors damn near every game. No, it is not all his fault, but I do not believe he has put this team, with the talent he actually has, in the best position to win week in week out.
     
  19. musccy

    musccy Cheesehead

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    and I don't deny most of what you say, digs...why weren't the Packers in hurry up vs. the Browns, why didn't they kick a field goal w/ 25 sec to go...yeah, I know MS screws up. However, my 2 main points...

    1) the grass isn't always greener...ppl cite Parcells or Gruden as great coaches, but they obviously screw up too...the cowboys blew a 13 pt. lead late vs. the redskins, and squeaked out a victory vs. the lowly '9ers. TB went 8-8, and 5-11 following their super bowl victory. MS, however, has led the team to 5 straight winning seasons.

    2) Some blame lies on the players. They are, afterall, the ones the execute on the field.
     
  20. IPBprez

    IPBprez Cheesehead

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    I could have told all you guys I was uglier-n-sin.. but who cares.. about all that hollywood nonsense - Speilberg's not hangin around PF.com and besides... WE'RE ALL PACKERFANS... like my Club motto states - "always room for one more...."

    =====================================

    If you guys want to see some of my 1st attempt write-ups.. you can go back to the Perspective link and click on the Cleveland game Review - THAT ONE, I did..... Otherwise, I cannot take credit for what Mark (Packernation) writes up.. nor did I write up what our Senior Club Member wrote for our very own IPB Sports Desk... We do, however, think in very similar lines of thought as my postings (historically) will prove....

    For PN's benefit - (and this is for many of you who may also feel the same way.... or not) but, one of the other Writers for PackerChatters has decided that NO Brett Favre commentary which is derogatory, or "finding fault therein" are to be posted on the PC web site... by any Writers. If any Brett Favre commentary is posted, it will be in "glowing terms" - No commentary on how ridiculous his INT percentages are will be discussed.. only those two great TD passes are receiving commentary as far as what I've read up to a couple of days ago.... In that regard, PN is going national with his Writer's Service and part of that will be for IPB to generate interest on his articles... which, btw, we are very glad to assist with. I would offer that PN login here, as well, and add his Writer's angle to this Forum as well... but that may be more of an angle which RYAN should be discussing "directly" with PN, as he does have a specific Header which is now necessary for his postings.....etc.,etc. JUST SO you guys get the drift... PN has been writing commentary for the PC web site for quite some time (damn good at it, too) and now he's seeing this "gag order" from Mgmt concerning Brett Favre - which is unfair to all of the other players, as well as watching Favre comment to the Reporters that he takes full blame for the loss, as well.

    =========================================

    Thanks for the compliment, DePack - ...didn't know ya cared... :shock: :oops:
    Just so ya know - my girl saw your post... and wants to know where ya live... :twisted:
     
  21. Chamuko

    Chamuko Cheesehead

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    Very polite and totally right, MS is not placing his resources in the right position and order.. And he is the one in charge of the team as a HC.
     
  22. DePack

    DePack Cheesehead

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    IPB....you have a girlfriend? After looking at your picture....no wonder she wants my address. Just kidding, of course. I really did like the article. Very well written and I agreed with most of it.
     
  23. IPBprez

    IPBprez Cheesehead

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    Pssst, DePack - if you JOIN my web site - you should then be able to click on my Passport ID link (RDGO_50) and view what the original photo looks like... print out a copy and throw darts at it...

    That's my girl Susan, in the pic....

    Glad you liked it... Probably later on in the Season, after I get our Tee-shirt orders completed - I'll have time to actually write-up a Review for PackerForum. Research takes time... that's all... and I'm pretty short on it right now...
     

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