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Harlan Regrets Giving GM Job to Sherman

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by Bagadeez04, Jul 4, 2012.

  1. Bagadeez04

    Bagadeez04 Cheesehead

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    I have to admit, I always thought the big downfall of the Coach and GM roles being e man's hands were that that man would always be looking to win the big one "this year" (Hue Jackson's one year power trip for example) and would ignore the "big picture" or the needs of the team five years down the road.

    I continue to believe this is a big reason why the idea of a coach/GM is a bad one, but hadn't thought that dealing with player holdouts and other off the field issues might carry over to coaching duties.

    "(He) did a great job of coaching. But it got to the point when we started having problems with players that he almost seemed to be ignoring the team."Harlan pointed to the long, contentious holdout of cornerback Mike McKenzie in 2004 as a breaking point. McKenzies' battle with the team left Sherman frazzled heading into the season, according to Harlan
     
  2. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  3. Bagadeez04

    Bagadeez04 Cheesehead

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  4. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Yup I know..But sometimes people dont see it, and more importantly..Source if come snooping, likes to see a link
     
  5. Lunchboxer

    Lunchboxer Guest

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    He was a decent on the field coach. But horrible GM. I really dont remember any of the draft picks he picked in the draft.

    Only had that 1 losing season.
     
  6. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    I liked him as a person but he wasn't the right fit for GB.
     
  7. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    come on

    BJ Sanders!! punter
     
  8. Lunchboxer

    Lunchboxer Guest

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    Oh I forgot about that powerhouse of a punter He was go great that I forgot about him. He put Tim Mastay to shame. :sneaky:
     
  9. TJV

    TJV Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    That’s old news about Harlan’s concern about Sherman’s preoccupation with the McKenzie situation finally leading him to figure out both jobs were too big for him. As for Sherman’s drafts, here are some highlights and lowlights: In 2002 he picked WR Javon Walker in the first, RB Najeh Davenport in the fourth and DE Aaron Kampman in the fifth. The next draft he picked LB Nick Barnett with the 29th pick and struck out on the rest. (Actually he picked LB Hunter Hillenmeyer in the fifth and foolishly tried to hide him on the PS and the Bears grabbed him and he started some games for them.) In his last draft he struck out with CB Ahmad Carroll in the first, and CB Joey Thomas and DL Donnell Washington in the third. Then in one of the worst moves in the draft by a Packers GM, he traded up into the third round for a punter. In the sixth round he picked DT Corey Williams and in the seventh Scott Wells.

    So with nine picks in the 2003 draft he acquired one starter and with 6 picks in the 2004 he got two at the end of the draft. The Packers couldn’t afford to have him continue in the role of GM. And that, of course, is old news too.
     
  10. Lunchboxer

    Lunchboxer Guest

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    Traded up to get a Punter....That is stupid. What happen to all the people he drafted in 2004?? Hardly know of any of them.
     
  11. TJV

    TJV Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    I have read some Packers fans attribute the 2001 draft to Sherman even though it was Wolf’s last draft. I don’t because if Wolf let Sherman affect his picks in that draft, that is still on Wolf IMO. Anyway, here’s the list of Sherman’s picks in three drafts, in order:

    2002:
    Javon Walker
    Marques Anderson
    Najeh Davenport
    Aaron Kampmann
    Craig Nall
    Mike Houghton

    2003:
    Nick Barnett
    Kenny Peterson
    James Lee
    Hunter Hillenmeyer
    Brennan Curtin
    Chris Johnson
    DeAndrew Rubin
    Carl Ford
    Steve Josue

    2004:
    Ahmad Carroll
    Joey Thomas
    Donnell Washington
    BJ Sander
    Corey Williams
    Scott Wells

    A couple things to note IMO: First, when Thompson took over, he used the same college scouting and personnel staff that Sherman did. Second, I don’t blame Sherman at all for accepting the responsibility of the GM job. That error belongs to Harlan and to Wolf, because he endorsed it.
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
  12. 13 Times Champs

    13 Times Champs Cheesehead

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    Didn't he lock the scouts out of the draft room on draft day?
     
  13. Lunchboxer

    Lunchboxer Guest

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    OF all those players I know/remember

    Javon Walker ( I remember he had 1 good season ) Kampmann, Nick Barnett, and Scott Wells

    Everyone else nope.
     
  14. Bagadeez04

    Bagadeez04 Cheesehead

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    I just think it's best to keep those roles in the hands of two different people...kind of like separation of powers in a democratic/parliamentarian government.

    By dividing up powers amongst two different people, it ensures that one guy can't screw it up all by himself. Doesn't mean that two guys can't screw it up though. :p
     
  15. toolkien

    toolkien Cheesehead

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    Sherman may be old news, but there's certainly continuing information about his style as a coach for us to use. We can see the same exact problems the Packers had in Texas A & M, too much love and soft soaping of the offense and disregard for the defense. Sherman spent too much of his time currying the offense at the expense of the defense, but when the time came for his offense to put up or shut up, he would let it off the hook lest the poor babies get a condition. The most infamous play of the Sherman Era, 4th and 26, traces back a little earlier in the game when Sherman pussed put and didn't go for it on 4th and foot and a half. He punted, the ball went into the endzone, netted about 18 yards of field position, which motivated his GM half to trade up for a punter, and the consequent 4th and 26 had him scapegoat Donatell from his HC half. That decision to not go for it with just a foot and a half, in the opponent's territory, to pretty much seal the game and advancement to the NFCCG was the origin of his undoing.

    And yes, it was ultimately Harlan who was responsible for elevating Sherman to both jobs, but it was the fashion at that particular time, and he nipped the problem in the bud - the Packers technically coming off a division winning year, 10-6, and playoff appearance. But a closer inspection of the 2004 season shows what threadbare condition the Packers were in, the decision to let Donatell go not a small factor, and that something needed to be done. That, of course, was to bring Ted Thompson back, which unfortunately led to a string of very sensible decisions that for some reason irritated Favre to the breaking point, since those decisions neglected to take into consideration Favre's desire to turn the Packers into his Buddy Brigade. Of course, as anyone knows, that indignity can only be compensated for by revenge from a division rival. Circling back, Favre's first salvo over the bow of the USS Ted Thompson (circa 2005) was to publicly state that if the intrepid Mike Sherman were not retained, he very likely would not return. So, the first of many steps by Favre driving a wedge between himself and the team was throwing his weight around on Sherman's behalf. At least there was a subsidiary good reason that Favre didn't want to learn a new playbook. $12,000,000, 14% of the payroll, a year only gets you so much effort on that front.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Informative Informative x 2
  16. TJV

    TJV Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    What I posted was old news was Harlan’s concern about Sherman’s obsession with Mike McKenzie finally leading him to bring in Thompson. Whether or not Sherman himself is old news is a different issue.

    As to Harlan’s decision to offer Sherman the GM job, I don’t make any excuse for that. IMO Harlan made two huge contributions to the Packers which cement his legacy in Green Bay. One was his door-to-door tenacity in getting the stadium renovated and the other was recognizing the organization had to be headed by one football man in the VP/GM spot and have that man hire and fire HCs. But like every human, he made mistakes too. One was picking John Jones to replace him in 2007. That one he truly nipped in the bud. But reversing a decision that turned the franchise around and sticking with it for three seasons was a mistake I would not characterize as one he quickly corrected. But the positives on Bob Harlan’s resume far outweigh his mistakes.
     
  17. toolkien

    toolkien Cheesehead

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    It takes 2-3 years to let the previous GM's vision to dissipate and see clearly what you've got on your hands. Once it became clear Sherman was in over his head, there was no way he was given anymore time. The BJ Sander deal and the McKenzie issue weren't until 2004, and by then most of Wolf had flushed out of the system. And Sherman on his own legs was not good and the change was made. In other words, two years gets credited to the prior GM in large part, and by year three you're on your own. After that one year, Sherman was nipped. If your first year is dicey and you're supposed to be nipped, Thompson would have been gone after 2005. But 2005 and 2006 are largely on Sherman, and the pull up out of the nose dive being limited to just those two years was due to that quick assessment and action.

    I don't know the full story of Jones. I've looked for it but have not seen much. Mostly that he was in poor health. I heard that he was a little dictatorial, but then so was Lombardi.

    And for the HC/GM being a mistake, it was, but as I said, it was the fashion. It is the reason Holmgren left. There was a mild revolution going in the late 90's/early 00's and it was happening elsewhere too. So he went with it, despite his own misgivings. And his misgivings are probably why he cut it short, relatively speaking.
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
  18. Wood Chipper

    Wood Chipper Fantasy Football Guru

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    This is a very interesting thread. Lots of information :)
     
  19. TJV

    TJV Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    Regarding Jones from everything I heard and read at the time, his health was an excuse: There was a mini-mutiny among the front office staff - Jones was apparently the opposite of the affable Harlan. But as I said that was quickly remedied.

    As excited as I was when Harlan split the two jobs with his hiring of Wolf, I was disappointed with the re-merging of the jobs with the promotion of Sherman. So I was against it from the beginning. Then almost immediately we saw Sherman blunder in free agency with the signing of DE Joe Johnson, a player on the downside of his career for a $36M contract. While his draft blunders didn't become apparent right away, his mishandling of the cap certainly did. So IMO the signs Sherman was in way over his head - he had never trained for the GM role - were apparent very early. And not only that but an important reason to split the jobs is not to have the GM take the short-term view of a HC because that can have long-lasting negative effects and that's precisely what we saw in Sherman as GM.

    I think what happened was Harlan REALLY liked Sherman. And for good reason: Sherman had a great appreciation of the Packers tradition, a work ethic second to none, and he's a very good person (as far as I can tell). I think Harlan let his personal feelings get in the way of the business sense that led him to changing the structure of the organization in the first place. Even when he hired Thompson he did so on the condition that Thompson would have to work with Sherman - Ted did not have the option of firing Sherman before the 2005 season. In hindsight I'm glad Sherman was such an a$$ to Thompson that Harlan saw the wisdom of Sherman's firing after the 2005 season.

    BTW, IMO the argument/excuse that it was "the fashion" is one of the worst that could be advanced. To me it's analogous to the child's excuse that 'everyone else is doing it'.



    But it all worked out: The structure of the organization is again corrected. The GM's decade plus of training for the job is on display. He has complete control of football operations and the HC can concentrate solely on those duties. (Except that this is the "deadest" time in the season, I wouldn't spend this much time on it.)
     
  20. adambr2

    adambr2 Cheesehead

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    I think what angered me most about Sherman is his refusal to take responsibility for his mistakes. MM is always willing to do that.

    I believe in Bubba Franks' rookie year, Sherman completely threw him under the bus after one game.

    I lost all respect for him when he scapegoated Ed Donatell for 4th and 26. Donatell was a good coordinator. Slowik was a disaster.

    Worst GM in franchise history.
     
    • Old Old x 1
  21. PackMan13x

    PackMan13x Cheesehead

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    Oh, I certainly remember Ahmad Carroll and Joey Thomas. Talk about terrible..the day we abruptly cut Carroll after a terrible game was a glorious day.
     
  22. PWT

    PWT Cheesehead

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    Thx Jack Vainisi posted about John Jones. "Regarding Jones from everything I heard and read at the time, his health was an excuse: There was a mini-mutiny among the front office staff - Jones was apparently the opposite of the affable Harlan. But as I said that was quickly remedied."

    one should never talk or post about person medical problems. There is Federal law protecting right to privacy of patient's medical problems and medical records. Even Packer management was not informed about Jack Jones medical problems in late 2006 into 2007. John Jones had number of months of medical leave of Absence during 1 year probation period before his position president & CEO was to be made permanent.

    After John Jones was approved to return to his position with Packers by his doctors. . The Packers decided not to make John Jones Packer president CEO at end of his 1 year probation period.

    There was legal settlement between the Packers and John Jones. John Jones would have to have news conference and explain why he was leaving his postion of Packer President and CEO. And Packer would pay John Jones his compensation for his last two years of his 3 year contract with Packers. And Packer agreed to keep silent on John Jones medical records issue.

    Bob Harlan and the Packers handled the John Jones situation perfectly.
    I believe John Jones is retired . From time to time John Jones has spoken out in public about types of medical problems he encountered in 2006 and 2007 in order to help other persons who have encounted similar medical problems such as he had to deal with.
     
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  23. TJV

    TJV Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    And then you do exactly that. :rolleyes:

    I'll type it again: It was reported that the employees at 1265 vehemently did not want Jones to take over Harlan's spot. Bob Harlan did not handle the Jones situation perfectly. IMO he never should have been in line to take the top spot.

    You are wrong for a couple of reasons. Just for your information, this is from HHS.gov regarding the HIPPA privacy requirements:

    "The Privacy and Security Rules apply only to covered entities. Individuals, organizations, and agencies that meet the definition of a covered entity under HIPAA must comply with the Rules' requirements to protect the privacy and security of health information and must provide individuals with certain rights with respect to their health information. If an entity is not a covered entity, it does not have to comply with the Privacy Rule or the Security Rule." (The site added the bold emphasis.)

    There is no federal law regarding individuals talking, posting, or writing about the health issues of others except regarding laws against libel and slander. Even in those defamation actions, keep in mind Jones was a "public figure" which would raise the burden of proof for him.

    Finally, I typed, said, alleged, proposed that the issue of Jones' health was an excuse, therefore inferring he was a jerk, which has nothing to do with any medical problem he may have had or has. (And keep in mind a person can be a jerk and have health problems.) You OTOH, posted much more about Jones' health issues than I did.
     

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