Guys, enjoy watching the SB knowing that

[morningwood]

the Pac has an excellent chance of making it to the Big Show next year. Seriously, as a Saints' fan the Pac was the team that caused me the most concern heading into the playoffs.

I sincerely believe the Pac is lock for the North next year. The Vikes won't hold up under the pressure of the upcoming QB drama. It's one thing to wait on a guy who has never played for you. It's an entirely different thing to wait on YOUR QB as he positions himself to avoid training camp. Besides, it will be in the back of their minds that no matter what happens, in the end they are going to choke.

The Bears will be better, but they have a lot of holes, and no draft picks to work with.

The Lions, well they are moving in the right direction but they were starting on their own one yard line.

Outside of the division, I think you can't deny the talent on the Cowboys -- but they will always have the distraction of being the Cowboys. The Cowboys still have to overcome the team's personality flaw -- that they are a collection of individuals with no concept of team. Jerry Jones should be enough to make sure that problem continues.

Of course I am a Saints' homer, but I sincerely believe we are built for a long run of winning seasons. To be honest, our D has done a great job of doing what is necessary but we do not have a dominating D. Hopefully with a few good moves the D can continue to improve.

Look for a Saints v. Pac NFCCG next year.

 

[packerfan191]

I will say right off that I am pulling for the Saints in the Super Bowl. I think it would be really neat to see them win the Super Bowl after everything they have been through with the hurricane a couple years ago.

As far as next year goes for the Pack in the Super Bowl. I can definitely see that happening. We have a very young and talented team and I can't wait to see what they do next year.

 

[Green_Bay_Packers]

I loved the part when you said the Lions would be starting from there own 1 yard line

 

[PackersRS]

Thanks for the kind words man.

I can also envision that future, but somethings must be corrected.

You'll have to find a S (Sharper won't play for long) and IMHO a pass rusher (your both guys are really good, but if I'm not mistaken they're old, and aren't that dominant). Your cornerbacks are fine.

And we'll have to find a way to go against elite qbs who get rid of the ball quickly, and some OL to hold Rodgers together.

I think both situations can be adressed this offseason, putting both teams on a great path for the future.

I also believe the Cowboys are a team to be worried about, but the thing is, they're overrated. They're very good, make no mistake. But they believe they're the crème de la crème of the NFL, and thus they don't put everything on the table. Their coaching is also very suspect, from that emotional standpoint.

The Eagles are the team that clearly lost their chance.

And AZ, without Kurt, won't go as far...

This, in the NFC

In the AFC, I think the Chargers just wasted their window. But with a solid offseason, they can be powerhouses again.

The Colts will be back.

The Steelers will be back.

The Ravens must adress their aging D

And the Patriots must find again their D, as well as some offensive rythm. I think they're two offseasons away from being regular contenders...

 

[NYPacker]

You'll have to find a S (Sharper won't play for long) and IMHO a pass rusher (your both guys are really good, but if I'm not mistaken they're old, and aren't that dominant).

The pass rush is my favorite part about the Saints other than Drew Brees. I've been posting it in other threads about how jealous I am about their ability to get pressure on the QB. Their defense is able to consistently make Qb's uncomfortable in the pocket with only THREE down lineman. Sometimes Williams dials up a 2 man blitz and it's still effective. I remember when we brought in 5 against the Rams and Kyle Boller torched us. Face it the Saints have a lot more going forward than we do. I find that they can in fact win this superbowl and possibly make a repeat next season.

 

[Clay's Jock Strap]

Thanks for the kind words man.

I can also envision that future, but somethings must be corrected.

You'll have to find a S (Sharper won't play for long) and IMHO a pass rusher (your both guys are really good, but if I'm not mistaken they're old, and aren't that dominant). Your cornerbacks are fine.

And we'll have to find a way to go against elite qbs who get rid of the ball quickly, and some OL to hold Rodgers together.

I think both situations can be adressed this offseason, putting both teams on a great path for the future.

I also believe the Cowboys are a team to be worried about, but the thing is, they're overrated. They're very good, make no mistake. But they believe they're the crème de la crème of the NFL, and thus they don't put everything on the table. Their coaching is also very suspect, from that emotional standpoint.

The Eagles are the team that clearly lost their chance.

And AZ, without Kurt, won't go as far...

This, in the NFC

In the AFC, I think the Chargers just wasted their window. But with a solid offseason, they can be powerhouses again.

The Colts will be back.

The Steelers will be back.

The Ravens must adress their aging D

And the Patriots must find again their D, as well as some offensive rythm. I think they're two offseasons away from being regular contenders...

I think that all teams in the league today have holes. I think the Pack have a really good GM and I know we have one of the best QBs in the league who hasn't even scratched the surface of his potential yet in a league where QB play is very disproportionally important. I know that the Pack were one of the teams nobody wanted to play at the end of this year and were the youngest team in the NFL and the young talent will get better.

Every season is a fresh start and there are no guarantees but our team is in a nice position to make a run this year and IMO for a few years.

I like our chances in the next few years.

Even as a Packer "homer" I find it hard to believe that anyone in their right mind would't consider GB one of the top 5 or 6 teams going into 2010 and that is all you can ask for really... To be in a POSITION to contend. This is still an ascending team and at this point, one or two key personnel additions could put them over the top. It is a very exciting time to be a Packer fan - and I have a feeling about this team similar to how I felt around 1994 or 1995.

 

[morningwood]

Thanks guys. I actually think that our answer for the future at FS may already be "in the building." Chip Vaughn was a draft pick from last year who went on IR before the season began. From day one there has been speculation that M. Jenkins would end up at safety, and I think he may be best suited for that role.

W. Smith had one of his best years at DE, but Grant's production has not been the same since he got a big fat contract. He is on IR now, so it will be interesting to see what we do with him.

McCray has been an outstanding compliment to Smith. He has always been known for his ability to get after the QB, but has been suffering from some type of back problem most of the year.

Clancy is a very good run stuffer, but he went on IR very early. We could use a young big DT, but our "backups" have come through big at times. Hargrove is a guy the team loves because he plays like a madman. Still, we could use an upgrade.

Our biggest issue is depth -- when healthy our D can make up for weaknesses through aggression, but in the last quarter of the season injuries piled up and you could really see the drop off. G. Williams took a bad D and made a huge difference, but we still have some work to do. There is just not a big margin for error with the D.

It's amazing what a key player here and there will do, and I have high hopes that another year of focusing on the D will eliminate some of those "oh crap" moments.

 

[Clay's Jock Strap]

Thanks guys. I

I'd LOVE to play the Saints in the NFCC game next year MW because that would mean that we had a great year and that we are one win from going to the SB. One request though... Can we play the game at Lambeau?? LOL

 

[PackersRS]

The pass rush is my favorite part about the Saints other than Drew Brees. I've been posting it in other threads about how jealous I am about their ability to get pressure on the QB. Their defense is able to consistently make Qb's uncomfortable in the pocket with only THREE down lineman. Sometimes Williams dials up a 2 man blitz and it's still effective. I remember when we brought in 5 against the Rams and Kyle Boller torched us. Face it the Saints have a lot more going forward than we do. I find that they can in fact win this superbowl and possibly make a repeat next season.

They're agressive and confusing. But their edge rushers are lacking. Just listen to what the Saints fan said.

They were actually behind us in sacks during the season, and they were 26th in passing D.

But they have a ball hawking secondary that makes up for the mistakes, plus they were hampered by injuries in there.

They didn't sack Favre, remember that. They hit him, but they didn't sack him. That, to me, tells more about their agressiveness compared to us than theyr pass rush...

 

[morningwood]

I'd LOVE to play the Saints in the NFCC game next year MW because that would mean that we had a great year and that we are one win from going to the SB. One request though... Can we play the game at Lambeau?? LOL

Hah, even September may be too cold for us to play in GB. I honestly don't see that changing.

 

[Hauschild]

They're agressive and confusing. But their edge rushers are lacking. Just listen to what the Saints fan said.

They were actually behind us in sacks during the season, and they were 26th in passing D.

But they have a ball hawking secondary that makes up for the mistakes, plus they were hampered by injuries in there.

They didn't sack Favre, remember that. They hit him, but they didn't sack him. That, to me, tells more about their agressiveness compared to us than theyr pass rush...

Agreed, but the problem is Manning is more protected by the league than Favre because he's a crier - and criers eventually get their way. Anything close to ticky-tack will get called on NO's defense - if for not Manning's whining, for make-up for what happend to Brett.

 

[Clay's Jock Strap]

Agreed, but the problem is Manning is more protected by the league than Favre because he's a crier - and criers eventually get their way. Anything close to ticky-tack will get called on NO's defense - if for not Manning's whining, for make-up for what happend to Brett.

You just can't help yourself can you? Funny but I have NEVER seen a ref help Manning up from the ground or help him tuck his pads back in - EVER.

And in your own post you contradict yourself but you are such a favre slobber you can't see it. You say that Manning is MORE protected by the league than favre but then the league is going to call the game closer with hits on Manning to make up for what happened to favre? WTF?? Are you crappin' me? So, Manning gets more protection and this week he'll be protected even more to make it up to the brINTster? Wow man, just wow.

 

[NYPacker]

They're agressive and confusing. But their edge rushers are lacking. Just listen to what the Saints fan said.

They were actually behind us in sacks during the season, and they were 26th in passing D.

But they have a ball hawking secondary that makes up for the mistakes, plus they were hampered by injuries in there.

They didn't sack Favre, remember that. They hit him, but they didn't sack him. That, to me, tells more about their agressiveness compared to us than theyr pass rush...

I believe that the saints did a great job based on the fact that they faced the premier o-lines this season: Eagles, Giants, Jets, Dolphins, Patriots, Cowboys. Compare that to the top 6 on our schedule: Bears (twice), Viqueens (twice), Cowboys, Baltimore. It's a no brainer that we had more sacks than they did. And plus hits on a qb can actually rattle them just as much as a sack would so I'm impressed that they actually got to Favre. We however barely touched him and even had one game where we allowed him 8 seconds in the pocket.

 

[PackersRS]

I believe that the saints did a great job based on the fact that they faced the premier o-lines this season: Eagles, Giants, Jets, Dolphins, Patriots, Cowboys. Compare that to the top 6 on our schedule: Bears (twice), Viqueens (twice), Cowboys, Baltimore. It's a no brainer that we had more sacks than they did. And plus hits on a qb can actually rattle them just as much as a sack would so I'm impressed that they actually got to Favre. We however barely touched him and even had one game where we allowed him 8 seconds in the pocket.

We barely touched him because of our DC, not because of our pass rush.

I'm not saying we have a very good pass rush, because we don't.

But it's much more because of what Capers called that we didn't get to Favre and Warner.

Williams dished out blitzes after blitzes, and their rushers kept hitting Favre, regardless if their secondary was getting torched. Because they knew that, old as he was, he would eventually pay the price. Moreso, Williams knew that Favre had a vast comprehension of NFL defenses, and that by just rushing 3 or 4, he would be torched.

So he picked his poison, and it turned out fine.

As for Capers, he picked the wrong poison...

 

[NYPacker]

We barely touched him because of our DC, not because of our pass rush.

I'm not saying we have a very good pass rush, because we don't.

But it's much more because of what Capers called that we didn't get to Favre and Warner.

Williams dished out blitzes after blitzes, and their rushers kept hitting Favre, regardless if their secondary was getting torched. Because they knew that, old as he was, he would eventually pay the price. Moreso, Williams knew that Favre had a vast comprehension of NFL defenses, and that by just rushing 3 or 4, he would be torched.

So he picked his poison, and it turned out fine.

As for Capers, he picked the wrong poison...

If I remember correctly Capers dialed up 4-5 man blitzes in the beginning but when he saw that it didn't work he gave up. What else could he do? Our guys just aren't that athletic enough to overpower lineman into the backfield. Matthews is but just 1 guy won't be enough. Williams on the other hand doesn't always blitz. He has the freedom to bring 3 or maybe 2 because he knows that's all it takes for his team to pressure the Qb. If Williams were the D-coordinator of Green Bay right know I think we would still be having the same conversation.

 

[Raptorman]

If I remember correctly Capers dialed up 4-5 man blitzes in the beginning but when he saw that it didn't work he gave up. What else could he do? Our guys just aren't that athletic enough to overpower lineman into the backfield. Matthews is but just 1 guy won't be enough. Williams on the other hand doesn't always blitz. He has the freedom to bring 3 or maybe 2 because he knows that's all it takes for his team to pressure the Qb. If Williams were the D-coordinator of Green Bay right know I think we would still be having the same conversation.

The myth of blitzing Favre. The Saints ran into the same thing the Packer did. When they blitzed, that is when Brett burned them.

Williams nearly blitzed New Orleans out of the Super Bowl. The Vikings had nine expected-passing downs in the second half: second-and-long or third-and-long. Williams called big blitzes on seven, and the result was one incompletion, six first downs and 125 yards gained by Minnesota. On two of the long-yardage downs, Williams called a conventional four-man rush. The result was Favre's two interceptions.

It's when they didn't blitz that they did better. If the Saints can't get to Manning with 4 he will pick them apart. He is much better at it then Brett.

 

[Clay's Jock Strap]

The myth of blitzing Favre. The Saints ran into the same thing the Packer did. When they blitzed, that is when Brett burned them.



It's when they didn't blitz that they did better. If the Saints can't get to Manning with 4 he will pick them apart. He is much better at it then Brett.

It's not blitzing him it's blitzing him effectively. If you blitz him but don't get home it is worse than sitting back and playing zone. The one thing that has always rattled favre is hitting him. It makes him hurry his throws and make mistakes - but that said, that is a pretty common recipe for success in frustrating a QB.

 

[PackersRS]

If I remember correctly Capers dialed up 4-5 man blitzes in the beginning but when he saw that it didn't work he gave up. What else could he do? Our guys just aren't that athletic enough to overpower lineman into the backfield. Matthews is but just 1 guy won't be enough. Williams on the other hand doesn't always blitz. He has the freedom to bring 3 or maybe 2 because he knows that's all it takes for his team to pressure the Qb. If Williams were the D-coordinator of Green Bay right know I think we would still be having the same conversation.

The myth of blitzing Favre. The Saints ran into the same thing the Packer did. When they blitzed, that is when Brett burned them.



It's when they didn't blitz that they did better. If the Saints can't get to Manning with 4 he will pick them apart. He is much better at it then Brett.

Well, if that's the case, than I stand correct.

However, one thing I'm pretty sure they did, was call bump and run coverage. Delaying the routes of the receivers gives the DL more time to get to the QB.

And given some of our players' lack in the zone coverage, it burned us. Specially against Warner.

And another thing, Saints defenders kept gitting Favre, regardless if the ball was out or not. We didn't.

 

[Raptorman]

Well, if that's the case, than I stand correct.

However, one thing I'm pretty sure they did, was call bump and run coverage. Delaying the routes of the receivers gives the DL more time to get to the QB.

And given some of our players' lack in the zone coverage, it burned us. Specially against Warner.

And another thing, Saints defenders kept gitting Favre, regardless if the ball was out or not. We didn't.

That's because they were willing to accept some 15 yard penalties for getting to him. They wanted to make him "hurt". And if they knocked him out of the game, so be it. It was evident in the way they played the game and in the comments by their DC about the upcoming game.

 

[Clay's Jock Strap]

That's because they were willing to accept some 15 yard penalties for getting to him. They wanted to make him "hurt". And if they knocked him out of the game, so be it. It was evident in the way they played the game and in the comments by their DC about the upcoming game.

If favre comes back next year I suspect that several DCs will be willing to take a couple 15 yarders to make him "hurt" as well. It doesn't have to be dirty either. just hard nosed, aggressive football.

 

[NYPacker]

Well, if that's the case, than I stand correct.

However, one thing I'm pretty sure they did, was call bump and run coverage. Delaying the routes of the receivers gives the DL more time to get to the QB.

And given some of our players' lack in the zone coverage, it burned us. Specially against Warner.

And another thing, Saints defenders kept gitting Favre, regardless if the ball was out or not. We didn't.

Not necessarily... I only saw like 3 plays from that game where that happened. One of them was the missed call against the ankles when he was hit. However the rest was a result of agressive pass rush. Other than that there were times where I saw Will Smith almost about to hit Brett but rather slowed down and stopped. There was even an instance where he tripped Favre but as he was about to fall down, grabbed Favre's shoulders and helped him keep his balance.

 

[Clay's Jock Strap]

Not necessarily... I only saw like 3 plays from that game where that happened. One of them was the missed call against the ankles when he was hit. However the rest was a result of agressive pass rush. Other than that there were times where I saw Will Smith almost about to hit Brett but rather slowed down and stopped. There was even an instance where he tripped Favre but as he was about to fall down, grabbed Favre's shoulders and helped him keep his balance.

NY - the official stat in the game was that favre was hit 17 or 18 times with no sacks. That was about 1/3 of his drop backs. He was hit a LOT and HARD. I am not in agreement with those who think the Saints played dirty - I think they played hard-nosed ball and they were flagged a few times because they were treating the QB like just another football player and not a barbie doll. IMO that is the way football was meant to be played and no longer is because it is more about money than it is the game - but that is just my opinion.

But make no mistake, favre was beat up in that game and it was from taking a LOT of shots, some late, most not late - but since he was never sacked I'd say that nearly all of them were close.

 

[NYPacker]

NY - the official stat in the game was that favre was hit 17 or 18 times with no sacks. That was about 1/3 of his drop backs. He was hit a LOT and HARD. I am not in agreement with those who think the Saints played dirty - I think they played hard-nosed ball and they were flagged a few times because they were treating the QB like just another football player and not a barbie doll. IMO that is the way football was meant to be played and no longer is because it is more about money than it is the game - but that is just my opinion.

But make no mistake, favre was beat up in that game and it was from taking a LOT of shots, some late, most not late - but since he was never sacked I'd say that nearly all of them were close.

I guess we'll never know whether any of those hits were based on when the ball was out of his hand. However your post is what I'm trying to get at exactly, that the saints pass rush is 10 times better than us because their personnel can get to the Qb a lot better than ours. I'm not saying that Williams is a bad D-coordinator but if Capers had D-lineman like that to work with instead of Jenkins, Pickett and Jolly the results stem in his favor.

 

[morningwood]

Good luck figuring out the Saints' D. They are a bit of an enigma even for someone who has watched every game. Part of that is definitely due to injuries. When you have a stretch where 4 of 5 of your best corners were out, it's going to have an effect on the way the entire D plays. I think that is especially true for this G. Williams D, which puts a lot of stress on the CB's.

Beyond that, we have grown accustomed to the D allowing scores early and then adjusting later in the game. It's certainly not a good habit to have, but it is what it is. They do seem to make the plays and capture momentum at critical points in the game.

You may hear people talking about the Saints' D as smoke and mirrors. I don't know exactly what that means, but I do agree that we make up for a lack of true dominance with aggression and schemes. But that's not a bad thing, it's not like we had a choice between a truly dominating D and the one we have.

We made the improvements through personnel changes that we could, but there is only so much you can do in a season. We have made a HUGE upgrade in the secondary. That unit has gone from pathetic to a real strength.

 

[Clay's Jock Strap]

I guess we'll never know whether any of those hits were based on when the ball was out of his hand. However your post is what I'm trying to get at exactly, that the saints pass rush is 10 times better than us because their personnel can get to the Qb a lot better than ours. I'm not saying that Williams is a bad D-coordinator but if Capers had D-lineman like that to work with instead of Jenkins, Pickett and Jolly the results stem in his favor.

When you run the 34, it isn't the job of the DL to get to the QB. Bare minimum they need to neutralize their man or hopefully 2 men to allow free lanes for the OLB to flow to the QB. At NT if you can collapse the pocket from the interior it is a huge plus but again, it is a bonus. So obviously, comparing the Saints and the Packers is apples and oranges. In this scheme if our DL is exceeding expectations for their positional assignments and reaching the QB it is going to be a REALLY long day for the opposing offense because that means the LBers are not even being picked up.

What this D needs to make it to the next level is a bookend for CMIII on the other side and another ILB that can both rush the passer and not be a liability in coverage. If the DL plays like they did last year and you can clone CMIII on the other side it will make all the difference in the world.