Gutekunst vs Thompson

[swhitset]

and I would add there are certain posters prone to emotional outbursts without much thought, so take their non factually supported outbursts for what they're worth. one can hope they grow out of it one day.

I’m often surprised to find out that those that I’m thinking must be 12 years old and having a tantrum .... turn out to be older than me... and I’m 49 years old.

 

[GleefulGary]

I get the line play, but who or what is the new 'alone'?

Lol. Whoops!

I meant a new offensive scheme, aka coach, will only help.

 

[PackAttack12]

Awful pick at number 12 Gute, awful!!

This is one big squandered pick you just made and it's no help to reenergizing or retooling the offense for Rodgers and LaFleur.

First you screwed up by trading last year's pick to the Saints and passing up on Derwin James, and now you fail to get a rock solid OL or speedster playmaker in our 12th rounder.

Wtf are you doing? Getting your advice from Ted Thompson?

Man, enough of this garbage.

This pick could be this years Malik McDowell.

Let the INSANITY continue

Grape. Fruit. Gute. Is not to be questioned.

 

[LambeauLombardi]

At least Ted was good for about 4 years. Gute may not have 1 good year. This is a ******* embarrassment.

I want to take back what I said. I think Gute has put together a real solid team to make a deep playoff run this year and that's all you can ask from a GM. Looking back on the Gary pick now, I should have looked at more than sacks at his position. He rated real well on PFF and is a real good run defender from what I've heard. The defense has a chance to be scary good this year and if Aaron stays healthy (I know, big if) we know what the offense can do. I'm back on the bandwagon if there's room... LFG!!!

 

[OldSchool101]

Gute is far more aggressive than TT. Almost to the point of being the inverse.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Gute is far more aggressive than TT. Almost to the point of being the inverse.

A good deal of that is situational. How much remains to be seen.

Thompson was quite aggressive leading up to the Super Bowl season, as evidenced in the year-by-year highlights of the major moves in the following link:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Thompson

In 2005, the team was over the cap and Thompson declined to re-sign several starters. In addition to the names mentioned, Thompson did not re-sign Paris Lenon, a 12 game starter at LB in the previous season. He drafted Rodgers, a controversial pick, not just because of Favre being in place but because of all the needs at other positions. Thompson also brought in several street free agents during the season as injuries racked up, not unlike what I call Gutekunst's "draft 2.0" last season where he brought in several former draft picks off the street during the season.

In 2006, after dropping from 10-6 in 2004 to 4-12 in 2005, he brought in McCarthy, an OC with no head coaching experience. He had accumulated cap space and signed a bunch of free agents, including Woodson, Pickett and Manuel. Thompson's second season closely parallels Gurtekunst's. We can hope Gutekunst's second draft is as good as Thompson's where he landed Hawk, Jennings, Colledge, Spitz and Jolly.

We can go on from there, particularly in 2009 when he hired Capers, swithched to the 3-4, parted ways with Kampman and drafted Raji and Matthews for that new defense. Lang was also drafted.

By 2011, "the best player available" concept for the draft was all but gone, if it was ever truly in place, with top picks being need picks, and Thompson started to lose his draft mojo.

The approach taken when climbing the hill can be quite different than than one taken once you reach the top as risk aversion sets in.

 

[LambeauLombardi]

A good deal of that is situational. How much remains to be seen.

Thompson was quite aggressive leading up to the Super Bowl season, as evidenced in the year-by-year highlights of the major moves in the following link:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Thompson

In 2005, the team was over the cap and Thompson declined to re-sign several starters. In addition to the names mentioned, Thompson did not re-sign Paris Lenon, a 12 game starter at LB in the previous season. He drafted Rodgers, a controversial pick, not just because of Favre being in place but because of all the needs at other positions. Thompson also brought in several street free agents during the season as injuries racked up, not unlike what I call Gutekunst's "draft 2.0" last season where he brought in several former draft picks off the street during the season.

In 2006, after dropping from 10-6 in 2004 to 4-12 in 2005, he brought in McCarthy, an OC with no head coaching experience. He had accumulated cap space and signed a bunch of free agents, including Woodson, Pickett and Manuel. Thompson's second season closely parallels Gurtekunst's. We can hope Gutekunst's second draft is as good as Thompson's where he landed Hawk, Jennings, Colledge, Spitz and Jolly.

We can go on from there, particularly in 2009 when he hired Capers, swithched to the 3-4, parted ways with Kampman and drafted Raji and Matthews for that new defense. Lang was also drafted.

By 2011, "the best player available" concept for the draft was all but gone, if it was ever truly in place, with top picks being need picks, and Thompson started to lose his draft mojo.

The approach taken when climbing the hill can be quite different than than one taken once you reach the top as risk aversion sets in.

Favre's contract when Thompson took over was ginormous. He did one hell of a job to get that team 1 game away from the Super Bowl in 3 years with so many new faces.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

The approach taken when climbing the hill can be quite different than than one taken once you reach the top as risk aversion sets in.

THIS...sums it up quite well. Some people seem to only want to talk about TT's final years in GB too often when grading the overall job that he did. Hard to ignore what he did in his first 7-10 years. Yes, he probably coasted and rested on his laurels once he had built a solid team, but a few lucky breaks, a few less injuries and a few less failed draft picks and the Packers would have hoisted at least one more Lombardi under TT's leadership.

I would sum up his Legacy as him being an excellent Driver, but he seemed to fall asleep at the wheel and run out of gas in his final few years. The results, a once great team spirally downward due to a lack of overall talent. "Blame" Rodgers for covering up some of those deficiencies and Murphy for not seeing that and jumping in to make a change a year or 2 earlier than he did.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Favre's contract when Thompson took over was ginormous. He did one hell of a job to get that team 1 game away from the Super Bowl in 3 years with so many new faces.

The point was that by 2011 Thompson had gotten quite conservative and risk averse. The early days of "creative destruction" were over. Gutekunst, coming off two losing seasons, is rightly in that creative destruction mode, shedding former and aging stars. Perhaps he should have not hedged his bets in year 1 with the Graham signing, something I objected to at the time, but he's on the right track now. It's hard to begrudge that signing when the "win now" pressure must have been immense. It is still immense, but at least now he's gone all in on young FAs where there's multi-year visibility.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

The point was that by 2011 Thompson had gotten quite conservative and risk averse. The early days of "creative destruction" were over. Gutekunst, coming off two losing seasons, is rightly in that creative destruction mode, shedding former and aging stars. Perhaps he should have not hedged his bets in year 1 with the Graham signing, something I objected to at the time, but he's on the right track now. It's hard to begrudge that signing when the "win now" pressure must have been immense. It is still immense, but at least now he's gone all in on young FAs where there's multi-year visibility.

I think Gute and most of us were a bit delusional on just how far the Packers had fallen off of being a powerhouse. He saw what Rodgers did when he had Cook and felt that Graham was more than an adequate replacement and the offense would be fine. The problem was, TT had let pretty much every other position get very thin in talent. Appears that Gute has realized this and is trying to field a team with deeper talent and experience.

 

[HardRightEdge]

[Thompson] he probably coasted and rested on his laurels once he had built a solid team....

I don't look at it quite that way, as though it was some kind of complacency.

I probably overstated his risk aversion in that earlier post. His risks took on a different form.

He started drafting guys to play positions that started looking like reaches to fill immediate needs, counting on athleticism to make the conversion, Perry at 3-4 OLB when he better projected to 4-3 DE, Randall at CB when he better projected to safety.

He started emphasizing all those ex-basketball players counting on athleticism to get them to their upside projection. Rollins in the second round was a prime example, a guy who played four years of basketball at Miami of Ohio, then one year of football in this second tier conference.

Maybe if Sherrod, Perry, Rollins, et. al., had not been finally or chronically injured the outcome might have been different. The Collins, Finley and Shields injuries added successive pressures along the way to do things Thompson might not have considered optimal in filling new needs. But it does seem to me that reaching in the first round on upper pick projections to back and fill to stay on top set up a chain reaction through the draft board leading to the overall erosion of the roster.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I think Gute and most of us were a bit delusional on just how far the Packers had fallen off of being a powerhouse.

Not all of us. My assessment at this time last season was that this was not a championship caliber roster. I can't say I expected a losing record.

It still isn't a championship roster unless all these FAs perform up to their contracts combined with an unusual number of second/third year jumps and all-rookie performances. The object now should be getting back to a winning record. If the pieces all fall into place, then more, but that's a hope and not an expectation.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Favre's contract when Thompson took over was ginormous. He did one hell of a job to get that team 1 game away from the Super Bowl in 3 years with so many new faces.

It's probably worth noting that Favre's cap number in 2005 was $9.5 mil against an $85.5 mil league cap, about 11%, high but not egregiously so. Rodgers is at about 13.5% including the cap carryover, about a $5 mil difference in today's cap dollars, not exactly a major difference maker.

So, yeah, this is a Thompson year one and two / Gutekunst year two parallel: shed veteran players by not re-signing them or cutting them and signing FAs in a rebuilding process.

 

[LambeauLombardi]

It's probably worth noting that Favre's cap number in 2005 was $9.5 mil against an $85.5 mil league cap, about 11%, high but not egregiously so. Rodgers is at about 13.5% including the cap carryover, about a $5 mil difference in today's cap dollars, not exactly a major difference maker.

So, yeah, this is a Thompson year one and two / Gutekunst year two parallel: shed veteran players by not re-signing them or cutting them and signing FAs in a rebuilding process.

Not to mention the 05-07 drafts were very good too, and the one big free agent move he made was a home run in Woodson.

I actually had real high hopes going into last year, but Clay and Cobb were worse than I expected and obviously Aaron was injured. Hopefully Josh Jackson can mature more this year.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Not to mention the 05-07 drafts were very good too, and the one big free agent move he made was a home run in Woodson.

"But there's more!", in that period. I already covered those years if you read back a few posts.

 

[PackerfaninCarolina]

I think it's been a dead horse beaten over and over that Thompson had it right early on. The problem later on was obviously a disconnect between him and Capers and focusing too much on defense without giving the offense enough depth if certain starters like Jordy went down. Plus his health perhaps affecting his ability to evaluate which players best fit MM or Capers's schemes.

I think most people right now want to see the front office's focus return to adding star power to the offense either in the form of a tall deep threat ball snagging WR, or the short pass ankle breaker guy to rack up chunk yards. Hence the restlessness.

 

[Wi. Mike now in Florida]

Whatever the problem(s) were, let's look ahead for better times in 2019-20 season with new blood
at the controls and stand behind them through thick and thin.

Are you ready for some football????

 

[HardRightEdge]

I think it's been a dead horse beaten over and over that Thompson had it right early on. The problem later on was obviously a disconnect between him and Capers and focusing too much on defense without giving the offense enough depth if certain starters like Jordy went down.

Focusing "too much" on the defense would have been OK, as it was in 2009-2010, had the players been good enough to be a #2 defense as in those earlier seasons. But those later picks simply didn't work out. Saying there was a GM-DC "disconnect" is too charitable to both parties.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Are you ready for some football????

Five days to preseason, which is kinda like football. I view it as a war of attrition. Guys making good plays against 2nd. stringers, 3rd. stringers trying to make a practice squad, and camp bodies in the 4th. quarter should be viewed with some circumspection, better than a sharp stick in the eye, but far from certain indication of what they will do in money games.

Not making plays, or making bad plays, under the same circumstances might tell you something about that guy's fate.

 

[PackerfaninCarolina]

Focusing "too much" on the defense would have been OK, as it was in 2009-2010, had the players been good enough to be a #2 defense as in those earlier seasons. But those later picks simply didn't work out. Saying there was a GM-DC "disconnect" is too charitable to both parties.

A feud maybe then? Honestly it's a circle fire debate because one could argue on the one hand that Capers purposefully decided to misuse TT's players, which I think he did in some instances. The other side is that TT didn't understand what kind of players Capers was looking for and was picking too many non 3-4 players or what have you. I think there was both going on. But disconnect ... feud ... abomination ... pick your terms.

 

[HardRightEdge]

A feud maybe then? Honestly it's a circle fire debate because one could argue on the one hand that Capers purposefully decided to misuse TT's players, which I think he did in some instances. The other side is that TT didn't understand what kind of players Capers was looking for and was picking too many non 3-4 players or what have you. I think there was both going on. But disconnect ... feud ... abomination ... pick your terms.

I call it neither doing a good job for a good while.

 

[PackAttack12]

Expanding upon @Dantés point in the studs/duds thread, Gute's personnel really made a huge difference last night. Savage made some really good plays. Active and all over the field. Gary made some good plays that won't show up in the box score. Jaire is obviously an absolute stud.

The free agent class of Smith, Smith, Amos made huge difference making plays. JK Scott is one hell of a punter. Scratched my head at the time taking a punter in the 5th round, but it was necessary to build the basic fundamental structure of the football team.

MVS with likely the game breaking offensive play of the night to lead to the Packers scoring its only touchdown. Led the team in receptions. And there's some other promising talent that hasn't gotten their opportunities yet. However, I think Jenkins will be seeing the field sooner rather than later if the interior of that offensive line continues to struggle.

It's admittedly one game in September, but these guys contributed heavily to beating the division champs on the road in the first game of the season. It's got me really excited for the future.