Gruden Resigns/Fired!

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We had an ex football manager turned t.v. punter made a racist remark off camera, but he was still mic`d up. Several of his ex players spoke highly of him, including several black players, but he never worked on T.V. again. These people need to realise they`re not untouchable.
 

Mondio

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What's the bottom line here? Should he have said these things or not as a public face of the NFL? This sounds like the old let-boys-be-boys carp that people toss out there. Had Gruden said this stuff as a young assistant coach or player, he deserves a second chance. As a coach or ESPN announcer he should have known better.

On top of all of it, how was he going to be able to lead a team comprised of black and gay players?
So, should you be held accountable in the court of public opinion for everything you've ever said to another person? it's not just let boys be boys. As far as I can tell it's a few emails from a decade ago. and he didn't say gay people can't play football did he? He said Goodell shouldn't be throwing his weight around and pressuring a certain team to take one. I happen to agree just like I doin't think anybody should be pressuring teams to give Mike Vick or Gordon another chance, but that's probably cause their black and i'm racist...


Let's go thru Goodell's emails. Ownership of every football team. Season ticket holders. Let's dig, let's find. Let's hold accountable. I bet we could find adults in high places saying stuff out Obama, Trump, Biden. President Murphy, their boss, their co-worker, their family member, some guy on TV they never met. We could find them in low places too, all saying some pretty bad things.


I have a much higher threshold, others seem to have a very low one IMO in what words mean. Considering he's led teams of black players for quite a long time, I think the majority are just fine with Chucky the man.
 

Mondio

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We had an ex football manager turned t.v. punter made a racist remark off camera, but he was still mic`d up. Several of his ex players spoke highly of him, including several black players, but he never worked on T.V. again. These people need to realise they`re not untouchable.
and others need to realize not every word a person says in un-excusable or an indictment on their character or a reflection of their life either.
 

thisisnate

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I know nothing for certain, do you?

i know what they presented and see what happened after and I think society is out of control. I'm sure you think the way you do because of your feelings as well, are we not allowed to have thoughts, you can mock me because you think my "feelings" are in the way. I can handle it.

He wasn't fired because he broke rules, he was fired because the media broke a story. You disagree? if you have nothing, then you're right, you can stop wasting time.

Otherwise, i'm still on MY point. Society is out of control. Sit back and judge when the only reason they aren't is nobody is looking that hard.

I know nothing for certain, I made that clear from the get-go. You, however, stated "he was not fired because he broke rules." I think you're saying that he may have broken rules but that his breaking of the rules is not the reason for his being fired. This is again just your feelings, which are irrelevant. I'm not saying you can't have feelings blah blah blah blah blah.

All I'm saying is all that matters to Chuckie's situation is:
- Did he or did he not break rules of his employer?
- Is it within the rights of his employer to discipline him or terminate him given his breaking of the rules?

If the answer to both of these is yes, then the only objection can be that you don't like the rules, which is fine, but not a discussion I care to take part in.

This is pointless though, you can conclude whatever. I say one thing. You say a thing. I say the same thing in different words. You say the same thing in different words. Again. On and on. America in a nutshell.
 
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Pkrjones

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All I'm saying is all that matters to Chuckie's situation is:
- Did he or did he not break rules of his employer?
- Is it within the rights of his employer to discipline him or terminate him given his breaking of the rules?

If the answer to both of these is yes, then the only objection can be that you don't like the rules, which is fine, but not a discussion I care to take part in.
If this is your criteria, or what you interpret the criteria to be... then "NO" he shouldn't be fired.

The emails in question were dated from 2011-very early 2018 when he was working for ESPN. Nothing he did or said regarding Goodell, D. Smith, Obama, Biden or anyone else who are now "offended" was done as an employee of the NFL or the Raiders.

The Raiders can not punish him for deeds prior to his employment with them ~ that's failure on their part to adequately do their due-diligence on him. The NFL can not punish him for comments made when he was employed by ESPN. ESPN has no power as he's no longer their employee. IMHO Gruden should lawyer-up and get his remaining $60MIL from the Raiders OR LVR should rescind their firing.
 

Mondio

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It's not nearly as black and white as you're making it out to be. It's like saying killing is wrong and punishable by death. For a soldier in wartime? for a battered wife? for someone protecting their self or child? There's lots of gray

Is an employer allowed to fire someone for breaking rules, sure. Do we have to accept all rules or think it's suitable? no. If you don't want to partake, then don't.

Is your employer allowed to fire someone for something they don't like? Heck in WI you can fire them for anything including no reason at all in most instances though he had a contract so not as easy.

so the question is, do you think he was fired for breaking a rule? I don't. He wasn't in the employ of the Raiders 10 years ago. They knew of the things he said at least 2 years ago, and again, I didn't find anything he said all that much different than what i've heard from a lot of people over the years who are probably cheering his firing today.

So, why pay him another 20 million dollars in the meantime when you know he "broke a rule" which would be what? don't use a disparaging word? HA, we're all guilty.

The media broke a 10 year old story, that's what happened, if it was even a story back then.
 

thisisnate

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If this is your criteria, or what you interpret the criteria to be... then "NO" he shouldn't be fired.

The emails in question were dated from 2011-very early 2018 when he was working for ESPN. Nothing he did or said regarding Goodell, D. Smith, Obama, Biden or anyone else who are now "offended" was done as an employee of the NFL or the Raiders.

The Raiders can not punish him for deeds prior to his employment with them ~ that's failure on their part to adequately do their due-diligence on him. The NFL can not punish him for comments made when he was employed by ESPN. ESPN has no power as he's no longer their employee. IMHO Gruden should lawyer-up and get his remaining $60MIL from the Raiders OR LVR should rescind their firing.
If he didn't break any rules of his employer (or any laws for that matter though I'm sure every employer has rules about employees committing crimes), then I agree with you, he should not be fired. I think I've been pretty clearly in that camp. But I'm also in the camp that doesn't know what rules his employer has in place. It may pass the straight-face test that there would not be rules referring to work done for other companies, but it wouldn't surprise me to learn otherwise either.
 

milani

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What's the bottom line here? Should he have said these things or not as a public face of the NFL? This sounds like the old let-boys-be-boys carp that people toss out there. Had Gruden said this stuff as a young assistant coach or player, he deserves a second chance. As a coach or ESPN announcer he should have known better.

On top of all of it, how was he going to be able to lead a team comprised of black and gay players?
Well. He knew he intended to coach again someday. Did ESPN know about this back when it happened? I know they have a pick and choose discipline policy there but you would think they would have addressed this then in light of who they are.
 

milani

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It's not nearly as black and white as you're making it out to be. It's like saying killing is wrong and punishable by death. For a soldier in wartime? for a battered wife? for someone protecting their self or child? There's lots of gray

Is an employer allowed to fire someone for breaking rules, sure. Do we have to accept all rules or think it's suitable? no. If you don't want to partake, then don't.

Is your employer allowed to fire someone for something they don't like? Heck in WI you can fire them for anything including no reason at all in most instances though he had a contract so not as easy.

so the question is, do you think he was fired for breaking a rule? I don't. He wasn't in the employ of the Raiders 10 years ago. They knew of the things he said at least 2 years ago, and again, I didn't find anything he said all that much different than what i've heard from a lot of people over the years who are probably cheering his firing today.

So, why pay him another 20 million dollars in the meantime when you know he "broke a rule" which would be what? don't use a disparaging word? HA, we're all guilty.

The media broke a 10 year old story, that's what happened, if it was even a story back then.
Right or wrong the power of the NYT scares so many people that they can gather 10 year old emails.
What's the bottom line here? Should he have said these things or not as a public face of the NFL? This sounds like the old let-boys-be-boys carp that people toss out there. Had Gruden said this stuff as a young assistant coach or player, he deserves a second chance. As a coach or ESPN announcer he should have known better.

On top of all of it, how was he going to be able to lead a team comprised of black and gay players?
Something like that hangs over because innately players or most players will have that in the back of their mind and if not someone like the NYT will forever remind them. It is the modern time. I was called some demeaning terms by coaches and teachers back in the day. It did not bother me then and it does not bother me now.
 

milani

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I know nothing for certain, do you?

i know what they presented and see what happened after and I think society is out of control. I'm sure you think the way you do because of your feelings as well, are we not allowed to have thoughts, you can mock me because you think my "feelings" are in the way. I can handle it.

He wasn't fired because he broke rules, he was fired because the media broke a story. You disagree? if you have nothing, then you're right, you can stop wasting time.

Otherwise, i'm still on MY point. Society is out of control. Sit back and judge when the only reason they aren't is nobody is looking that hard.
I believe you are right. I loved to watch Michael Vick play except against us. But what he did not only was criminal but it should have banned him for life. They gave him a second chance. Would they give Gruden a second chance? I doubt it.
 

milani

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ok, he was employed by ESPN, what's their punishment? they won't air Chucky on TV? good, never cared for sideline shots of coaches anyway.

He wasn't fired for breaking rules, he's fired because a media giant broke a story. That is the issue.

and NO, I don't think disagreeing with someone you work with and calling them a name is grounds for losing your job even if that would be a rule. I have much higher standards.
Most companies do progressive discipline. If it was a player that said that the Union although represented by black players and leaders would still be required legally and by contract to represent the player in defense of his job. Ironic. But I figure the league would suspend first and then after enough pressure from internal and external forces would ban him permanently.
 
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It’s another example of the NFL acting like a bunch of modern day Pharisees. What is this the Office of the Supreme Court?
Did he get a trial?
I truly wish NFL executives would each singularly uphold anywhere near the same level of integrity that they levy on everyone else. Their zero tolerance policies only apply to others.
Posturing only self-condemns Imposters.

I’m going to start by saying I don’t personally like Gruden, just from what I’ve seen. That said, I wish well to Jon Gruden. From many personal accounts he’s acted like a decent human being. Until someone can come forward with substantial proof of Jon Gruden directly mistreating them? Then this is a bunch of bs.
My hope and prayer is that we each live to the same standard that we uphold others to. Wouldn’t that be just perfect !
 

rmontro

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I’m going to start by saying I don’t personally like Gruden, just from what I’ve seen. That said, I wish well to Jon Gruden. From many personal accounts he’s acted like a decent human being. Until someone can come forward with substantial proof of Jon Gruden directly mistreating them? Then this is a bunch of bs.
On some level he got into trouble because he was talking crap about people behind their back. Not a particularly uncommon phenomenon in the world. But the real issue is he used made some non-PC statements.
 
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On some level he got into trouble because he was talking crap about people behind their back. Not a particularly uncommon phenomenon in the world. But the real issue is he used made some non-PC statements.
I know. Its my opinion (granted also without the full details or both arguments) that this was a political move. Jon Gruden rubbed people at the executive level of the NFL. His comments were personal in nature and spoke to politics and likely were either directly or indirectly aimed at one or more members of the “committee”.

This Gruden dismissal wasn’t primarily about race or discrimination as much as those things are being used as cause for his dismissal. The truth is his comments were personal or political (likely both from the sounds of it) and those guys with a temporal influence in the NFL feel the need to silence freedom of speech. Unless, of course, that freedom applies to themselves or their opinions of others.

He’d better go after that remaining contract. He might not be working in this field for awhile on perception alone. I’d split the difference and head to Hawaii with Aaron this offseason. ;)
 
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rmontro

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This Gruden dismissal wasn’t primarily about race or discrimination as much as those things are being used as cause for his dismissal. The truth is his comments were personal or political (likely both from the sounds of it) and those guys with a temporal influence in the NFL feel the need to silence freedom of speech. Unless, of course, that freedom applies to themselves or their opinions of others.
Well, you can't make comments like that in this day and age and stay employed in a high profile public position. Of course, they were from 10 years ago, and were supposedly private emails, but that doesn't seem to matter. I just wonder what the motivation was of whoever leaked them. From what I understand, they were investigating the Washington Football Team for some sort of ****** harassment allegations, and came across these emails?
 
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Pkrjones

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I just wonder what the motivation was of whoever leaked them. From what I understand, they were investigating the Washington Football Team for some sort of ****** harassment allegations, and came across these emails?
I'm guessing Goodell was privvy to these emails & their contents...so not hard to imagine why he'd want Gruden outted. ;)
 

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