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Good article on Thompson

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by PackFanNChiTown, Jul 31, 2013.

  1. AmishMafia

    AmishMafia Cheesehead

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    So, Irvin is a great player so Seattle brings in FAs to replace him. That makes little sense.

    My bet is Irvin playing for GB rides the pine most games except, maybe, special teams.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2014
  2. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    You´ve gotta be kidding!!!
     
  3. easyk83

    easyk83 Cheesehead

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    Are we talking rookie Irvin or the de-juiced too small too slow no explosion Bruce Irvin? Because 2 sacks doesn't exactly make him a one man wrecking crew.
     
  4. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    He played strongside LB this season, not a lot of those guys end up with huge sack numbers.
     
  5. NOMOFO

    NOMOFO Cheesehead

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    ...but 2.5 sacks is better than ZERO sacks for TWO FULL SEASONS (ala- BJ Raji) isn't it? ...not sure...sometimes I'm not good with math.
     
  6. easyk83

    easyk83 Cheesehead

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    It's much better than the 0 sacks Aarong Rodgers has produced... oh wait different position less opportunity to produce sacks.... shucks!
     
  7. easyk83

    easyk83 Cheesehead

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    And he was frequently used as a pass rush specialist, your argument is invalid.
     
  8. NOMOFO

    NOMOFO Cheesehead

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    No...like I said earlier...I watched with my very own eyes BJ Raji rack up every single one of those zero sacks. My argument could not be more valid. He-was-not-good.
     
  9. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    The Seahawks mostly rush the passer with their front four, where Irvin played last year and had three times as many pass rushes than this year.
     
  10. rodell330

    rodell330 Cheesehead

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    so why was he riding the pine?
     
  11. Jordyruns

    Jordyruns Cheesehead

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    Jones, I would say a combination of the injury and being a bit overwhelmed as a rookie dlineman going against veteran olineman. Jones has not been a home run pick, yet, but by no means is he a bust yet.

    Irvin is a worse pick than Jones, considering he is very undersized and can only rush the passer.
     
  12. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    Irvin only rushed the passer on 20% of his snaps this season. Datone on 75% of his snaps though.
     
  13. Jordyruns

    Jordyruns Cheesehead

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    I don't have numbers, I have no idea where to find them without paying, just going by what the draft said about him and what we saw last year when we faced them. If he has become a run stuffer then I am shocked and my point above is mute (depending on how effective he is against the run.)

    My point about Daniels being much improved from year one to year two remains though. I'm sure this time last year you were labeling Daniels a bust and wasted pick based on your feelings on Jones.
     
  14. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    I have never labeled Jones a bust, just said Irvin is the better player at the moment.
     
  15. easyk83

    easyk83 Cheesehead

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    Good post, I stand corrected.
     
  16. easyk83

    easyk83 Cheesehead

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    Im beginning to doubt that you actually watch the Packers play. You do realize that Raji was very rarely employed in pass rush oriented sets or in obvious passing situations, right?
     
  17. Sunshinepacker

    Sunshinepacker Cheesehead

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    Why do we always focus only on sacks? Just remember Matthews' performance in 2011. If you look at how many times Irvin rushed the passer and how often those rushes resulted in pressure on the QB (not just sacks), Irvin was barely behind Von Miller in applying pressure per pass rush. This year, from linebacker, he pressured the QB (sack, hit, hurry) on 12.5% of his pass rushes. In his rookie year he was actually LESS productive rushing the QB, but he had more sacks so the easy analysis is that he was better last year when in fact he wasn't.

    Irvin's role also changed this year. He only rushed the passer on 44% of passing snaps. Last year he played DE on passing downs, a role that was taken by Avril and Bennett this year. Irvin was actually a pretty good coverage linebacker this season, he only gave up 13 catches despite being in coverage 144 times during the season.


    Looking at the above, Irvin would CERTAINLY have been a starter for this team at OLB. He played more snaps than Perry despite his suspension and only played 58 fewer snaps than Matthews (and Irvin wasn't a shell of himself when he came back from the suspension). Can you imagine how great it would have been to have a legit pass rush threat opposite Matthews and a linebacker that can actually cover guys?

    It's not a huge surprise that they brought in a defensive end to replace Irvin at defensive end. Irvin weighs 245 lbs, there's no way he can survive long term at defensive end and he always had the speed for linebacker.

    That's also the great thing about Seattle's GM (this isn't a shot at TT, just an observation on Schneider), he saw an opportunity to improve his overall team by looking to build at a position that some would consider a strength. By signing Bennett he improves his dline depth and they get to see if Irvin can move to linebacker. If Irvin had not been able to make the switch, then Seattle fields one of the best pass rushing dlines in the NFL with Avril, Bennett, Irvin and McDonald this year and they don't really care about Bennett only being on a one year deal because they still have Avril and Irvin. As it turns out they discovered that Irvin is a very good linebacker (a quick adjustment assuming he played a full 16 game schedule would make Irvin Pro Football Focus's sixth best 4-3 OLB). So now Seattle knows they have two good outside linebackers in Wright and Irvin and they don't have to sweat losing Bennett as much because Avril and Red Bryant are both pretty good also.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  18. Sunshinepacker

    Sunshinepacker Cheesehead

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    BJ Raji rushed the passer 256 times (including the playoff game) compared to Daniels rushing the passer 356 times (I only include Daniels for comparison). Raji rushed the passer the second most times among our dlinemen.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2014
  19. ThxJackVainisi

    ThxJackVainisi Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    While I agree no one should be cast in a wholly favorable light, this is bad revisionist history. Thompson could not fire Sherman when he became GM/VP. Harlan (incorrectly IMO) made retaining Sherman as HC a condition of any new GM’s accepting the job. And according to Bob Harlan you have it completely arse backwards: Sherman was so upset about being demoted from the GM job it was he who treated Thompson badly, not the other way around. And I don’t believe Thompson gave Sherman a raise, I believe Harlan decided to keep Sherman’s salary the same even though he would only be doing the HC job.
    Thompson had no choice regarding Wahle, and Jerry Jones gave Rivera big money considering his age and talent. Thompson also inherited a team in cap trouble, a problem he fixed pretty quickly. And we seldom read criticism of Thompson’s first draft (the only one while Sherman was HC) and here’s why: His first pick was Aaron Rodgers and his second pick was Nick Collins. Even with perfect 20/20 hindsight go back and pick two better players at picks 24 and 51. His next pick was Terrence Murphy who showed a lot of ability before suffering a career ending injury.

    Thompson’s not perfect - far from it - and the backup QB situation this season is an obvious example of that. But Sherman was the bad guy in the Thompson/Sherman relationship according to a very good source (Harlan). Thompson had a fantastic draft that season. And it would have been a huge mistake for Thompson to draft for the present and spend $11M in cap space on an OG (no matter how good he was) on a team with cap problems.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  20. easyk83

    easyk83 Cheesehead

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    Such a statistic is of limited value without contextual support. For instance how many of those was he used in a deliberate pass rush and in how many was he simply use to "push the pocket." Do your numbers have stats for that?
     
  21. easyk83

    easyk83 Cheesehead

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    Coverage specialists can be found at the linebacker position throughout the draft. Just like AJ Hawk wasn't worth his draft spot Bruce Irvin is starting to look like more of a meh selection at 15.
     
  22. Sunshinepacker

    Sunshinepacker Cheesehead

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    What?! One of the better 4-3 OLBs in the NFL is a 'meh' selection at #15? If coverage linebackers can be found anywhere, why haven't the Packers picked one up? Maybe you didn't read through what I wrote but I'll summarize. Irvin, at linebacker, has NO weaknesses in his game. He is good at rushing the passer, stopping the run and covering receivers and this was his FIRST year playing linebacker in the NFL.

    I'm sorry, the burden of proof at this point is on those claiming BJ Raji is actually good at rushing the passer, despite not recording a single sack in over a year. I'm also curious why a coach would tell a player, "hey, don't rush the passer, just push the pocket. See, sacking the QB would be good but NOT sacking him is better". If the idea is that they don't want to open running lanes for the QB, well then I would point out that we didn't really play a ton of rushing QBs this year. Weeden (44 rushing yards), Stafford (69), Cutler (118), Dalton( (183), Flacco (131), Ponder (151), Manning (36), Ryan (55) and Romo (38) are not exactly a list of scary scrambling QBs.
     
  23. NOMOFO

    NOMOFO Cheesehead

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    Yep...It's a giant reach to begin to justify Raji's numbers. As I said, I love the guy and it kills me but he has just sucked. Forget the numbers...how about the eye test? I have no idea how anyone that's watched the Pack play could not see it.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  24. NOMOFO

    NOMOFO Cheesehead

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    Of the top 10 free agent spending teams this season, guess how many even made the playoffs? THREE

    From those three, guess how many are still playing? ZERO
     
  25. Sunshinepacker

    Sunshinepacker Cheesehead

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    Boldin and Harvin were two pretty huge pickups but they were through trade so they wouldn't count in a 'free agency only' review.

    I do get your point which is why I'm very much against signing a guy like Byrd who will command a lot of money. I just want some guys looking for their second contract, who haven't received a lot of playing time (maybe they were behind a good player on the old team), that can compete for a starting role and, if injuries occur, won't leave us with first and second year guys as the only backups.
     

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