Getting over the hump

[GreenBaySlacker]

Unless Ted struck lightning in a bottle with multiple draft picks who will significantly contribute to the defense this year, no he has not done enough. Period. It is becoming an annual joke that TT will continually ignore all avenues of improving this team even when we have glaring and debilitating deficiencies on the team. It is honestly just becoming rather sad.

Francois, house, Evans free agent pick ups at positions of need.
Then adds 3 great young prospects in rounds 2 and three...

If MM thinks Capers is great, then obviously his opinions are different than ours. Not sure what point you're making.

I think capers is a genius. I just can't stand his 2-4-5 with light rushing linemen, and tweeners playing where lbs roam... all in the name of speed. Then our defense is still known to be too slow! Lol

I see the trend of more, and better dlineman added to the mix. Clark a 1St round pick, and Adams in the 3rd this year, shows Ted Thompson putting more value into those positions now. And those two grade out to be big time football players in my estimation. Both only 21, with plenty of time to get better too.

Also the two dbacks drafted before Adams are big and fast! 6'3" cb runs a 4.43 and 40" vert to go with those long arms...! Holy crap! Jones 6'1" 220 4.41 40 and the same length arms to go with his 37.5" vert! That's a far cry from the 5'11" 4.55 40 guys I'm used to seeing the packers pick...ugh. I generalize but here is our CBs before king and jones.

Sam shields 5'11" 186 (4.26 40 is why he was a stud #1 cb)
Randall 5'11" 196. (4.46)
Rollins 5'11" 194 (4.57)
Gunter 6'2" 198 (4.69)
Hyde 6' 197 (4.56)
Goodson 5'11 194 (4.52)

The new guys.....
House 6'1" 200 (4.43)
King 6'3" 200 (4.43)
Jones 6'1 220 (4.41)

Bigger and faster!

These guys and a change of strategy will make capers look great imo.

 

[texaspackerbacker]

Which kinda leads to the question why the hell did he just get smart enough to pick up that kind of DB now? It's an inexact science, and there are plenty of excellent sub-6 foot Corners too - Shields was certainly one for a while.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Wimm thinks its pretty clear that McCarthy feels the defensive woes are Teds fault because he continues to support Capers. My point was that maybe he doesn't think that at all maybe he just doesn't think Capers is as bad as we think he is.

Well, if McCarthy believes that Thompson has provided Capers with enough talent can you think of any reason why MM hasn't fired DC by now???

 

[RRyder]

Which kinda leads to the question why the hell did he just get smart enough to pick up that kind of DB now? It's an inexact science, and there are plenty of excellent sub-6 foot Corners too - Shields was certainly one for a while.

Because 6'3" CBs are a rarity.

The Packers under TT have never drafted "small" CBs. They just haven't drafted "giants" because...

A: They aren't exactly in abundance throughout the league.

B: Ones with ball skills normally are drafted higher then where we're selecting

C: Ones that are available when we're selecting are normally better suited for Saftey

Up untill last year the secondary, CB in particular, was the strength of the defense. Let's not act like TT has drafted the position so poorly that he needed to change his approach

 

[Poppa San]

...

Also the two dbacks drafted before Adams are big and fast! 6'3" cb runs a 4.43 and 40" vert to go with those long arms...! Holy crap! Jones 6'1" 220 4.41 40 and the same length arms to go with his 37.5" vert! That's a far cry from the 5'11" 4.55 40 guys I'm used to seeing the packers pick...ugh. I generalize but here is our CBs before king and jones.

Sam shields 5'11" 186 (4.26 40 is why he was a stud #1 cb)
Randall 5'11" 196. (4.46)
Rollins 5'11" 194 (4.57)
Gunter 6'2" 198 (4.69)
Hyde 6' 197 (4.56)
Goodson 5'11 194 (4.52)

The new guys.....
House 6'1" 200 (4.43)
King 6'3" 200 (4.43)
Jones 6'1 220 (4.41)

Bigger and faster!
These guys and a change of strategy will make capers look great imo.

I thought Jones was a safety, maybe getting some time at ILB?

Year Name College POS Height(in) Weight(lbs) 40Yard
'05 Nick Collins Bethune-Cookman CB 5'11" 206 4.36
Glad to see only size & speed count, not one or the other.

 

[Sky King]

For me there's not much point to wallowing in misery about what transpired last season other than to store it matter-of-factually in my mental archive. Mistakes probably had been made but they cannot be retroactively undone no matter how much I would continue to ***** and moan about them. Lessons should have been learned. Injuries never help the cause, either. Since more mistakes could still be made in the future and injuries are unpredictable, I will continue to watch the future with great interest. It's still too early for me to be comfortable forming any conclusions one way or the other regarding the performances of the players new to this team. That comes later.

It's encouraging to me, however, that Thompson was more active in free-agency this off season compared to most years past. That's what I've repeatedly called for myself during the past several years -- not that he go all-in with free-agency -- but to do so with moderation. He has also drafted multiple players that should increase overall team speed. Thompson seems to have deviated from his usual off season approach and that's what many of us, myself included, had been clamoring for in recent seasons.

Because of how Thompson handled this off season a little differently I have genuine hope that the regular season and playoffs may end-up better than they had the last few seasons. Some of my complaints from 2016 have been addressed by Thompson. Soon I'll find out whether the changes will be enough. Until results prove otherwise, I intend to remain optimistic about the upcoming season.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

For me there's not much point to wallowing in misery about what transpired last season other than to store it matter-of-factually in my mental archive. Mistakes probably had been made but they cannot be retroactively undone no matter how much I would continue to ***** and moan about them. Lessons should have been learned. Injuries never help the cause, either. Since more mistakes could still be made in the future and injuries are unpredictable, I will continue to watch the future with great interest. It's still too early for me to be comfortable forming any conclusions one way or the other regarding the performances of the players new to this team. That comes later.

It's encouraging to me, however, that Thompson was more active in free-agency this off season compared to most years past. That's what I've repeatedly called for myself during the past several years -- not that he go all-in with free-agency -- but to do so with moderation. He has also drafted multiple players that should increase overall team speed. Thompson seems to have deviated from his usual off season approach and that's what many of us, myself included, had been clamoring for in recent seasons.

Because of how Thompson handled this off season a little differently I have genuine hope that the regular season and playoffs may end-up better than they had the last few seasons. Some of my complaints from 2016 have been addressed by Thompson. Soon I'll find out whether the changes will be enough. Until results prove otherwise, I intend to remain optimistic about the upcoming season.

Absolutely agreed that Thompson has been more active in free agency this offseason, something that a lot of fans have been advocating for several years. While he made some excellent moves in signing Bennett, Kendricks, Evans and Jean Francois unfortunately I don't necessarily feel confident that the team's two biggest weaknesses at cornerback and outside linebacker have been adequately addressed.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

I find it amazing that fans such as yourself can give the defense a pass in that game vs Atlanta.

Atl 1st drive - 13 plays, 80 yards & TD
Atl 2nd drive - 12 plays, 60 yards & FG
Atl 3rd drive - 9 plays, 80 yards & TD
Atl 4th drive - 4 plays, 25 yards & Punt
Atl 5th drive - 9 plays, 68 yards & TD
Atl 6th drive - 2 plays, 75 yards & TD
Atl 7th drive - 8 plays, 75 yards & TD
Atl 8th drive - 7 plays, 33 yards & TD

How can any sane person look at Atlanta's drives in that game and then sit here and say it was the primarily the offenses fault we lost. They allowed 5 drives of 70 or more yards that resulted in touchdowns. But let's blame the offense for not playing to absolute perfection. God forbid we ask the defense to force a punt or two. J

I find it amazing that you read my post and thought I was giving the defense a pass! I simply said that any rational fan, going into that game, KNEW the defense would be bad but justifiably expected the offense to do really well. Based on those expectations, one side of the ball underperformed to a MUCH greater extent than the other.

But, sure, I guess saying the offense scoring ZERO points in the first half is just my way of saying the defense was just fine...

 

[Sky King]

Absolutely agreed that Thompson has been more active in free agency this offseason, something that a lot of fans have been advocating for several years. While he made some excellent moves in signing Bennett, Kendricks, Evans and Jean Francois unfortunately I don't necessarily feel confident that the team's two biggest weaknesses at cornerback and outside linebacker have been adequately addressed.

Like fine wine I guess that we have no other choices remaining than to patiently allow the neophytes enough time to transform themselves into something special. Hopefully, they're fast learners capable of doing so.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

I guess the reason for that being that it's entirely possible to win a game by scoring 21 or 22 points while a team is all but guaranteed to lose by allowing 44.



While I agree about the Packers benefitting from facing Haine in the NFCCG Vick was actually pretty good in 2010 ranking fourth in passer rating.

The Packers defense has a history of playing extremely well against below average offenses, therefore them allowing only 13 points against the 26th ranked Giants offense wasn't a huge surprise.

BTW the Packers don't need to have an elite defense to be a legitimate Super Bowl contender but a respectable capable of at least getting occasional stops.

First, I don't think anyone could reasonably expect a defense that featured Gunter vs the best WR in the NFL last season to hold that offense to less than 21 or 22 points. I also agree that the Packers don't need an elite defense. However, the team needs more defensive players who are capable of elite play before the defense can be termed "respectable".

Recall that in 2015 it was the defense that kept the Packers in the running for the playoffs while the offense was floundering around. Football Outsiders had the Packers with the 9th best defense in the league in 2015. Thompson really needs some of these recent draft picks to make some major improvements if this defense is going to get better.

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

I thought Jones was a safety, maybe getting some time at ILB?

Year Name College POS Height(in) Weight(lbs) 40Yard
'05 Nick Collins Bethune-Cookman CB 5'11" 206 4.36
Glad to see only size & speed count, not one or the other.

I do not deny the fact that there are 5'11" CBs and safety's who were elite talents. But I prefer bigger , more physical CBs and safety's ,who run 4.4 40s...

And I have had to suffer through a lot of underwhelming cb and safety draft picks in the last decade. Before Thompson picked a couple that broke the mold. 6'3" cb and a 6'1" 220 pounder who could play cb...

This draft is one of his best imo.

I also believe Randall and Rollins will look much better in a nickel or dime role.

 

[Poppa San]

And I have had to suffer through a lot of underwhelming cb and safety draft picks in the last decade. Before Thompson picked a couple that broke the mold. 6'3" cb and a 6'1" 220 pounder who could play cb...

You are making one huge assumption that King and Jones are not two wasted picks. Hope springs eternal and all that eh?

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Like fine wine I guess that we have no other choices remaining than to patiently allow the neophytes enough time to transform themselves into something special. Hopefully, they're fast learners capable of doing so.

While that's most likely Thompson's approach entering this season there are still veteran options available at both positions in McCourty and Dumervil probably being the most talented.

First, I don't think anyone could reasonably expect a defense that featured Gunter vs the best WR in the NFL last season to hold that offense to less than 21 or 22 points. I also agree that the Packers don't need an elite defense. However, the team needs more defensive players who are capable of elite play before the defense can be termed "respectable".

Recall that in 2015 it was the defense that kept the Packers in the running for the playoffs while the offense was floundering around. Football Outsiders had the Packers with the 9th best defense in the league in 2015. Thompson really needs some of these recent draft picks to make some major improvements if this defense is going to get better.

Absolutely agreed that I didn't expect the Packers defense being able to hold the Falcons under 21 points by any means. I was just pointing out that in general it's more likely to win a game by scoring 21 than giving up 44.

I would be excited if this season the Packers defense performed at the level they did in 2015. Unfortunately I'm not convinced the current unit has enough talent to achieve that as the team didn't have any glaring weaknesses two years ago.

Before Thompson picked a couple that broke the mold. 6'3" cb and a 6'1" 220 pounder who could play cb...

I highly doubt the Packers will line up Jones at cornerback.

 

[gbgary]

Getting over the hump

to do it they needed to go "all-in" but they didn't. in free agency they mostly plugged holes, that tt created, with similar and/or lessor quality players. the only upgrade was bennett. they addressed needs in the draft though. they still have nearly $19m in cap space. they'll be in the mix as usual though. Rodgers was asked recently what he thought about the off-season and he said "I think we’ve rebuilt a little bit..." clearly he's not impressed.

 

[rmontro]

Well, if McCarthy believes that Thompson has provided Capers with enough talent can you think of any reason why MM hasn't fired DC by now???

Maybe Dom has pictures of McCarthy in a compromising position? Like maybe of Mike carting home armloads of office supplies in his trunk?

Rodgers was asked recently what he though about the off-season and he said "I think we’ve rebuilt a little bit..." clearly he's not impressed.

I said when the offseason started I thought it looked like we were at least two years away from fixing the defense. Looks like Rodgers thinks we made some good moves, but we're not there yet. It's hard to argue with him.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I said when the offseason started I thought it looked like we were at least two years away from fixing the defense.

As I've mentioned before the defense could have been significantly improved by adding a veteran #1 cornerback as well as quality depth at outside linebacker. Unfortunately Thompson didn't make any moves addressing those issues.

 

[brandon2348]

I do like me some "Southern Flair"

http://www.acmepackingcompany.com/n...rn-flair-roster-2017-nfl-draft-sec-acc-pac-12

 

[rmontro]

As I've mentioned before the defense could have been significantly improved by adding a veteran #1 cornerback as well as quality depth at outside linebacker. Unfortunately Thompson didn't make any moves addressing those issues.

When I said we were at least two years away, that was taking into account that Thompson is our GM. Those are measured in Thompson years.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Well, if McCarthy believes that Thompson has provided Capers with enough talent can you think of any reason why MM hasn't fired DC by now???

Funny you should ask. McCarthy said on Thursday that he hasn't fired DC because of....Mason Crosby .

While I think this article is taking on a little creative thought process in fully connecting those dots, I hope MM doesn't really believe that just because it worked out with Mason, this is the policy that should guide every one of his personnel decisions.

http://www.espn.com/blog/green-bay-...arthy-fire-dom-capers-the-answer-mason-crosby

 

[rmontro]

Funny you should ask. McCarthy said on Thursday that he hasn't fired DC because of....Mason Crosby

Crosby only had one bad year though, Capers' defenses have been scorched over and over again.
I suppose Dom has it in him to have another good year, but I would have to think he's on a short leash by this time.
Kudos to the reporters who asked McCarthy the question.

 

[Sky King]

Funny you should ask. McCarthy said on Thursday that he hasn't fired DC because of....Mason Crosby .

While I think this article is taking on a little creative thought process in fully connecting those dots, I hope MM doesn't really believe that just because it worked out with Mason, this is the policy that should guide every one of his personnel decisions.

http://www.espn.com/blog/green-bay-...arthy-fire-dom-capers-the-answer-mason-crosby

That's not what I took away from McCarthy's Crosby comment regarding Capers. Paraphrasing McCarthy, he stated that there have been times in his life that he made certain decisions that had seemed to be correct initially but that later he regretted them. He gave me the impression that decisions of this magnitude are best made when exercising haste slowly.

IMHO this was a very interesting podcast that was loaded with valuable nuggets giving insight into McCarthy's personality and what shaped him as a coach. He's smart, thoughtful and witty. The exchanges between he and Mark Tauscher were also very insightful and enjoyable. Tauscher is a pretty good interviewer and really very bright himself. That's something about Tauscher that I had not been exposed to before listening to this program. I'll listen again in the future.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

When I said we were at least two years away, that was taking into account that Thompson is our GM. Those are measured in Thompson years.

Unfortunately Thompson hasn't been able to adequately improve the defense for five consecutive offseasons.

Funny you should ask. McCarthy said on Thursday that he hasn't fired DC because of....Mason Crosby .

While I think this article is taking on a little creative thought process in fully connecting those dots, I hope MM doesn't really believe that just because it worked out with Mason, this is the policy that should guide every one of his personnel decisions.

http://www.espn.com/blog/green-bay-...arthy-fire-dom-capers-the-answer-mason-crosby

I heard McCarthy's interview with Wilde and Tausch but I'm convinced he would have fired Capers if the talent level on defense would have been significantly better than the performance on the field indicated in his opinion.

 

[Sky King]

I heard McCarthy's interview with Wilde and Tausch but I'm convinced he would have fired Capers if the talent level on defense would have been significantly better than the performance on the field indicated in his opinion.

Although it was not implied I wondered the same thing myself. We'll have to read McCarthy's book someday to find out for sure. Hopefully, he writes one after he retires.

 

[rmontro]

Unfortunately Thompson hasn't been able to adequately improve the defense for five consecutive offseasons.

Yeah, I was being optimistic. I think two years is best case scenario.

As for Capers, maybe the injuries this year saved him. Several posters believe that the defensive woes were solely because of injuries. Maybe McCarthy feels that way too, or is at least willing to give the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Sky King]

Yeah, I was being optimistic. I think two years is best case scenario.

As for Capers, maybe the injuries this year saved him. Several posters believe that the defensive woes were solely because of injuries. Maybe McCarthy feels that way too, or is at least willing to give the benefit of the doubt.

What other choice does he have, really? Rollins and Randall both showed flashes in their rookie seasons and both showed significant decline in their second seasons -- a year in which both had also battled chronic injuries. It's not likely TT or MM are likely to evaluate the comparative performances of those two seasons without some bias regarding their injuries. But they're both being given third preseasons and if they survive all that should make the 53 -- with a third regular season opportunity to prove their worth.

If either or both remains relatively healthy this season and also improve their level of play, then we'll all know. And if either remains relatively healthy but their play is about the same as it was did last season, only slightly better or even worse, then we'll also know. And if either or both are again injured for a majority of the 2017 season along with a repeat of their poor play similar to their 2016 seasons, then we may learn just how important availability really is to TT and MM. Both of them need to stay relatively healthy along with definitively playing better.

This is an especially important season coming-up for Randall and Rollins.