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From the sidelines

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by mateus, Dec 26, 2007.

  1. mateus

    mateus Cheesehead

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    didn't find any thread like this and well i was wondering how many football buffs on here may or may not know or even have input on the packers style of play, there tactics, formations, plays and anything else that is decided and planned from the sidelines.
    i dont know much about football, so my personal gain is learning as much as i can on this team and not just on the franchise (theres only so much wiki can offer...)
    discuss away!
     
  2. abztractmynd

    abztractmynd Cheesehead

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    dude...one of the best posts ive seen in a long time. i hope many are up to the task of dissecting the Packers on offense and defense.

    Ill start off with the offensive running game which though has increased in production is still lacking consistency. The Offensive running game has been utilized mostly in I-back formations with single or multiple tight-ends, or multiple fullbacks with single tight-end, and sometimes even double. I have seen only a few times the ball being handed off in shotgun formation. The packers Offensive play caller...needs to find a proper transition between passing and running the ball. ive often seen us go from power I formation to shotgun, and this can really help a defense out in knowing what ur leaning towards. I understand this offensive running game is based on the zone blocking scheme, but has anyone else noticed how well Ryan Grant runs when in single back I formation, and how poorly he runs in the zone blocking scheme?(i wish i had stats to back myself up, but you have all seen it on TV almost every week) he has room to breath and his vision increases allowing him to decide where to run. He showed it against the bears last week.

    3 formations that need to be utilized more in the running game

    1) I-back single formation power right
    2) Shotgun-4WR set 1 rb
    3) I-back single form double tight

    The zone blocking scheme does work at times, but is often ruined by the delay from post snap to present line of scrimmage. Ryan Grant has a more downhill method, his vision and awareness are amazing...so in my opinion he should be used to his skill set, not the coaches.

    i would write more but im tired so i hope to see everyone else contribute to this post. and dont bash me its just my opinion =] even if i dont know much about football.
     
  3. mateus

    mateus Cheesehead

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    join the club on that last line hehe!(oh and your very welcome, i was just sorta getting tired of hearing how cold and/or how godly favre is and came to the realisation of "hey this is a team sport isnt it?)
    i dont know much about football lingo so bear with me!(and pardon the pun) i have to say that i agree about how players should be played to there skill sets and not the coaches. often players are misused or "retrained" to another position simply because coaches may be too lazy or at times too busy to think up a new or refreshed formation or even play. and that often hampers a player's progression into the team and starting squad since hes often asked to be soemthing he clearly is not!

    now moving on to these I formations and shotguns...im a little unknowledgeable in which situations these are best imployed but from what i read...wouldnt something called a wishbone formation be more versatile and a little less predictable? and the transition could be easily done from that to shotgun as the backs themselves could simply be other tacklers...applying say an added wave to push the opposing D line where it would be needed for a run or just as a distraction for the QB to deal with his passing game.
    risky, but hey, life's a risk!
    i dont know the line up all that well...so can anyone imagine a packers OL in wish bone formation? or in what i described above?
     
  4. wpr

    wpr Cheesehead

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    The wishbone formation was used more extensively in the past. Say the 1960's. While a few high schools and colleges still use this formation it is not used at the pro level because of the speed of the game. By the time the quarterback and running back get to the outside edge of the line the linebackers and safeties have gotten there as well.
    One of the great concerns for an NFL team is what would happen if the quarterback was injured. Most teams do not want their quarterback to run around very much and the wishbone has the quarterback doing just that on most plays.
    Another problem with the wishbone is that it has only 2 potential receivers.
    (Either wide receivers or tight ends.) The rules in the NFL greatly favor a passing game over a running game and the idea is to move the ball down field as quick as possible and score as many points as possible. (naturally). the running game for the most part is a slower more methodical attack and frequently teams are not disciplined enough to play error free for 15-20 plays needed to score the touchdown. thus they will end up kicking the ball away when they fail to get the needed 1st down.
     
  5. PackinSteel

    PackinSteel Cheesehead

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    Excellent topic and some informed discussion.

    Please don't take this wrong - I'm not a typical message board do-gooder. Try and use some capitalization and paragraphing.

    Just makes it a lot easier to read your comments.
     
  6. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    The TD Ryan had vs the Bears looked to be a zone blocking play..I recall seeing a terrific block that leveled a D player and it was a guard I think and he blocked the guy at the knees.It might have been Coston who had the block..

    But what I think should not be used to much is that "stretch" type handoff Brett does..Rather see the pitch..Althought I do recall some plays ( not alot ) working with that stretch handoff. Just seems to be more telegraphed when they use it..

    I think the pitch gives Ryan a better look at the holes opening up...

    True wishbone is fullback right behind q/b aoubt a yard or so, then 2 rbs about 7 yards behind each guard.

    Packers have used a variation of the wishbone..Sort of reverse or inverted wishbone...RB about 6 or 7 yards behind Brett, fullback and te lined up about 4 yards behind the tackles..I have seen it ran a few times, but really can't recall how it worked..
     
  7. yooperfan

    yooperfan Cheesehead

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    Excellent analysis of the wishbone and why it's not used in the pro game.
    However I have seen the Packers and a few other pro teams use an inverted wishbone on a few occasions this season. I am at a loss as to what this formation adds to an offense.
    Help anyone?
     
  8. vixtalkn

    vixtalkn Cheesehead

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    My question ...

    Even if Grant lines up in the I-formation, can't the O-line still be using the zone blocking scheme? I thought this is how Grant accomplished last week's long run from scrimmage.

    Abstract mind ... what am I missing or not seeing?
     
  9. BlueMoose

    BlueMoose Cheesehead

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    Good thread.

    Question: What is the formation we're using with the two fullbacks? Looks kind like an "inverted wishbone."
     
  10. DoddPower

    DoddPower Nick Perry is watching you, NFL QB's!

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    I believe it was Colledge who got that block. Grant was giving him props after the play and commentators made a comment about it.

    One thing I've noticed about our run game is that it's very straight forward. No tricks or special plays, just standard running between the guards and tackles and an occasional stretch play. Maybe we should add a few more wrinkles into things to keep the defense guessing.
     
  11. rabidgopher04

    rabidgopher04 Cheesehead

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    It adds extra blockers for a running back in the backfield. The best application I can think of is for a sweep play, take out more guys at the line of scrimmage opening up huge holes downfield or using it to fake out the D as to which player will get the ball.

    While it's a video game, Madden has the formation in the game so you can get a sense how it works there.
     
  12. wpr

    wpr Cheesehead

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    As I see it there are a few reasons to use a stretch play and not a toss.
    1. The stretch leaves open the possiblilty of the QB pulling the ball back out at the last moment and looking for a receiver. It does not happen a lot but it does happen on occassion. Once the QB tosses the ball to the RB 99.99% of the time it has to be a run.
    2. Believe it or not the stretch gives the RB better field vison. On a stretch play he is looking down field not at the QB or the ball. It is the RB's job to have is arms spread wide enough apart to allow the QB an area to incert the ball and it is the QB's job to get it stuck in there properly. (The fumbled exchanged earlier this year between Brett and Grant was probably due to them not have enough snaps in practice to be comfortable with each other.)
    On a toss the RB has to look the ball into his midsection before he can look upfield. (Just like the WR does when he catches the ball. Many times the WR will drop the ball because they take their eyes off the ball to look and see where the defenders are and end up dropping it.) When the WR drops the ball it is almost always and incomplete pass. When the RB drops the ball when it is tossed to him it is a fumble because the ball is tossed backward to the RB.
     
  13. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    See my post a few replies up
     
  14. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Thanks for the opinion on that stretch and the fact Brett gets a chance to pull ball back..Never thought of that//Not sure I have seen it either..

    I just feel that stretch does not work as well as the pitch for what ever reason..Maybe i am wrong..Next game I am going to try and pay more attention to both type plays..
     
  15. wpr

    wpr Cheesehead

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    I think he pulls the ball back about 5 times a game but that is just a guess.
    If I can see the game here in IL, I will watch a little closer too.
     
  16. IronMan

    IronMan Cheesehead

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    I don't really like the stretch either. I just don't think it is as effective as it could be, because Brett doesn't always carry out his play fakes. I'm not trying to knock Brett; I just think he could carry out his play fakes a little better. Similar to how Peyton Manning does. Thats one of Peyton's stronger suits IMO.
     
  17. BlueMoose

    BlueMoose Cheesehead

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    LTF: Thanks. Still wondering what they call the darn thing though. I doubt that the playbook says "inverted wishbone" ;) .
     
  18. Raider Pride

    Raider Pride Cheesehead

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    Bonjour Mon Ami Canadien Français.

    When you read this forum you are going to read all kinds of comments. Perhaps how the Lee played a great game, and hung on to the ball after he was hit 1 second after the ball arrived all game long. That is because he is doing his job in the West Coast Offense style the Packers play. Chances are the T.E.'s are going to be nailed a great deal as the ball arrives.

    You may read how an O lineman played poor. Then find out he was playing with an injury that made hi less agile. For and O lineman in this Offense it is more important to be agile than have Girth, but both would be better of course. This is because of the quick drop and release by Brett.

    Me or most posters here could go on and on... However the best thing for you to do, if you do not understand the WCO for example is read up on it.

    This will also explain much of M.M.'s and T.T.'s player and draft decisions as certain types of players are needed to play in this system.

    Here is an example of the player breakdown for the Packers Offense:

    Wide Receivers in the WCO

    The wide receiver position is probably the second most important position in this offense only because of the passing. The ideal size of a wide receiver should be at least 6 foot 3 inches, and weigh about 210 pounds. To play effectively, a wide receiver must posses several traits and characteristics. For example, a wide receiver should have a high level of agility. The agility to change his body position is essential if a wide receiver is to be able to get his hips turned and his hands in position to catch a ball that is not perfectly thrown. Body control is particularly critical for a wide receiver who wants to get to the highest tier of play.

    Wide receivers in this offense must also be relatively strong. Strength can help wide receivers in several ways. For example, strength plays a role in a wide receiver being able to maintain his balance after a collision with his defenders. Strength also affects a receiver’s ability to go up for the ball and his ability to maintain his performance level as the game progresses . All factors considered the stronger a player is, the less likely he is to be injured.

    Soft hands are also vital. It’s a given that to have a legitimate chance to play, a receiver must have outstanding hands. The key is to be able to catch the ball in a crowded situation, while on the move. Almost all potential receivers can run under the ball and catch it in the open. In reality, however, most catches must be made with the ball and the defender closing at the same instant.

    In such a situation, the receiver must get his body in position to catch the ball and be hit all at the same moment.

    Wide receivers must also have the ability to focus. They must be able to find the ball, focus on it, and isolate it from everything else that is happening around them. When a coach is evaluating videotapes on a particular wide receiver, he looks for and evaluates those plays that demonstrate situations where the player must be focused.

    Speed also plays a role. While pure (track) speed may be desirable, the ability to increase his foot speed as needed (i.e., explosiveness) and his full stride speed are more important factors for a wide receiver. Acceleration has a number of obvious applications for a wide receiver.

    Full-stride speed enables a receiver who has the ball in the open field to be able to keep the separation with the closing defenders until he crosses the goal line . He doesn't have to out-run the defenders or gain ground on them just get to the goal line before the defenders do. This situation requires full-stride speed, rather than track speed.

    The NFL has also had a few wide receivers with Olympic-level sprinting speed who lacked full-stride speed. As a result, they weren't able to score whenever they got tangled up with a defender and weren't able to get back into full stride quickly enough.

    Coachability is another factor that is important that wide receivers have (as it is for all players). Coaching can help enhance a receiver's ability to evade a defender at the line of scrimmage, to read the form of coverage, and to change a pattern accordingly.

    Wide receivers must also be durable. Durability is a factor because receivers get hit a lot. Often, they're hit when they're in a vulnerable position (i.e., being hit by a much larger opponent after running a hooking pattern against a linebacker). Wide receivers are finely tuned athletes who need to be in top condition to perform well. If they are hurt or injured, it can be very difficult for them to function at a high level. Unlike a few other positions (e.g., offensive lineman), wide receivers must be almost totally injury free to perform well.

    Walsh has had the luxury to coach a number of great wide receivers, including Chip Myers, Charlie Joiner, James Lofton, Ken Margerum, Isaac Curtis, Dwight Clark, John Taylor and the incomparable Jerry Rice. At one time or another, all of them were either Pro Bowl players or All-Americans in college.

    Each, however, was uniquely qualified and different from the others.

    For example, Chip Myers was 6'5, while Charlie Joiner was only 5'10; Isaac Curtis was an NCAA sprint champion; Dwight Clark ran a 4.6 40-yard dash, etc . The one thing that they had in common, however, was that they were all brilliant performers.

    To read the full article.... Go here and keep hitting next page on the bottom left.

    http://football.calsci.com/WCOHistory.html

    Happy New Year.

    R.P.
     
  19. abztractmynd

    abztractmynd Cheesehead

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    You're not missing anything, i was high and started rambling without proper grammar and clerification. its more miss-informed. ha.

    The long run for the TD was I formation but in single back with tight end on the right. imo, the play call looked to be a weak-side lead through the A gap(center-left guard). In my eyes the blocking scheme seemed to be man. hope that clears it up.
    the emphasis i put on this play is how well the linemen were able to go 1on1 against the defensive front seven, allowing Ryan Grant vision and lane options. This single back formation also allows for 3 WR's and 1 TE. It can be used in a variety of ways like play action, running, and screen passes.
     
  20. mateus

    mateus Cheesehead

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    now THAT is a post! i havent gotten to read it all yet but once i have ill try and disect it a little more.
    overall im quite happy most people are glad with this thread. i personally was surprised with the lack there of of it, took and chance and banked on it.
    now moving back to the stretch discussion.
    ive seen many QBs try to pull it off on more than one occasion, but i definatly agree that brett favre, for all his godliness :wink: , cant bluff! as he goes for the stretch you can see the running game from a mile away...none the less though, it makes for one hell of a running game!
    and im glad to see that we have a sort of inverted wishbone going on offensively, it just seemed like the wishbone was the smarter play, to me anyways, and well it could be that theres more to it then what we see on the field...oh the amount i would pay to have a sit down with the coordinators!

    alright so post read hehe.
    the wide reciever article is a great find and shows our dependance on ours. its an incredible position to play and if the QB is the general the WR is definatly the cruise missile! ill pay closer attention to there job on the field next time i catch a packers game.
     
  21. Packerfan4Life

    Packerfan4Life Cheesehead

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    Full House Formation
     
  22. Tiger

    Tiger Cheesehead

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    Yup its full house, its actually been in the Madden games for years.
    The GB playbook in Madden needs a huge overall now, it should have the full house, five wide and that that package where the TE lines up in the backfield beside the RB.
     
  23. mateus

    mateus Cheesehead

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    ah so our inverted wishbone is called a full house? awesome!
    but whats the five wide? DL tactic?
     
  24. Zombieslayer

    Zombieslayer Cheesehead

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    My guess is from watching it in action, the FB doesn't do anything until he's past the line of scrimmage. He actually passes up the HB while the HB is evading tackles, and hits a LB, thus allowing the HB to get to the 3rd line of defense.
     
  25. BlueMoose

    BlueMoose Cheesehead

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    Ah, the ol' Full House formation. Thanks. (Guess I need to retire Medal of Honor and switch to Madden;).
     

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