From ???s to position of strength...

[Bruce]

... it is easy to get excited about the Green Bay Packers defensive backfield’s sudden wealth of talent and depth and the intensity of competition that it should produce.

Gray-beards, 31 year-old Al Harris and Charles Woodson 29, form one of the better CB tandems in the league if they are healthy – greatly helping the defense take it to the next level.

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Equally exciting is the young depth that now exists and the talent available for nickel and dime packages – starting with a couple of 22 year olds..

Carroll 22, has talent and has progressed through ‘trial by fire.’ over the last couple of seasons – especially in the 2nd half of last year. He seems to be saying all the right things since the signing of Woodson – “I have a great opportunity to learn from two of the best (Harris and Woodson).

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Hawkins has gained weight and strength and is working out like a mad man – participating in all of the offseason conditioning opportunities. “Not only do I want to be able to cover guys,â€

 

[pyledriver80]

Nice Bruce! I agree that this,along with our LB's is the strength of the team.

 

[CaliforniaCheez]

Your continued fondness for Carroll is remarkable.

I will say that his attitude improved after Joe Thomas was cut.
It could only go up. He is an example of how attitude can limit a player.

He is signed through the 2008. I believe the odds are against him begining the 2008 season with the Packers.

His odds of staying can increase if:

1. He stops yapping at the officials.
2. He stops incuring penalties.
3. Works on awareness of the ball when in the air.
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Hawkins has the physical ability to be great. He has had little experence. He is the developmental type pick a team needs. He is a likely successor to one of the older corners.
*******************************************
Collins made some rookie mistakes last year as he had to adapt to the increased speed of the NFL. He became a better tackler as the season progressed. He was an average safety last year. That is as good as one can expect from a rookie. He should continue to improve and cntribute a few more turnovers this season.
*******************************************
The Packers have a lot of good marginal roster guys who should be in the league elsewhere as we saw with last year's Leigh Torrence.

Wishom, Thornburg, Dendy, Bigby, Blackmon, Fontenot, Culver, should keep Horton, Underwood, and Manuel uncomfortable and on the bubble.

The wealth of talent will cause some good DB's to be cut. 2 or 3 of those cut should find work elsewhere. 2 should be on the practice squad.

Usually only 9 DB's make the final roster. Who would you cut to get to 9?

 

[SuperRat]

Carroll will benefit greatly from being the 3rd stringer, less pressure on him and he will be facing worse recievers, he should be alright.

 

[porky88]

Carroll will benefit greatly from being the 3rd stringer, less pressure on him and he will be facing worse recievers, he should be alright.

I agree but we didn't use a 1st round pick on him to play 3rd string.. If he doesn't get better I think he's as good as gone. He still struggled last year. He wasn't worth a 1st round pick when we took him and he's def not living up to what Sherman thought he was.

Edit: to sum it up. He's not a very good player and I'm starting to see little potential in him.

 

[Bruce]

Carroll is not 3rd string, he is the 3rd CB which means he will play a significant amount of the time -- big difference between 3rd string and #3 CB.
He also is the top backup to both Woodson and Harris -- which is important since they are 29 and 30 and Woodson has not stayed healthy through a whole season in a number of years.

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Further, there were 71 cornerbacks in the league burned more often than Carroll was, including Atlanta's DeAngelo Hall, the eighth pick in the draft the year Carroll was drafted 25th; Marcus Trufant, Seattle's third-year corner and budding all-pro; Chris Gamble, who was chosen three picks after Carroll in '04; Ike Taylor, Pittsburgh's third-year starting corner; and even Mike McKenzie and Al Harris.

When you factor the targeted/burned scale Carroll ranked tied for 89th - meaning 88 NFL CB's who played a significant portion of time last season ranked worse (including all of those named above).

Even in the area of penalties Carroll showed a marked improvement as the year went on. Carroll was penalized 9 times for the year. His penalties were as follows.

Illegal use of Hands 3 times
9/11 at Detroit all 3 penalties

Pass Interference 3 times
10/3 at Carolina
10/30 at Cincinnati

11/13 at Atlanta

Defensive Holding 1 time
12/11 vs Detroit

Delay of Game
10/30 at Cincinnati

Offsides
10/30 at Cincinnati

He also had 2 other penalties that were declined
9/11 Holding at Det

10/30 Pass Interference at Cincinnati

Interesting that 6 of his 9 called penalties and 8 of his 11 total penalties called came in 2 games.

NOTE he was only penalized 2 time in last 9 games.

 

[Bruce]

Your continued fondness for Carroll is remarkable.

I will say that his attitude improved after Joe Thomas was cut.
It could only go up. He is an example of how attitude can limit a player.

He is signed through the 2008. I believe the odds are against him begining the 2008 season with the Packers.

His odds of staying can increase if:

1. He stops yapping at the officials.
2. He stops incuring penalties.
3. Works on awareness of the ball when in the air.
*******************************************
Hawkins has the physical ability to be great. He has had little experence. He is the developmental type pick a team needs. He is a likely successor to one of the older corners.
*******************************************
Collins made some rookie mistakes last year as he had to adapt to the increased speed of the NFL. He became a better tackler as the season progressed. He was an average safety last year. That is as good as one can expect from a rookie. He should continue to improve and cntribute a few more turnovers this season.
*******************************************
The Packers have a lot of good marginal roster guys who should be in the league elsewhere as we saw with last year's Leigh Torrence.

Wishom, Thornburg, Dendy, Bigby, Blackmon, Fontenot, Culver, should keep Horton, Underwood, and Manuel uncomfortable and on the bubble.

The wealth of talent will cause some good DB's to be cut. 2 or 3 of those cut should find work elsewhere. 2 should be on the practice squad.

Usually only 9 DB's make the final roster. Who would you cut to get to 9?

If I had to pick my 9 today they would be as follows:

Collins, Roman Manuel and Underwood would be my safeties.
Harris, Woodson, Carroll, Hawkins and Blackmon would be my CB

But alot can happen between now and cut time.

 

[tromadz]

Further, there were 71 cornerbacks in the league burned more often than Carroll was, including Atlanta's DeAngelo Hall, the eighth pick in the draft the year Carroll was drafted 25th; Marcus Trufant, Seattle's third-year corner and budding all-pro; Chris Gamble, who was chosen three picks after Carroll in '04; Ike Taylor, Pittsburgh's third-year starting corner; and even Mike McKenzie and Al Harris.

Are you saying Carroll is better than Al Harris?




A fool once said, "Stats Never Lie" and well...that's why he was a fool! lol.

 

[Bruce]

Further, there were 71 cornerbacks in the league burned more often than Carroll was, including Atlanta's DeAngelo Hall, the eighth pick in the draft the year Carroll was drafted 25th; Marcus Trufant, Seattle's third-year corner and budding all-pro; Chris Gamble, who was chosen three picks after Carroll in '04; Ike Taylor, Pittsburgh's third-year starting corner; and even Mike McKenzie and Al Harris.

Are you saying Carroll is better than Al Harris?

No, I am saying he is better than many (esp. you) give him credit for. The stats support a player who improved significantly last season -- esp. in the last 9 games.

 

[porky88]

Further, there were 71 cornerbacks in the league burned more often than Carroll was, including Atlanta's DeAngelo Hall, the eighth pick in the draft the year Carroll was drafted 25th; Marcus Trufant, Seattle's third-year corner and budding all-pro; Chris Gamble, who was chosen three picks after Carroll in '04; Ike Taylor, Pittsburgh's third-year starting corner; and even Mike McKenzie and Al Harris.

Are you saying Carroll is better than Al Harris?

No, I am saying he is better than many (esp. you) give him credit for. The stats support a player who improved significantly last season -- esp. in the last 9 games.

I like the faith Bruce. I do but the fact remains he has a bad attitude and hasn't lived up to his #25 overall pick status yet. He has a way to go to earn a lot of Packer fans respect. If he doesn't improve enough this year I think he's as good as gone. I also am hearing really good things about Mike Hawkins. Carroll is far from the #3 CB right now. Hawkins will push him and if Hawkins progresses better, that would be the end of Carroll.

 

[Bruce]

Further, there were 71 cornerbacks in the league burned more often than Carroll was, including Atlanta's DeAngelo Hall, the eighth pick in the draft the year Carroll was drafted 25th; Marcus Trufant, Seattle's third-year corner and budding all-pro; Chris Gamble, who was chosen three picks after Carroll in '04; Ike Taylor, Pittsburgh's third-year starting corner; and even Mike McKenzie and Al Harris.

Are you saying Carroll is better than Al Harris?

No, I am saying he is better than many (esp. you) give him credit for. The stats support a player who improved significantly last season -- esp. in the last 9 games.

I like the faith Bruce. I do but the fact remains he has a bad attitude and hasn't lived up to his #25 overall pick status yet. He has a way to go to earn a lot of Packer fans respect. If he doesn't improve enough this year I think he's as good as gone. I also am hearing really good things about Mike Hawkins. Carroll is far from the #3 CB right now. Hawkins will push him and if Hawkins progresses better, that would be the end of Carroll.

Porky, when the guy says that he is excited about the opportunity to learn from Woodson and Harris -- that is a good attitude. He has been coming to workouts and is at voluntary camp -- that is a good attitude.

Hawkins is improving, but is still listed behind Carroll at both positions. How can you say that he is far from #3 -- when that is exactly where Saunders and MM say he is?

Don't forget, he is 22 years old with enormous upside. He showed significant improvement last season (esp. over the last 9 games) and there is no reason not to expect more as he gains experience.

 

[tromadz]

any statistic that has AC over Harriss is a ridiculous statistic.

Carroll did improve last year, but that's not saying much(he went from 'horrible' to 'bad'...congrats, Ahmad).

I hope he does improve and becomes the players we've been waiting YEARS for, because I want our Dbs to be good. I don't want to **** my pants when I see the nickel or dime(mostly dime, Hawkins should get nickel job) on the field. I want to be confident those guys can do the job, and AC has given us no reason to be confident in him.

He is entering his third year, the 'break out' year, and he is going to be coming off the bench. No CB who is a #1 pick is supposed to be a nickel\dime back in his THIRD year in the NFL. I would have understood if he was nickel\dime the first two years, that actually makes MORE sense....but to be a nickel\dimer in his THIRD year? c'mon...

People can like AC, there is no law against it, I just won't be one of those people(and I really want to be. I was singing his praises when we got him, on how fast he was and had the physical gifts...unfortunately hes doing NOTHING with it...and thats a shame).

rant-over

 

[Bruce]

Trom: be reasonable, if MM stayed he and Harris would have been the starters this season. They brought in an all pro -- and Carroll, who 22 yrs old, moves to #3 CB.

There are plenty of 25th picks that are not in the NFL in there 3rd season -- it certainly is no guarentee that a CB or WR taken with the 25th pick will be a starter by year 3.

Instead Carroll has been a starter for both of the seasons he has been a Pro and now because we signed a multiple year Pro Bowler has been moved to top CB in nickle and dime packages.

There is no shame in backing up Harris and Woodson -- BTW how many years was Harris a backup before finally becoming a starter when he was traded to GB.

Also, no, stats are stats -- while they do not tell the entire story, they DO give you information from which one can make reasonable and logical assessments. As I said before, no one is saying that Carroll is as good as 31 year old Veteran Al Harris -- he is not. But statistically Carroll performed much better than you and others want to give him credit for.

Stats

any statistic that has AC over Harriss is a ridiculous statistic.

Carroll did improve last year, but that's not saying much(he went from 'horrible' to 'bad'...congrats, Ahmad).

I hope he does improve and becomes the players we've been waiting YEARS for, because I want our Dbs to be good. I don't want to **** my pants when I see the nickel or dime(mostly dime, Hawkins should get nickel job) on the field. I want to be confident those guys can do the job, and AC has given us no reason to be confident in him.

He is entering his third year, the 'break out' year, and he is going to be coming off the bench. No CB who is a #1 pick is supposed to be a nickel\dime back in his THIRD year in the NFL. I would have understood if he was nickel\dime the first two years, that actually makes MORE sense....but to be a nickel\dimer in his THIRD year? c'mon...

People can like AC, there is no law against it, I just won't be one of those people(and I really want to be. I was singing his praises when we got him, on how fast he was and had the physical gifts...unfortunately hes doing NOTHING with it...and thats a shame).

rant-over

 

[porky88]

Porky, when the guy says that he is excited about the opportunity to learn from Woodson and Harris -- that is a good attitude. He has been coming to workouts and is at voluntary camp -- that is a good attitude.

Hawkins is improving, but is still listed behind Carroll at both positions. How can you say that he is far from #3 -- when that is exactly where Saunders and MM say he is?

Don't forget, he is 22 years old with enormous upside. He showed significant improvement last season (esp. over the last 9 games) and there is no reason not to expect more as he gains experience.

He got arrested this past off season. He has a bad attitude. The Green and Gold glasses are nice but you need to take them off every now and then. He picks fights. I'm talking Joey Thomas, and gets arrested. He has an ongoing trend that needs to stop.

Green Bay Press Gazette did something on Hawkins a couple days ago. I read that he is competing with Carroll for #3. Last year Thomas was listed #2 going into mini camp. So Carroll needs a good camp to stay where he is. I'm sure he'll hold off Hawkins though. I expect him to.

As for potential it's not enormous. He won't amount to a Craig Newsome type of player. He'll never be a #1 CB. Any good scout new that about him coming out of college. He can however become a very strong #2 CB in this league. Why we passed on Chris Gamble still makes me cringe to this day. Gamble was regarded as a much better prospect and continues to show why in Carolina..

Carroll has a lot of work to do. I'd like to see him focus more on his progress rather than get arrested in the off season and picking fights. Obviously your adrenaline is like no other when your on the field. I don't think it's a huge deal that he got in a shoving match with another player on the team. I however would like to see him not complain. If he grabs your facemask, deal with it. It happens all the time in the NFL and it'll sometimes get called and sometimes it won't. Pick off the next pass. Use it for motivation not to get a 15 yard flag. There are just so many misunderstandings and coincidences one person can have.

 

[Bruce]

Porky: he got arrested because the guy he was with got into a fight and he tried to walk away before the police were through questioning him. He has not been convicted of anything -- and I bet you the charges will be dropped.

Further, no one knows who started the fight between Carroll and Thomas -- once again this CRAP happens, and look who THOMPSON cut -- Thomas. Carroll beat Thomas out for the starting job last season and far outperformed him once they put on the pads.

Do you want defensive players to be whimps? If a receiver grabbed my face mask in practice I would have knocked him out -- it happens. Carroll has more upside than Gamble. Gamble plays on a top defense surrounded by talent -- but he gets picked on and burnt alot. Don't get wrong Gamble has talent, but Carroll does too. He is younger, faster, tackles well and loves to hit. He flashed talent as a return man and will be in the mix for that job too now that he is not a starting CB.

Lighten up, didn't you ever make mistakes when you were a young man?

He got arrested this past off season. He has a bad attitude. The Green and Gold glasses are nice but you need to take them off every now and then. He picks fights. I'm talking Joey Thomas, and gets arrested. He has an ongoing trend that needs to stop.

Green Bay Press Gazette did something on Hawkins a couple days ago. I read that he is competing with Carroll for #3. Last year Thomas was listed #2 going into mini camp. So Carroll needs a good camp to stay where he is. I'm sure he'll hold off Hawkins though. I expect him to.

As for potential it's not enormous. He won't amount to a Craig Newsome type of player. He'll never be a #1 CB. Any good scout new that about him coming out of college. He can however become a very strong #2 CB in this league. Why we passed on Chris Gamble still makes me cringe to this day. Gamble was regarded as a much better prospect and continues to show why in Carolina..

Carroll has a lot of work to do. I'd like to see him focus more on his progress rather than get arrested in the off season and picking fights. Obviously your adrenaline is like no other when your on the field. I don't think it's a huge deal that he got in a shoving match with another player on the team. I however would like to see him not complain. If he grabs your facemask, deal with it. It happens all the time in the NFL and it'll sometimes get called and sometimes it won't. Pick off the next pass. Use it for motivation not to get a 15 yard flag. There are just so many misunderstandings and coincidences one person can have.

 

[Zero2Cool]

Further, no one knows who started the fight between Carroll and Thomas -- once again this CRAP happens, and look who THOMPSON cut -- Thomas. Carroll beat Thomas out for the starting job last season and far outperformed him once they put on the pads.

Ahh, yes good point.

So to say Carroll was the lesser of the two would be criticizing Ted's decision?


( tromadz, )

 

[tromadz]

1 of them gone, 1 left

 

[porky88]

Porky: he got arrested because the guy he was with got into a fight and he tried to walk away before the police were through questioning him. He has not been convicted of anything -- and I bet you the charges will be dropped.

Further, no one knows who started the fight between Carroll and Thomas -- once again this CRAP happens, and look who THOMPSON cut -- Thomas. Carroll beat Thomas out for the starting job last season and far outperformed him once they put on the pads.

Do you want defensive players to be whimps? If a receiver grabbed my face mask in practice I would have knocked him out -- it happens. Carroll has more upside than Gamble. Gamble plays on a top defense surrounded by talent -- but he gets picked on and burnt alot. Don't get wrong Gamble has talent, but Carroll does too. He is younger, faster, tackles well and loves to hit. He flashed talent as a return man and will be in the mix for that job too now that he is not a starting CB.

Lighten up, didn't you ever make mistakes when you were a young man?

You overvalue Caroll way to much. Will you continue to overvalue him if he doesn't improve. Again I hope your right but I saw a little improvement in him from year 1 to year 2. I hope he takes the big leap but I don't see it.

Like I said their are just so many misunderstandings one guy can have. This guy continues to show a cocky, ignorant attitude in my opinion. He has a lot of growing up to do. I hope your right in that he has done it.

I hope your right but I don't think you are. To me Carroll is a bust and won't see a contract extension. His play on the field speaks for itself. He's not a very good player and he can't cover the better WR's like Gamble can. Though the nickel role might be the perfect fit for him at this point in his career.

 

[Bruce]

I find it interesting that I wrote a post assessing the entire defensive backfield with very little focus on AC -- yet the thread gets high-jacked by the anti-Carroll folks.

No, I don't overvalue Carroll at all. I think he is a talented 22 year old with speed, toughness and upside. I also think he has learning and growing to do -- that is what upside means and what someone should expect when they draft a 20 year old with 2 years of college playing experience.

Carroll is not responsible for Mike McKenzie's melt down, he is not responsible for Slowik's clusterfluck defense that was a disaster, nor is he responsible for being only 20 years old being thrown to the lions during a year when the league changed the rules saying CB needed to wear skirts (after allowing them to mug receivers the season before).

No objective person could say they saw no improvement last season or that the guy is not an NFL player. At 20 years old he beat out the competition two years in a row to start in the NFL -- are you really so naive as to think that any bum can do that? How can you look at a team that went from close to dead last in pass defense to #1 and say you saw no improvement? Look at the numbers and try and make your evaluations based on something more than your emotional reaction to the guy. Do you really think you are a better evaluator than Bates -- who selected Carroll to start over the competition?

Once again I am going to try and steer this thread back to the original premise. The defensive backfield was a disaster two seasons ago. It made a very significant leap forward last season. Now for the first time in 4 years they will have the same system for two seasons in a row. They added significant talent in Woodson and by drafting Blackmon, and the raw young players like Collins, Carroll, Hawkins and a host of talented guys -- who will likely make it in the NFL but probably not in GB because of the depth -- have gained a season of experience and strength.

I am excited by the ability and potential that our Defensive backfield brings into the 2006 season.

You overvalue Caroll way to much. Will you continue to overvalue him if he doesn't improve. Again I hope your right but I saw a little improvement in him from year 1 to year 2. I hope he takes the big leap but I don't see it.

Like I said their are just so many misunderstandings one guy can have. This guy continues to show a cocky, ignorant attitude in my opinion. He has a lot of growing up to do. I hope your right in that he has done it.

I hope your right but I don't think you are. To me Carroll is a bust and won't see a contract extension. His play on the field speaks for itself. He's not a very good player and he can't cover the better WR's like Gamble can. Though the nickel role might be the perfect fit for him at this point in his career.

For example: While "the other safety position" is not as strong as the other three positions {Collins, Woodson and Harris), I love the fact that Manuel and Roman will be pushing each other. I would not be surprised if they both play depending upon the strength and style of the offense they face -- with Roman being a far better pass defender and Manuel being a big hitter who brings a LB mentality to the position.

I love the hungry competetive attitude that Marquand Groundhog Manuel is bringing to the table as a free agent signed to compete with incumbent Mark Roman for the other starting safety spot.

"Once a groundhog, always a groundhog," Manuel said. "I don't care what (anybody) says. You can make him fat, he's always going to show his true colors. He's always going to be a groundhog."

Manuel says he doesn't assume he will beat out Roman for the starting job. "I'm going to leave that up to the coaches, man," he said, adding that he has a good relationship with Roman.

"Finally somebody gave me an opportunity to come in and be a part of something," Manuel said. "(I'm not) wondering, 'Am I going to make the team?... Am I going to play?' All that's past right now. Now I can focus on different things. Now I can focus on trying to get everybody else on the same page I am. It's going to be fun."

Gotta love it!

 

[Since69]

Are you saying Carroll is better than Al Harris?

Carroll was easily better than Harris the last half of the season. I think there's a real chance that Harris will be the Nickel back.

Great post Bruce! Where do you get defensive stats like that?

BTW, I agree with your original post as well. I'm excited about or defense in general this year. Lots of youth, speed, talent and best of all - competition.

 

[warhawk]

I'm with you here Bruce.
Not only will the starting "D" be better we have depth in all positions.

After a few years of not seeing any significant upgrading, or, having quality backups, we have seen a reversal of this trend.

I know all of TT's moves have not been popular here but we have really needed to get deeper in talent and I have felt all along we could not realisticly contend until we did this.

We've also gotten ahold of some talented guys that will help our woefull special teams play.

 

[calicheesehead]

AC does have upside and we all did see improvement over the rookie year. As long as he stops grabbing he will be a fine CB. From what I saw last year he really just needs to work on his technique, he grabbed once he got out of position. He has shown improvement on that and you can argue that his grabbing was down from the previous year due to not getting out of position as much. Plus, I truly feel, he was over penalized this last year unfairly. A lot of his penalties were over reactions from the refs, since he's been labeled a grabber from his rookie year.

 

[Timmons]

It's members like Bruce that make this forum worthwhile. Not only are his posts well thought out, valuable and worth the time; they are grammatically correct, they spawn good conversation about the Pack, and yes Bruce's optimism is welcome.

I agree with the assessment about our backfield. I think there is a lot of upside.

For those of you who who think Carroll has not improved, I think you're wrong. Will he ever be a top flight corner? Who knows? But the fact is he got better as last year progressed. At this point, you can argue all you want, but the end of that story is up to Carroll.

Bruce, I orignally ran into your posts on packersnew.com and loved them. That site has gone downhill fast due to trolls with no value (such as fizz) and I am glad to have found you again here. Thanks for the time you put into the interesting information that you share.

 

[tromadz]

Are you saying Carroll is better than Al Harris?

Carroll was easily better than Harris the last half of the season. I think there's a real chance that Harris will be the Nickel back.

:shock:

 

[bozz_2006]

Are you saying Carroll is better than Al Harris?

Carroll was easily better than Harris the last half of the season. I think there's a real chance that Harris will be the Nickel back.

:shock:

:shock: i'm with you trom