Free Agent WRs (and TEs) in 2023 Discussion...

PikeBadger

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Agreed MLF shouldn’t be fired unless he continues to not fire Barry if Barry’s side is TERRIBLE again. Otherwise I’d say firing MLF this year of all years would be a massively ignorant move IMO.
Both LaFleur and Barry have an excellent opportunity this year to show what they got. This season is completely on them imo.

Edit: As well as the other position coaches. The overall talent level of the players is good enough to win the division imo.
 
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tynimiller

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I believe that MLF and Gutekunst will get a free pass for one season. If the team continues to struggle in 2024 it's possible that both will end up on the hot seat though.

Exactly - making 2023 serve as any justification of departing either of those two would flat out be dumb to do.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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The way I see it, the only non-player position that could and should be in jeopardy this season is DC Barry. If he continues to produce less with more, he has to go, even mid-season if necessary. Anyone entertaining the notion of Gute or MLF losing their jobs at the end of 2023 needs to look at their entire body of work, as well point the Packers into the right direction of who replaces them.

While Love is a 4th year guy, he is a first year starter. Expecting this team to compete for the division? You are most likely going to be disappointed and one of those wanting knee jerk reactions by firing everyone. The core team appears to be heading in the right direction, with a pretty large group of younger budding stars. If Love develops into a solid QB, the Packers will be on the right track sooner than later. If Love is a complete flop, then we probably see Gute going after his replacement as early as the 2024 draft.

TT handed Gute the keys to a team with just 4 solid players (Rodgers, Adams, Jones & Clark). Otherwise, TT's final 4-7 drafts were pretty pathetic and left the Packers very thin at most positions. Gute has done a damn good job IMO to restock and rebuild through the draft and free agency. He also dealt with something no GM wants to face, putting the team in a good position to be able to pivot away from its #1 star, if needed. Not to mention he pivoted away from a HC, that really wasn't all that bad.
 
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tynimiller

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The way I see it, the only non-player position that could and should be in jeopardy this season is DC Barry. If he continues to produce less with more, he has to go, even mid-season if necessary. Anyone entertaining the notion of Gute or MLF losing their jobs at the end of 2023 needs to look at their entire body of work, as well point the Packers into the right direction of who replaces them.

While Love is a 4th year guy, he is a first year starter. Expecting this team to compete for the division? You are most likely going to be disappointed and one of those wanting knee jerk reactions by firing everyone. The core team appears to be heading in the right direction, with a pretty large group of younger budding stars. If Love develops into a solid QB, the Packers will be on the right track sooner than later. If Love is a complete flop, then we probably see Gute going after his replacement as early as the 2024 draft.

TT handed Gute the keys to a team with just 4 solid players (Rodgers, Adams, Jones & Clark). Otherwise, TT's final 4-7 drafts were pretty pathetic and left the Packers very thin at most positions. Gute has done a damn good job IMO to restock and rebuild through the draft and free agency. He also dealt with something no GM wants to face, putting the team in a good position to be able to pivot away from its #1 star, if needed. Not to mention he pivoted away from a HC, that really wasn't all that bad.

Say it louder for those in the back (most of all this).

I've said all along I'll not be any more surprised if we fall into a .500 record with a couple weeks within clawing distance of a wildcard spot or if the NFC North ends up weak the division, but mostly I'm expecting more than Ws and Ls is growth and illustrations of abilities showcasing in our young guys...that can happen and be a two win team to the same degree it happens and we fall into a 10 win season.

My buddy that loves to bring forth hypotheticals for discussions over bourbon asked this:

Would you rather:

Finish with 9 wins, 6 of your losses were blowouts of the 17+ point type, defense was 20th overall ranking, Love threw 30 TDs and 20 Picks with 62% completion percentage

OR

Finish with 3 wins, only one loss by more than two scores, defense was just outside top 10, Love threw for only 27 TDs and 12 Picks with 65% completion percentage.


Now yes A TON more information would be needed unpacked but purely limiting the knowledge to that I'll take the 3 loss year given the state of our team and what we're doing this season.
 

Schultz

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The way I see it, the only non-player position that could and should be in jeopardy this season is DC Barry. If he continues to produce less with more, he has to go, even mid-season if necessary. Anyone entertaining the notion of Gute or MLF losing their jobs at the end of 2023 needs to look at their entire body of work, as well point the Packers into the right direction of who replaces them.

While Love is a 4th year guy, he is a first year starter. Expecting this team to compete for the division? You are most likely going to be disappointed and one of those wanting knee jerk reactions by firing everyone. The core team appears to be heading in the right direction, with a pretty large group of younger budding stars. If Love develops into a solid QB, the Packers will be on the right track sooner than later. If Love is a complete flop, then we probably see Gute going after his replacement as early as the 2024 draft.

TT handed Gute the keys to a team with just 4 solid players (Rodgers, Adams, Jones & Clark). Otherwise, TT's final 4-7 drafts were pretty pathetic and left the Packers very thin at most positions. Gute has done a damn good job IMO to restock and rebuild through the draft and free agency. He also dealt with something no GM wants to face, putting the team in a good position to be able to pivot away from its #1 star, if needed. Not to mention he pivoted away from a HC, that really wasn't all that bad.
I would add Bakh to your list to make it 5. Now that doesn't change your point which I happen to agree with. That doesn't mean I still do not have the same issue with the 1st 3 picks of the 2020 draft now that I did then. To me Gute is the perfect girl, cooks, cleans, smart, attractive, laughs at your jokes (even oldschools) but has one flaw. To me the 2020 draft is the perfect girl speaking ill of my mom.
 

milani

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I don't think you can LaFleur if the team struggles. The team this season will have very few actual expectations apart from seeing what they can put out there. If they suck, so be it. Let them build a contender again.
Expectation tends to define the evaluation. Most certainly. But at 0-8 is the team that bad or has the coach lost control. E.G. Ray Rhodes was a HC who lacked leadership for the role. Yet he finished .500 in 1999 and was in the playoff hunt even on the final week of the season. Mike Sherman had 4 post seasons and 3 straight division titles before a 4-12 season doomed him.
 

GreenNGold_81

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Expectation tends to define the evaluation. Most certainly. But at 0-8 is the team that bad or has the coach lost control. E.G. Ray Rhodes was a HC who lacked leadership for the role. Yet he finished .500 in 1999 and was in the playoff hunt even on the final week of the season. Mike Sherman had 4 post seasons and 3 straight division titles before a 4-12 season doomed him.
Sure, but those were win now teams with Favre being a future HOF'er it's up to the GM to build a team around him and for the coach to keep them competing at a high level. In this case, we're no longer in win now IMO, so as long as Packer brass believes LaFleur can light a fire under his players then he's the man.
 

milani

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Sure, but those were win now teams with Favre being a future HOF'er it's up to the GM to build a team around him and for the coach to keep them competing at a high level. In this case, we're no longer in win now IMO, so as long as Packer brass believes LaFleur can light a fire under his players then he's the man.
I agree. But 0-8 can lead to 0-16 and we know what happened to that coach in Detroit whose team was going nowhere from the get go.
 
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I would add Bakh to your list to make it 5. Now that doesn't change your point which I happen to agree with. That doesn't mean I still do not have the same issue with the 1st 3 picks of the 2020 draft now that I did then. To me Gute is the perfect girl, cooks, cleans, smart, attractive, laughs at your jokes (even oldschools) but has one flaw. To me the 2020 draft is the perfect girl speaking ill of my mom.
That was actually pretty funny. Good stuff. When you start to get to know the personalities in here posts become just full of life. It was a bit alien like but it’s all good we’ll take what we can get!
You know at one time I was actually planning on making people laugh and doing some “Stand Up”. But every time I did they cried and shouted “Sit Down!”
I don’t get no respect I tell ya! No respect
Last night I told my Kid about the Birds and the Bees.. when I got done he told me about my Wife and the Butcher!
 
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Edit: As well as the other position coaches. The overall talent level of the players is good enough to win the division imo.

I think you will be disappointed if you truly believe the Packers are good enough to win the division in 2023.

Say it louder for those in the back (most of all this).

I've said all along I'll not be any more surprised if we fall into a .500 record with a couple weeks within clawing distance of a wildcard spot or if the NFC North ends up weak the division, but mostly I'm expecting more than Ws and Ls is growth and illustrations of abilities showcasing in our young guys...that can happen and be a two win team to the same degree it happens and we fall into a 10 win season.

My buddy that loves to bring forth hypotheticals for discussions over bourbon asked this:

Would you rather:

Finish with 9 wins, 6 of your losses were blowouts of the 17+ point type, defense was 20th overall ranking, Love threw 30 TDs and 20 Picks with 62% completion percentage

OR

Finish with 3 wins, only one loss by more than two scores, defense was just outside top 10, Love threw for only 27 TDs and 12 Picks with 65% completion percentage.

I highly doubt the Packers would only win three games if Love puts up numbers like that.

With that being said I honestly don't care about the team's record that much as I don't expect them to get anywhere near making the playoffs. But, I want to see Love showing some promise with other young players developing into solid contributors along the way. I would consider that to be a success this upcoming season.

Expectation tends to define the evaluation. Most certainly. But at 0-8 is the team that bad or has the coach lost control.

If MLF lost control over the locker room he would have to be fired. I don't see that happening though.
 

milani

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That was actually pretty funny. Good stuff. When you start to get to know the personalities in here posts become just full of life. It was a bit alien like but it’s all good we’ll take what we can get!
You know at one time I was actually planning on making people laugh and doing some “Stand Up”. But every time I did they cried and shouted “Sit Down!”
I don’t get no respect I tell ya! No respect
Last night I told my Kid about the Birds and the Bees.. when I got done he told me about my Wife and the Butcher!
Sorry, Rodney!
 

Schultz

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That was actually pretty funny. Good stuff. When you start to get to know the personalities in here posts become just full of life. It was a bit alien like but it’s all good we’ll take what we can get!
You know at one time I was actually planning on making people laugh and doing some “Stand Up”. But every time I did they cried and shouted “Sit Down!”
I don’t get no respect I tell ya! No respect
Last night I told my Kid about the Birds and the Bees.. when I got done he told me about my Wife and the Butcher!
That's why when I attempt humor when posting I am already sitting down.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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I would add Bakh to your list to make it 5. Now that doesn't change your point which I happen to agree with. That doesn't mean I still do not have the same issue with the 1st 3 picks of the 2020 draft now that I did then. To me Gute is the perfect girl, cooks, cleans, smart, attractive, laughs at your jokes (even oldschools) but has one flaw. To me the 2020 draft is the perfect girl speaking ill of my mom.
It's funny, I typed "5 solid players" and then typed the name of the players and accidently left off Bahk, recounted and changed it to 4. So yeah, Bahk should be included for sure. I also should have pointed out that 4 of the 5 on that list of solid players that TT passed on to Gute, play on offense. Considering the draft assets that TT pumped into the defense before he left, a very telling evolution of why the defense has been such a big issue over the last several seasons.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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Would you rather:

Finish with 9 wins, 6 of your losses were blowouts of the 17+ point type, defense was 20th overall ranking, Love threw 30 TDs and 20 Picks with 62% completion percentage

OR

Finish with 3 wins, only one loss by more than two scores, defense was just outside top 10, Love threw for only 27 TDs and 12 Picks with 65% completion percentage.
An obvious YES, for me on option #2. I know some LOVE the individual game wins, but I prefer to look at the big picture and the future. Who here remembers the Packers win last season against the Rams? The win against the Dolphins? What I would remember is Joe Barry getting fired, Jordan Love playing in several games and the Packers picking in the top 5 of every round. The future impact that those players might have had on the Packers 2023 season and beyond. I would rather forget about what came out of a meaningless 8-9 season.

I hate to admit it, but it would have been more exciting to be a Bear fan in the off season. Fields appears to possibly be on the rise, the Texans hand them the #1 pick in the draft, which they convert to a bevy of picks and they have a pretty decent draft. Sure, the Packers still own the Bears, but those 2 wins against the Bears, cost the Packers more than it benefited them, IMO.
 

SudsMcBucky

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An obvious YES, for me on option #2. I know some LOVE the individual game wins, but I prefer to look at the big picture and the future. Who here remembers the Packers win last season against the Rams? The win against the Dolphins? What I would remember is Joe Barry getting fired, Jordan Love playing in several games and the Packers picking in the top 5 of every round. The future impact that those players might have had on the Packers 2023 season and beyond. I would rather forget about what came out of a meaningless 8-9 season.

I hate to admit it, but it would have been more exciting to be a Bear fan in the off season. Fields appears to possibly be on the rise, the Texans hand them the #1 pick in the draft, which they convert to a bevy of picks and they have a pretty decent draft. Sure, the Packers still own the Bears, but those 2 wins against the Bears, cost the Packers more than it benefited them, IMO.
I hate to say it but I'll raise my hand to remembering the Rams win. I was at that game. :roflmao:
 
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tynimiller

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I highly doubt the Packers would only win three games if Love puts up numbers like that.

So the crazy thing is the 27 TDs 12 INTs and around 65% completion with only three wins isn't odd really....just a few examples in past three years in NFL:

Derek Carr is similar line 61% comp 24 TDs and 14 INTs in 2022 and Raiders won 6 (two OT wins)
Bengals in 2020...Burrow through ten games was on pace for similar, through ten he had 13 TDs and 5 INTs with a 65.35%...at that mark Bengals were 2-7-1
Texans in 2020 as well....Watson MONSTER numbers - 33TDs 7 INTs and 70.2% completion. They win 4 games.
2021 Goff...now remember he only played 14 games so would have been close. In 14 he put up 19TDs 8INTs and 67.2%....they won 3 games.
2020 Matt Ryan....26TDs 11INTs and 65%....4 wins.....he actually did similar also back in 2013 where he put up 26TDs and 17INTs with a 67.4% and they only won 4.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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Agreed MLF shouldn’t be fired unless he continues to not fire Barry if Barry’s side is TERRIBLE again. Otherwise I’d say firing MLF this year of all years would be a massively ignorant move IMO.
As much as I wanted to see Barry fired, there must be something about him that MLF sees. He gave Pettine 3 years to prove himself, maybe he is doing the same with Barry. Personally, I think Pettine did more, with less.
 
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tynimiller

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As much as I wanted to see Barry fired, there must be something about him that MLF sees. He gave Pettine 3 years to prove himself, maybe he is doing the same with Barry. Personally, I think Pettine did more, with less.

100%
 

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As much as I wanted to see Barry fired, there must be something about him that MLF sees. He gave Pettine 3 years to prove himself, maybe he is doing the same with Barry. Personally, I think Pettine did more, with less.
It's almost as if MLF is afraid to let Barry go so soon (and admitting he made a mistake to begin with) so other potential DC's don't get scared to come here and getting a reputation as running DC's off very quickly.
 
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I’d actually trade Barry for Pettine right now. I have nothing personal against Barry he seems really nice on a personal level. I do not believe he’s a top 50% DC. Imo he’s a very knowledgeable 35% percentile area Coordinator.
I’d really like to be proved wrong on this one.
 

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So the crazy thing is the 27 TDs 12 INTs and around 65% completion with only three wins isn't odd really....just a few examples in past three years in NFL:

Derek Carr is similar line 61% comp 24 TDs and 14 INTs in 2022 and Raiders won 6 (two OT wins)
Bengals in 2020...Burrow through ten games was on pace for similar, through ten he had 13 TDs and 5 INTs with a 65.35%...at that mark Bengals were 2-7-1
Texans in 2020 as well....Watson MONSTER numbers - 33TDs 7 INTs and 70.2% completion. They win 4 games.
2021 Goff...now remember he only played 14 games so would have been close. In 14 he put up 19TDs 8INTs and 67.2%....they won 3 games.
2020 Matt Ryan....26TDs 11INTs and 65%....4 wins.....he actually did similar also back in 2013 where he put up 26TDs and 17INTs with a 67.4% and they only won 4.
Did any of those have a borderline top 10 defense as mentioned in the hypothetical?
Personally this season I expect to be watching meaningful games yet after Thanksgiving. During the gory years that happened now and then.
 
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So the crazy thing is the 27 TDs 12 INTs and around 65% completion with only three wins isn't odd really....just a few examples in past three years in NFL:

Derek Carr is similar line 61% comp 24 TDs and 14 INTs in 2022 and Raiders won 6 (two OT wins)
Bengals in 2020...Burrow through ten games was on pace for similar, through ten he had 13 TDs and 5 INTs with a 65.35%...at that mark Bengals were 2-7-1
Texans in 2020 as well....Watson MONSTER numbers - 33TDs 7 INTs and 70.2% completion. They win 4 games.
2021 Goff...now remember he only played 14 games so would have been close. In 14 he put up 19TDs 8INTs and 67.2%....they won 3 games.
2020 Matt Ryan....26TDs 11INTs and 65%....4 wins.....he actually did similar also back in 2013 where he put up 26TDs and 17INTs with a 67.4% and they only won 4.

Good find, I would have though quarterbacks putting up numbers like that automatically results in their teams winning more games.

Did any of those have a borderline top 10 defense as mentioned in the hypothetical?

No, the 2020 Falcons had the best defense out of those teams, finishing 19th in points allowed.
 
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tynimiller

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Did any of those have a borderline top 10 defense as mentioned in the hypothetical?
Personally this season I expect to be watching meaningful games yet after Thanksgiving. During the gory years that happened now and then.

I did not as the posed thought was centered more on Loves line - which honestly till Capt said what he did I had no clue if it was realistic or not and didn’t know if there were recent examples.
 
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