Free Agency: Packers Should Green Bay Pursue?

[HardRightEdge]

The Packers don't have an elite defensive line with Clark though and without him the unit would be terrible. Therefore they should look at other positions to save cap space if needed.

Obviously, Clark is under contract for 2020. We don't know who or how many D-Linemen the Packers will draft this year, how those guys and the incumbents will show this season, and then there's next year's free agency and draft.

The question is a 2021 question and we cannot make an assessment at this time as to what the rest of the D-Line will look like.

The question is whether he should be extended at $x price to the exclusion of other considerations. That $x price may be the sticking point. Another sticking point might be a whomping signing bonus in a backloaded contract which is effectively in part advance pay for current and future seasons. What if games are not paid? It appears that unlike salary which might be withheld, that signing bonus would be out the door without the games where it would in part be earned.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Obviously, Clark is under contract for 2020. We don't know who or how many D-Linemen the Packers will draft this year, how those guys and the incumbents will show this season, and then there's next year's free agency and draft.

The question is a 2021 question and we cannot make an assessment at this time as to what the rest of the D-Line will look like.

The question is whether he should be extended at $x price to the exclusion of other considerations. That $x price may be the sticking point. Another sticking point might be a whomping signing bonus in a backloaded contract which is effectively in part advance pay for current and future seasons. What if games are not paid? It appears that unlike salary which might be withheld, that signing bonus would be out the door without the games where it would in part be earned.

I agree that he shouldn’t be resigned until we see how the rest of FA and the draft plays out. Unfortunately, I don’t think there will be any OTAs this year....

Even so, Gluten and MLF can make some kind of assessment of what they’ve got. Wait until week 4 or 5 and then extend him.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Obviously, Clark is under contract for 2020. We don't know who or how many D-Linemen the Packers will draft this year, how those guys and the incumbents will show this season, and then there's next year's free agency and draft.

The question is a 2021 question and we cannot make an assessment at this time as to what the rest of the D-Line will look like.

The question is whether he should be extended at $x price to the exclusion of other considerations. That $x price may be the sticking point. Another sticking point might be a whomping signing bonus in a backloaded contract which is effectively in part advance pay for current and future seasons. What if games are not paid? It appears that unlike salary which might be withheld, that signing bonus would be out the door without the games where it would in part be earned.

I'm fine with the Packers waiting to sign Clark to an extension but with other positions in dire need of an upgrade and limited cap space available I highly doubt they can afford to let him walk away in free agency next offseason.

In addition there has been talk about trading him now which is insane taking a look at the depth chart on the defensive line and considering the team would save more cap space by releasing Linsley.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Obviously, Clark is under contract for 2020. We don't know who or how many D-Linemen the Packers will draft this year, how those guys and the incumbents will show this season, and then there's next year's free agency and draft.

The question is a 2021 question and we cannot make an assessment at this time as to what the rest of the D-Line will look like.

The question is whether he should be extended at $x price to the exclusion of other considerations. That $x price may be the sticking point. Another sticking point might be a whomping signing bonus in a backloaded contract which is effectively in part advance pay for current and future seasons. What if games are not paid? It appears that unlike salary which might be withheld, that signing bonus would be out the door without the games where it would in part be earned.

You’re right HRE, we’re all looking a little too far ahead as far as Clark. We don’t even know for sure if there will be a 2020 season, or if there is, what it will look like. As far as contracts, that could take a room full of lawyers to figure out (if the 2020 season is cancelled, or more likely, delayed).

 

[Sunshinepacker]

The Packers don't have an elite defensive line with Clark though and without him the unit would be terrible. Therefore they should look at other positions to save cap space if needed.

Ok, then go from being above average to below average on the dline but above average at 2-3 other positions. Would you prefer to be better at one position and weak at a couple others or weak at one and decent at a couple of others?

 

[Dantés]

Ok, then go from being above average to below average on the dline but above average at 2-3 other positions. Would you prefer to be better at one position and weak at a couple others or weak at one and decent at a couple of others?

You're using "above average" as both the qualifier for Clark and for the projected guys you'd pay for with the money you save from letting him go. That's too broad.

You also continue to overestimate what could be done with Clark's price tag if spread out.

Say that Clark ends up costing 16M/season, but by paying that you get elite play at 1T (top 3-5 at his position).

So you take that 16 and spread it out on a CB, WR, and lesser DL.

If you decide to go with the cheaper NT variety that doesn't offer anything on passing downs, you're talking about the Michael Pierce range of 9M.

So that leaves you 7M to spend on a CB and/or a WR. You can now afford a mediocre slot receiver or slot corner, and not both.

So you've taken one of the best DL in the league at 24 and turned him into two mediocre role players.

If you try to go cheaper at one place or another, you're now not even talking about being average at both spots, but rather turning one of them into a liability.

 

[Favre>Rodgers259]

Any cap guys can figure what Tramon and Delanie Walker would cost us realistically? I'm betting Tramon signs for $4.5-$5M.

I'm not sure what Delanie would command, coming off I believe an $8M salary what's his market? Another $4M?

I'm convinced Tramon is at least a post Draft signing. Gute will jump if the right CB falls but otherwise that's his fail safe.

Walker I'm about 60% the Packers give him a second look right before OTAs/camp. It's all about the money.

@HardRightEdge you're the Russ Ball of the Forum.

 

[Dantés]

Any cap guys can figure what Tramon and Delanie Walker would cost us realistically? I'm betting Tramon signs for $4.5-$5M.

I'm not sure what Delanie would command, coming off I believe an $8M salary what's his market? Another $4M?

I'm convinced Tramon is at least a post Draft signing. Gute will jump if the right CB falls but otherwise that's his fail safe.

Walker I'm about 60% the Packers give him a second look right before OTAs/camp. It's all about the money.

@HardRightEdge you're the Russ Ball of the Forum.

I think the odds are good that Tramon signs eventually, but I also wonder if they'd like to get more physical at slot corner. A lot of teams are moving away from the smaller traditional nickel and looking to bigger, more physical safeties who have the skills to cover in the slot. That gives you a little bit back in the running game when you're in sub so much.

 

[Favre>Rodgers259]

I'd never call Tramon soft by any means. But I get what you're saying.

 

[Dantés]

I'd never call Tramon soft by any means. But I get what you're saying.

I wouldn't call him soft, I would call him 37 years old and 191 lbs.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

You're using "above average" as both the qualifier for Clark and for the projected guys you'd pay for with the money you save from letting him go. That's too broad.

You also continue to overestimate what could be done with Clark's price tag if spread out.

Say that Clark ends up costing 16M/season, but by paying that you get elite play at 1T (top 3-5 at his position).

So you take that 16 and spread it out on a CB, WR, and lesser DL.

If you decide to go with the cheaper NT variety that doesn't offer anything on passing downs, you're talking about the Michael Pierce range of 9M.

So that leaves you 7M to spend on a CB and/or a WR. You can now afford a mediocre slot receiver or slot corner, and not both.

So you've taken one of the best DL in the league at 24 and turned him into two mediocre role players.

If you try to go cheaper at one place or another, you're now not even talking about being average at both spots, but rather turning one of them into a liability.

Ignore Clark then, forget Clark, do you think being average at one position and weak at 2-3 others is better than being weak at one position and average at 2-3 others? Because looking at potential contracts, that is very much a possible outcome.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Ignore Clark then, forget Clark, do you think being average at one position and weak at 2-3 others is better than being weak at one position and average at 2-3 others? Because looking at potential contracts, that is very much a possible outcome.

Sunshine, clearly the second option is preferred in the either/or situation you describe.

That said, I don’t see trading Clark as a good decision for GB. TT wasn’t a great GM, but he was right to try as hard as possible to keep talented people on the roster.

 

[Dantés]

Ignore Clark then, forget Clark, do you think being average at one position and weak at 2-3 others is better than being weak at one position and average at 2-3 others? Because looking at potential contracts, that is very much a possible outcome.

Of course everyone would prefer the latter if we take that completely in a vacuum. But the point I'm making is that it's irrelevant, because that hypothetical doesn't relate to the Clark situation.

Having Clark is not being "average" at one position.

Letting Clark go would not provide enough cap relief to buy even average talent at 2 other positions, let alone three.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Of course everyone would prefer the latter if we take that completely in a vacuum. But the point I'm making is that it's irrelevant, because that hypothetical doesn't relate to the Clark situation.

Having Clark is not being "average" at one position.

Letting Clark go would not provide enough cap relief to buy even average talent at 2 other positions, let alone three.

It absolutely would. Again, ignore Clark, if you have $16m a year to spend at two other position groups, you can absolutely get average to above-average players. Emmanuel Sanders signed for $8-$9m per year, Eric Ebron signed for $6m per year, the Chargers signed Chris Jones Jr for $10m per year, Brian Poole signed for $5m, Mackensie Alexander signed for $4m...that $16m per year allows you to sign three of those guys or, with a couple million extra, could add Saners and Chris Jones Jr. I would say that would easily make the receiving group abover average and the secondary to above average, yes?

I love Kenny Clark, I just want to think about whether spending a ton at one position (that's not QB, CB, or edge rusher) is worth spending less at multiple positions.

 

[GleefulGary]

People don't seem to see the impact Kenny Clark has on this team. He's a top tier iDL, and he's 24. You'd be crazy to let him walk.

 

[Dantés]

It absolutely would. Again, ignore Clark, if you have $16m a year to spend at two other position groups, you can absolutely get average to above-average players. Emmanuel Sanders signed for $8-$9m per year, Eric Ebron signed for $6m per year, the Chargers signed Chris Jones Jr for $10m per year, Brian Poole signed for $5m, Mackensie Alexander signed for $4m...that $16m per year allows you to sign three of those guys or, with a couple million extra, could add Saners and Chris Jones Jr. I would say that would easily make the receiving group abover average and the secondary to above average, yes?

I love Kenny Clark, I just want to think about whether spending a ton at one position (that's not QB, CB, or edge rusher) is worth spending less at multiple positions.

Your illustration said that letting him go would be to become weak at one position (DL) and average at 2-3 others.

So that means that you've got to replace him at that one position, and then purchase average help at 2-3 other spots.

Signing Sanders and Poole basically uses up the space, and you haven't even done anything to replace Clark.

If you'd rather have Emmanuel Sanders and Brian Poole than Kenny Clark, I cannot help you.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Your illustration said that letting him go would be to become weak at one position (DL) and average at 2-3 others.

So that means that you've got to replace him at that one position, and then purchase average help at 2-3 other spots.

Signing Sanders and Poole basically uses up the space, and you haven't even done anything to replace Clark.

If you'd rather have Emmanuel Sanders and Brian Poole than Kenny Clark, I cannot help you.

Just my opinion, but trading away a 24-year old top 5 NT is nuts. Gluten will find some help for Clark and the DL either through cap casualties, the draft, or possibly a trade. Clark is the perfect guy to build around. GB hasn’t drafted that well. Clark stands out as a big (literally) exception.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Your illustration said that letting him go would be to become weak at one position (DL) and average at 2-3 others.

So that means that you've got to replace him at that one position, and then purchase average help at 2-3 other spots.

Signing Sanders and Poole basically uses up the space, and you haven't even done anything to replace Clark.

If you'd rather have Emmanuel Sanders and Brian Poole than Kenny Clark, I cannot help you.

I didn't say that, I actually said ignore Clark. I was simply asking if spending $16m at one position (except QB, CB, or Edge Rusher) is better than spreading that money out at multiple positions. Is one elite player worth 2-3 good or above-average players?

 

[Heyjoe4]

I didn't say that, I actually said ignore Clark. I was simply asking if spending $16m at one position (except QB, CB, or Edge Rusher) is better than spreading that money out at multiple positions. Is one elite player worth 2-3 good or above-average players?

Yes. An elite player with top 3 to top 5 production is a keeper, period. Unless someone makes an insane trade proposal, as was the case when the Bears traded for Khalil Mack. (And even with that example, the Bears may regret the draft capital they had to give up.)

 

[Dantés]

I didn't say that, I actually said ignore Clark. I was simply asking if spending $16m at one position (except QB, CB, or Edge Rusher) is better than spreading that money out at multiple positions. Is one elite player worth 2-3 good or above-average players?

You did. But whatever.

Ignore Clark then, forget Clark, do you think being average at one position and weak at 2-3 others is better than being weak at one position and average at 2-3 others? Because looking at potential contracts, that is very much a possible outcome.

Again, you are unrealistic in what you the Packers could do with the money.

If you want a competent, starting iDL in place of Clark to stop the run, the going rate is around 8M, conservatively:

• Jordan Phillips, ARI: 10M
• Michael Pierce, MIN: 9M
• Linval Joseph, LAC: 8.5M
• A'Shawn Robinson, LAR: 8.5M
• Ndamukong Suh, TB: 8M

If we're estimating 16M for Clark, that eats up half. And then you think you're going to go get 2-3 average to above average players with the rest? That's crazy.

Recent WR contracts, under 10M AAV:

• Randall Cobb, HOU: 9M
• Emmanuel Sanders, NO: 8M
• Breshad Perriman, NYJ: 6.5M
• Danny Amendola, DET: 5M

Recent CB contracts, under 10M AAV:

• Chris Harris Jr, LAC: 8.5M
• Janoris Jenkins, NO: 8.4M
• Josh Norman, BUF: 6M
• Anthony Brown, DAL: 5.2M
• Brian Poole, NYJ: 5M

If you want to deal in the reality of current NFL market contracts, then letting Clark walk will buy you a two down run-stuffer, hopefully a young one but very likely an old, declining player, and one of the following at WR or CB: an old, declining player or a young, unproven player, on a 1-2 year deal in either case.

That's the alternative, and that's why the answer is obvious-- keeping Clark is a no brainer.

 

[Heyjoe4]

To attempt to get back to the original thread - it looks like GB is done chasing WRs in FA after the Funchess signing. The Athletic posited that the Rams could send Brandin Cooks to GB for a 2020 4th round pick, and a conditional pick in 2021.

A 4th round pick seems cheap for a guy like Cooks. But...... this is a WR-rich draft, and Cooks didn’t exactly light it up last year with the Rams. I liked the guy when he was in NO and NE, but have concerns about an otherwise talented guy who gets moved around so much.

Thoughts? I’d be ok with the trade FWIW.

 

[Mondio]

To attempt to get back to the original thread - it looks like GB is done chasing WRs in FA after the Funchess signing. The Athletic posited that the Rams could send Brandin Cooks to GB for a 2020 4th round pick, and a conditional pick in 2021.

A 4th round pick seems cheap for a guy like Cooks. But...... this is a WR-rich draft, and Cooks didn’t exactly light it up last year with the Rams. I liked the guy when he was in NO and NE, but have concerns about an otherwise talented guy who gets moved around so much.

Thoughts? I’d be ok with the trade FWIW.

there is a 12 million dollar this year price tag that we have to fit in there somehow though.

 

[Dantés]

To attempt to get back to the original thread - it looks like GB is done chasing WRs in FA after the Funchess signing. The Athletic posited that the Rams could send Brandin Cooks to GB for a 2020 4th round pick, and a conditional pick in 2021.

A 4th round pick seems cheap for a guy like Cooks. But...... this is a WR-rich draft, and Cooks didn’t exactly light it up last year with the Rams. I liked the guy when he was in NO and NE, but have concerns about an otherwise talented guy who gets moved around so much.

Thoughts? I’d be ok with the trade FWIW.

Cooks is potentially one more concussion away from retiring, or at a minimum sitting out an entire season.

 

[Heyjoe4]

there is a 12 million dollar this year price tag that we have to fit in there somehow though.

Ouch, that I didn’t know. I thought the Athletic said it was $8 mil, but even that’s too high I suppose, and Dantes just brought up his concussion history. One more and he’ll retire, and that’s if he’s lucky. Thanks guys. Pass........ (no pun intended). Looks like Gluten will have to count on the draft, or a cap casualty. Out of the FA WRs still out there, no one really seems very interesting to me.

I wonder if Gluten was ever really serious about bringing in a WR via FA, or more likely, that a deal to his liking never materialized. They’ve all seemed too expensive, and the reality of 2021, with Bak, Clark, and Jones all FAs, he has to keep a lot of cap powder dry just to hold serve. Well, hopefully Funchess can add something, as can a round 1 WR. It would also help if Lazard can continue to improve, and if one of those other guys can up their respective game.

 

[Mondio]

I think it was 8 salary, but had some bonuses etc that depending on when they're to be paid brings it up to 12. I think