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Five For The Defensive Line

Discussion in 'Draft Talk' started by Curly Calhoun, Apr 12, 2016.

  1. Curly Calhoun

    Curly Calhoun Cheesehead

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  2. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    If we´re talking about the first round I would prefer Jarran Reed out of the group. In my opinion Chris Jones is a very talented defensive lineman flying under the radar and would be a great pickup in the second round if he´s still left on the board.
     
  3. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    I'm guessing Reed will be off the board.

    Jones is a high upside guy with a lower floor than many of the other candidates in the top 2 rounds. His inconsistency and motor are a concern for me. In the 2nd. round, I'd prefer a guy with a little less natural talent, like Austin Johnson, who plays to the whistle for 60 minutes.
     
  4. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    There's no denying he has lacked effort at times. He's tremendously gifted physically though and if he's still there in the second round will be extremely hard to pass on in my opinion.
     
  5. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    I believe Johnson has dropped because of the Ohio St. game. nfl.com makes note of his "frustration" playing against OSU center Boren, a 285 lb. senior center who's not projected to be drafted.

    Watching the first 25 minutes of that game, there was no question Boren was pushing him around. As the game wore on Johnson was getting wins in one-on-one. Whether Johnson wore the guy down or figured something out is hard to tell.

    Boren was exploiting Johnson's technique issues in playing too high. We've seen the Packers success in cleaning that up. That's easier to fix than trying to "motivate" a guy like Jones, and I put motivate in quotes because I question in general the effectiveness of external sticks or carrots.

    Whatever one might think of Johnson's performance against OSU, he played hard to the whistle past the point where the game was out of reach. Best motor among DTs in this draft, with physical attributes to work with. One might even get lucky and find him in the 3rd. round, but not the bottom of that round.

    Or maybe I'm projecting my disgust with Raji's absent motor lo those many years. I don't think so.
     
  6. Eli Haugen

    Eli Haugen Cheesehead

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    Vernon Butler is sounding more and more like a GB pick at #27. Bring him, and Kenny clark in the 2nd. And I will be happy.
     
  7. Sunshinepacker

    Sunshinepacker Cheesehead

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    How is that more people aren't talking about Chris Jones? If, by some miracle, a case of idiocy strikes every team above Green Bay then the packers should take Jones and send a thank you basket to every team above them! Heck, he's one of the few guys I would advocate trading up for if he gets within 5 or so spots of where Green Bay is picking. I just don't get why this guy isn't being talked about like a top-10 player. His motor is questionable but the guy is only a junior, give him some time to grow up.
     
  8. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    I understand your reluctancy to draft Jones in the first round because of his questionable motor. But as I´ve said before he´s too talented to pass on him if he´s still on the board in the second round. There´s no denying Johnson has a great work ethic but unfortunately he´s nowhere near as talented as Jones.

    I wouldn´t be mad if the Packers end up with one of them although I do prefer other defensive lineman. Thompson shouldn´t use both of the team´s first two picks on the position though.

    A lot of other defensive lineman in this year´s draft are juniors as well, I´m not sure he will ever be able to change his work ethic.
     
  9. Sunshinepacker

    Sunshinepacker Cheesehead

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    The think with Jones is that, even if he never changes his motor, his skill level is so much beyond most of the others that he'll still probably end up a better player. The guy is a physical freak and shows flashes of ability that are simply beyond the majority of the other dlinemen talked about in the first round.
     
  10. Curly Calhoun

    Curly Calhoun Cheesehead

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    There's a lot to like about Chris Jones, although I don't know if he'll be a nose tackle in the NFL. In a 3-4 scheme he might be more of an end.
     
  11. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    There are a lot of examples of highly talented players not working out in the NFL because of a lack of motivation.

    Jones would for sure play defensive end in a 3-4.
     
  12. Sunshinepacker

    Sunshinepacker Cheesehead

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    He would certainly play end but it's not like Packers have a surfeit of great dlinemen. Plus, Jones would certainly be able to move inside on passing downs.
     
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  13. HardRightEdge

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    There is no way Jones is a NT. If you look at the tape, all those flash plays are when he's gapping and jet rushing.

    When he's double teamed or is initially neutralized on a man-up block, that's when he quits.

    He's a player for "release the hounds" jet rushes, something Capers has gone away from since 2011. Raji has attested to that.

    Let's consider how the Packer pass rush has operated in recent years.

    1. How often do you see the OLBs spin inside off the snap without a stunt for outside pocket contain? Never. The only times you see an unprotected spin move is when the OLB is several steps into a wide rush after contain has been reasonably established, coming back laterally to toward the QB.

    2. How often do you see dip and rip off the edge? Not often. Capers has said unequivocally he hates seeing his edge rushers pushed around the back of the pocket, which is the frequent outcome if the rip does not compromise the OT off the snap. Watch Peppers and Matthews...on the preponderance of rushes they play heads-up, eyes on the QB, maintain wide contain, then work back inside. Perry can rip and dip; one is taken aback that once or twice per year he uses it.

    3. Jet rushes? Increasingly uncommon. The D-Lineman are charged with maintaining interior spacing discipline, while pushing the pocket.

    4. Blitz a lot.

    The idea is maintain pocket contain and squeeze it, eliminate escape routes, and get the QB in a confined target zone. They lean on the secondary to get the play to 2.5 seconds (with nickel/dime going to 80% last season), and then aim to get to the QB with the second move, the second effort and the blitz.

    This also illustrates why you need a good coverage/Will ILB. You don't want the QB to have that consistent check-down and short crossing option available as an out.

    This is not a ramblin' gamblin' downhill attacking defense. It's about discipline, containment, limiting play extension, limiting options, and forcing mistakes in the process.

    Were the talent level higher in the front 7 would Capers use a more attacking style as in 2010? Perhaps. But Jones is not the guy to elevate to that level on his own. He might end up just playing 3-tech in long yardage.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2016
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  14. Sunshinepacker

    Sunshinepacker Cheesehead

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    True, but there are far more players that don't work out because of a lack of talent. It's not as if Jones NEVER tries, he just takes plays off, something that can be said of many talented college defensive linemen who weigh upwards of 300lbs.
     
  15. Sunshinepacker

    Sunshinepacker Cheesehead

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    First, as you pointed out, Capers didn't have attacking style dlinemen so of course he stopped playing that style. Asking Howard Green, Ryan Pickett and BJ Raji to attack the QB wouldn't make for a very sound defensive gameplan.

    As for your comments on Chris Jones' play, I'll simply say that it appears you're focusing on the negative. Look at his positives too. He's amazingly strong, he has 34.5" arms and olinemen can't touch him and his speed is crazy good; his 10-yard split at the combine was 1.7 seconds! I don't care how fast a lineman's 40 is but that 10-yard split is elite for a guy weighing over 300lbs.

    As for his play, yes, there are plays where he doesn't give any effort. However, there are also plays where he simply destroys the oline, defeating double teams with ease and looking like a top-5 player in this draft. Teams have coaches and "locker room presences" for a reason, trust in those guys to get Jones to work harder. If you don't trust your dline coach to get Jones to try, then find a better coach. That's not even to mention the potential influence that a guy like Mike Daniels could have on Jones.

    Basically, I'd rather take a chance on the guy that could, if you can motivate him, easily be the best defensive player in this draft.

    This whole discussion is moot though since I expect the Jets to take him and let him replace Wilkerson after the season.
     
  16. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    Actually, as noted, Capers played a more attacking style in 2010, as I noted. It was in 2011 that Capers started taking away Raji's jet rushes. There was Jenkins having a career year. Pickett had not yet gone into decline. Woodson was playing a lot of what we might call a box safety or an LB hybrid.

    I focus on the negative and the positives. I noted his flash plays on jet rushes.

    I'm highly skeptical of wishful thinking about changing a guys work effort, whether it's on the field or off.
     
  17. Mondio

    Mondio Cheesehead

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    Put me in the camp that motor doesn't seem to change as an athlete matures. Learning how to work, how to take care of yourself etc can, motivations can change. I'm probably splitting hairs, but guys that lack internal drive can go somewhere else. I don't care how much talent they have.
     
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  18. HardRightEdge

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    I don't think you're splitting hairs at all.

    Sometimes, once guys make the league, they get religion about what kind of off-field work it takes to stay there.

    Lang, by his own admission, was a late night bar hopper, sometimes showing up to practice in not the greatest of shape. In his case, he credits his wife with settling him down; maybe she had insight into what it might take to get to the second contract. Or maybe she made a point about respecting his craft.

    Or how about Lacy? He looks to have gotten religion. Bad conditioning isn't going to get you to that second contract, especially for a running back, even if you are getting 4.1 yards per carry.

    But one thing you can say about these guys: you never saw them slack off on the field.
     
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  19. Sunshinepacker

    Sunshinepacker Cheesehead

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    Many 300+ lb linemen take plays off. Keep in mind too that Jones only played three years of football in high school. This isn't a guy that's spent his whole life playing football, he's played six years. He's far from finished. Am I saying it's a certainty that he'll improve his motor in the NFL? Heck no. He could prove to be an eternal "potential" guy. But he could also turn out to be the best defensive player in this draft, which you can't say about anyone else that might be available to the Packers.

    Jarran Reed gives effort but doesn't appear as if he'll ever bring anything in the pass rush department (which is pretty important in a pass first NFL). Billings might be the safer pick but he doesn't do a very good job of keeping olinemen off him and he could just end up a guy who can't get off blocks in the NFL. Bullard has the motor but any pass rush projection on his part is based solely on his skills and not his production. There are negatives with every guy but the ceiling is far higher on Jones than most others.
     
  20. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    I wouldn't want to spend a first round pick on Chris Jones because of his lack of internal drive. But he's too talented to pass on him in the second round though.
     
  21. HardRightEdge

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    I think if you don't like a guy's motor, 2nd. round is too high.
     
  22. AmishMafia

    AmishMafia Cheesehead

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    Fans put way too much emphasis on sacks when it comes to rating a NT. What does the best NTs get in the NFL season? 6-8 sacks? That is less than 0.5 per game. Not that big of an impact over the course of the season. But a player who can repeatedly collapse the pocket and push the line of scrimmage into the QB will accomplish several things. He will take up blockers, free up ILBs, take away the QBs ability to step up into the pocket, and restrict him from stepping into his throws. In my opinion, a pocket collapsing NT will do more to shut down a passing game than a NT who sometimes sacks a QB. Now couple that with the fact that Reed is the best run stuffer coming into the NFL in some time, and he is a very easy choice for me.

    Reed is my favorite pick for the Pack. If he is there, I would take him over every other player that has a chance of being there. The man is a force and is largely responsible for the success of the Alabama defense and some of the players around him. I think Ragland can attribute a portion of his success to Reed as well as Robinson. I think Reed will have a much greater positive impact than all those other DL picks being bantered about.

    I heard the other day on the radio that Reed is playing at a pro bowl level as a run defender. Scout said he was amazed at his dominance against upper competition.

    All this being said, I doubt he is available at the Packers pick. When I originally made my mock, he was being predicted mostly to be going to Denver as the last pick in the first. Now I see him being projected in the top 15. Anyway, it is looking more like he will be long gone by the Packers pick. He would be the one player I would advocate a move up in the draft to get.l
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2016
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  23. Mondio

    Mondio Cheesehead

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    I agree with the overall premise. I don't watch enough college to know if Reed is that guy or not, but if he can do what you say at the pro level, I'd take him over all other positions in the first too.
     
  24. Patriotplayer90

    Patriotplayer90 Cheesehead

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    The latest Kiper mock draft has GB selecting Correa (please, no) in the first, with Reed, Dodd, and Billings still on the board. And Jerrell Adams is selection for GB in the second (with Billings still on the board), and a CB in the third. His projections are supposed to be based purely on who would fill the biggest needs, which leaves me scratching my head.
     
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  25. thisisnate

    thisisnate Cheesehead

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    Eew. I mean, he's the "expert" and all, but that seems like a total garbage pick in the 1st... and the 2nd for that matter... and the 3rd.
     

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