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Expectations! What are they?

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by packedhouse01, Mar 24, 2007.

  1. packedhouse01

    packedhouse01 Cheesehead

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    There are so many people who have been wondering why the Packers haven't made any signings in free agency. We know we're sitting on top of quite a bit of cap space and I think most of us expected that Ted Thompson would make some moves through free agency to help strengthen the team in addition to the draft. Although I certainly wouldn't have signed Ahman Green to the contract that Texas gave him and I didn't mind losing Martin. I am at least a little bewildered that we didn't make an attempt to sign a running back, tight end, or fullback.

    I think the real issue for most fans is what direction is Ted taking? It's obvious he isn't going to show his hand and tell us what he's going to do, but I have to admit that I'm anxious because right now it's all a guessing game. Are we going to make the trade for Moss? It's obvious we need another veteran wide receiver, so if Moss isn't in the plan, then why not go after a couple of those wide receivers that were available. The fullback situation concerns me as well. Miree is pretty average and I don't see anyone on the team who can challenge him. The same thing is true at running back. We have Morency, but there really isn't another quality running back on the team, and yet there were a number of quality backs that could have helped us. I think it's doubtful that you're going to find a starting wide receiver, tight end, full back and running back in the draft. If that is indeed the truth, how does this team get marginally better this next year?
     
  2. pyledriver80

    pyledriver80 Cheesehead

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    I am concerned based on what I have seen in the last 2 years. Honestly, I don't see anything close to a commitment to winning out of TT. I am sure you will get alot of people who will back Ted in this thread but, without trying to flame the fire, there theories are based on blind faith.

    We'll see if's, but's and pure speculation from the pro Ted crowd. Please tell me what this is based on however.

    Has Ted improved the cap space? Yes, but he has also lost alot of talent, and been mediocre during his tenure. It's not hard to improve cap space. You get rid of guys and replace them with less talented guys who will play for less. That translates into 12-20.

    Has Ted brought in some decent people? Yes, but again it's easier to bring in guys like Hawk when you go 4-12 and draft 5th overall. Not exactly amazing. Jennings and Collins have shown potential but the jury is still out. Then you have the draft Failures like Rodgers, Hawkins, Coston, etc. I don't expect Ted to get them all right but if you are going to sit on your hands during FA you better be an exceptional drafter. Ted has been average.

    Woodson and Pickett were nice additions however failures are abundant here as well. O'Dwyer, Freeman, Manual,Little, Thompson, Freeman, Boerigter, etc.

    To me Ted is below average. There is no passion, desire, or sense of urgency when it comes to becoming a contender. Ted is just fine sitting on the fence.

    I don't buy the "building a core" argument either. With FA dynasties are a thing of the past. Building teams that can win 5 straight Super Bowls just isn't reality. Teams do not rebuild they reload and every year is another opportunity to win a championship.

    I am sure many will disagree but the facts are what they are. 12-20 and numerous failures over the last 2-3 years is not a real convincing argument as to Ted's great abilities. I understand some are optimists and see the glass half full but it is what it is. If you can seperate yourself from your undying fandom you will see what others see the Packers as.....Utterly Average
     
  3. packedhouse01

    packedhouse01 Cheesehead

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    I'm wondering how many people will view this situation as you do Pyle. I happen to see some promise in our young players, but at this stage of their development it is only promise. For the Packers to get marginally better without adding any additional players in free agency means that we have to be able to count on every player from last years team to step up and improve dramatically. And remember, we lost a tight end, a running back, and we cut Henderson. I wasn't really looking for a big splash in FA, but I thought we'd make at least one or two moves that would help us to be better and then not have to address that issue in the draft. About the only thing that can salvage this is if they indeed do trade for Moss. (and I'm not at all convinced that this would be a good thing)
     
  4. OregonPackFan

    OregonPackFan Cheesehead

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    You can't call Boerigter and people like him failures, he brought in some cheap veteran to camps to see if they could compete, they didn't and were cut.

    His two most expensive FA's have been successes, Woodson and Pickett,

    all teams bring in a number of cheap veteran FA's.

    However when TT signs a top tier FA he seems to be hitting the nails.

    He has also made some good early draft selections, you gotta be able to get good players in the 1st and 2nd rounds but in the lower rounds it's a gamble and you know it pyle.
     
  5. OregonPackFan

    OregonPackFan Cheesehead

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    Pyle, when you call 4th and 5th round picks big failures you don't know what you're talking about, most 4th and 5th round picks never make it.

    TT has been very successful picking in the three first rounds of the draft.

    and as I wrote earlier, rounds lower than the second, are pretty much a gamble.

    All picks are a gamble, but if you're good you will be able to pick good players in the first two rounds most of the time.
     
  6. OregonPackFan

    OregonPackFan Cheesehead

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    Also pyle, I'm wondering, which FA's would you have wanted TT to sign?

    Griffith and Hood are the only ones I believe we could have signed to fair contracts for fair value. The FA was crazy this year because the demand for FA's were much higher than the supply, therefore teams that were desperate for players ended up overpaying players vastly.

    If TT was interested in pleasing some impatient fans, he would have gone out and overpaid to get FA's to please the fans. I'm not sure that would have made the team much better, we'd get average players for top money and we had ended up in the same dire cap situation we've just escaped.
     
  7. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    Thats is exactly what i was thinking Oregon. He brought in the guys Pyle stated, but when they didn't cut the mustard, he cut them. There are GM's that will hold onto who they bring in, rather then just admit they don't have it and cut them loose. Like you said, every team will bring in those types of players, HOPING they can make a difference. With TT, if they don't, its BYE BYE!
    Am i nervous about how it's gone so far? Yes, but i don't think its time to panic and abandon ship. He has shown that he knows how to time his picks, and make the most out of it. (EX: Woodson and Pickett) No, TT doesn't go around shouting and telling everyone what he intends to do. He quietly goes about his job, keeping his "cards" close to himself. I'd HATE to play poker against that guy, as he knows how to NOT show his intentions.
    Do i think he doesn't intend to improve the team, so that they can win? No......that would be the quickest way to the unemployment line for him.
    He's not a "rah rah" guy, thats his personality........(some would see that as a lack of personality, which might be so). But i don't care what personality the guy has, as long as he does his job well. And he only had 2 drafts so far to try to do so. Favre must see enough going on to have hope for this team, so i have hope too.
    Oh.....and no team has won 5 straight Super Bowls. But i understand what you mean Pyle. And you are right. With FA now, players jump ship for greener pastures and bigger money once they make it to the big one. So you have to try to build the team for NOW, as next year many of your guys might take off for other teams. I really think the Packers have a shot next year, if a few things go well. Pittsburgh won 2 years ago, and i really don't think they were a power house. Even Tampa Bay, and Baltimore won one.
    If TT really screws it all up, then i would give up on him. But as of now, i have yet to see any huge blunder by him.
     
  8. pyledriver80

    pyledriver80 Cheesehead

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    Thats absurd. It was a failure no matter how you cut it. These guys were more than camp bodies. Little was on the field for us for half a season. It's funny how when they fail, they were somehow just camp fodder. Thats ridiculous. Were they big time guys, no, but did they do what TT intended for them to do when he signed them, no! Thats a waste, period.

    Also how come you did not address Manual. What a disaster he has been.


    Now on to your draft points. Ted is somehow great because he selected Hawk at #5? Thats a no brainer. Having the luxury of drafting high because of a crap season makes it a little simpler.

    Furthermore, you want to say "Ted builds through the draft" and then say that he should not be held accountable for picks beyond the second round? So we can count on Ted adding 1-2 people a year to POSSIBLY improve this team?

    I'm sorry, but the logic is flawed.
     
  9. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    To me.....as long as they ARE improving, how can you complain so loudly?
    If they went 4-12, then 3-13, THEN i would say your logic is correct. But they doubled their wins. If they drop back to horrible next year, then what you are saying would have merit.
    If it really DOES come down to the Packers winning, they greatly improved.
    8-8 is a HUGE improvement over 4-12, isn't it?
     
  10. pyledriver80

    pyledriver80 Cheesehead

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    You are right every FA Ted passed on was overpaid.

    They don't give out trophies for the fairest contracts sorry.

    You want to pay people what there worth and you are going to have a team full of nobodies because other teams WILL overpay. It's the NFL today. You can either get on board or celebrate 8-8 seasons as if they were Super Bowl wins. You are not shopping for the best deal on a pair of Nikes you are doing what you can to get your team in the big one.
     
  11. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    I don't think anyone here is touting 8-8 as a super bowl win. But it WAS a big impronement over 4-12. I didn't expect a super bowl win last year. I DID expect a noticeable improvement though.
    I think they accomplished that.
    I expect even better this coming year.
     
  12. pyledriver80

    pyledriver80 Cheesehead

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    Yes 8-8 is an improvement over 4-12

    But unless my math is fuzzy

    10-6 is better than 4-12 and 8-8 both.
     
  13. OregonPackFan

    OregonPackFan Cheesehead

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    We weren't winning the superbowl this upcoming season no matter which FA's we signed, so why sign a bunch of overpaid average players and get back to cap hell and not even winning a SB?
     
  14. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    Yes, but as i stated in the other thread, there were many other changes that i believe compacted the problems. The previous GM didn't exactly fill the cubboard with great players when TT and the new coaching staff came in. There were MANY changes that made it a tough season. A new offense and defense for the guys to learn i'm sure added to the tough season.
    I think they are on the right track now, and i hope they prove me right.
    In the end, i want the Packers to win, and thats what matters. I think you want the same thing, and are just viewing it all from your own point of view. I don't think it's wrong, just different from the way i view it.
    I hope i end up being right, as it would mean the Packers keep getting better. Of course i'm not a fortune teller, so only time will tell.
     
  15. OregonPackFan

    OregonPackFan Cheesehead

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    If TT had missed on most of his early picks I would call his drafts a failure.

    However TT has been very good drafting in the early rounds,

    if you fail on your 4th and 5th round picks it isn't crucial for the franchise.

    When did 4th and 5th picks become crucial for a franchise's success?

    When did cheap veteran FA's become crucial for a franchise's success?
     
  16. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    How true...........and 7th round gems like Donald Driver are far and few inbetween. Most guys picked that late don't end up being star players like he has. We got lucky on that pick!
    I also see TT as making good early picks. Yes, Hawk was #5. But if you look back in all the drafts, it's amazing how many 1st rounders end up as busts. So it STILL takes talent and skill to hit on the early picks as i see it. No one is a REAL "sure thing".
     
  17. pyledriver80

    pyledriver80 Cheesehead

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    Great point.....for me

    "However TT has been very good drafting in the early rounds" - A. Rogers, Collins, Murphy, Hawk, Colledge, Jennings

    The only true star is Hawk. The rest, at this point, are average.



    "if you fail on your 4th and 5th round picks it isn't crucial for the franchise"

    Nope, not if your active in FA

    "When did 4th and 5th picks become crucial for a franchise's success"

    When you spew "TT is building through the draft" in every post



    "When did cheap veteran FA's become crucial for a franchise's success"

    When thats all you bring in.

    So you get a Pickett and a Woodson every 2-3 years. You get 1-3 marginal players in the draft every year. Where do the rest of the players come from if cheap FA, and late round draft picks don't matter?
     
  18. retiredgrampa

    retiredgrampa Cheesehead

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    Whenever a poster criticizes TT for not signing FAs, seemingly a whole host of fans gather to say..."TT was right, he refused to overpay." In all likelihood the poster didn't blast TT for not overspending, but rather NOT signing players that could help who signed decent contracts. Hamlin is one, Griffith was another. Both could have filled rolls on this team for nominal cost. TT just low-balled them. He did the same with Wilkerson. Face it, these guys go where the money is. Always have...always will. It's the reason they play pro ball. Now if TT makes a deal for either Turner or Moss, he'll spend a lot more for that one man than if he had signed all three of the guys mentioned above w/o guaranteeing a thing re the W-L column.
     
  19. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    No matter WHO you sign there are no "guarentees" that it will end up paying off in the W-L columns.
    Its all a crap shoot, and you HOPE that it will pay off in the end.
    IF they get Moss, it could turn out to be a huge piece to winning, or it may blow up in their faces.
    No one knows for certain which way it would pay off.
    Of course, thats what makes it exciting too.
     
  20. OregonPackFan

    OregonPackFan Cheesehead

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    You sign veteran FA's to help you the first year, you don't draft 4th and 5th rounders and expect them to help you the first year. There is no link here, and did you want TT to sign average o-linemen, or an average RB to a huge contract? I'm sure as hell glad you aren't the GM, you would be worse than Millen.

    Well, too bad for you it isn't all he brings in, and most teams don't sign a lot of big contract FA's every single offseason.

    TT is signing good players to big contracts when it's needed and they are available and needed.

    Since when did BIG Contract = Great player,

    just because some average players got big contracts this offseason doesn't mean they are great players. You would probably complain if a team signed Humphrey to a big contract overpaying him.
     
  21. pyledriver80

    pyledriver80 Cheesehead

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    Griffith's contract wasn't huge
    Hamlins was not either

    I'm not asking for Clements man, but when you have a chance to upgrade your team you do it. If you have to overpay, so be it.


    This team has no legit RB, a project FB, an underproducing S, below average recieving TE's, and could sure use some WR help. On top of that the O-line is young and far from a sure thing.

    And that's ok because we have "lots of cap space". What the hell award does that get you?
     
  22. trippster

    trippster Cheesehead

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    Pyle,

    Please humor me and tell me who you think is/was an excellent GM....say in the last 20 years.
     
  23. gopackgo

    gopackgo Cheesehead

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    Except Ron Wolf.
     
  24. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    (That was the only one i could come up with!)
    And even HE made mistakes! But his good outweighed his bad. And i'm hoping TT does the same.
     
  25. kmac

    kmac Cheesehead

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    Personally, I haven't been a fan of a lot of TT's moves (or lack thereof) but he had 1 terrible year that was an obvious rebuilding year, then improved the next year. If we don't go 8-8 or better next season, then I'll be totally ready to jump off of the TT bandwagon. At this point, I think it's too early to make a fair judgment.
     

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