Don't expect the Packers to spend their first round pick on a cornerback

[Dantés]

I think you meant "2016 guys", but yes.

I guess all we can do now is wait....and watch as McCourtney signs with another team

I meant 2015 draft guys-- Randall and Rollins.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I meant 2015 draft guys-- Randall and Rollins.

Got ya and I guess Gunter can be added to that class as well. I would hope that both Randall and Rollins can improve, but I am not counting on it, nor do I think the Packers should. Now if they were the #3 and the #4 guys, I think that is asking a lot less of them and there is a better chance of improvement. Neither of them proved ready to be a #1 or even a #2 last year, take some heat off them and let them gain some confidence as well as have some success in their development.

 

[Mondio]

why wouldn't you count on them improving? I'm not expecting them to turn into Sam Shields 2.0, but i expect them both to improve and neither needs to improve enough to be a shut down corner either. Though I expect at least one of them to surprise people some. Simply not giving up 60+ yard plays with regularity would be good enough for this team. I don't think that's an unattainable goal by any means for these 2.

They did not look the same physically last year as they did year 1. Both were injured much of the year. I don't want the excuse about the 2 healthy games each had at the beginning of the year because Rodgers didn't look good, our oline never looks good and lots of players don't look like they do later in the year, every year. I think it had as much to do with coaches figuring them out and putting them in tough positions as it was anything else. Baptism by fire early in the year. Then the injuries came.

it would be different if they looked the same physically in year 1 and year 2 and performed so horribly at times, but they didn't. At least not to me. If this staff can take undrafteds like Sam and Tramon and make them into excellent corners, I think they can with these 2 as well, just decent would be good enough to greatly improve the team. a team 1 game away from the big one. They aren't done adding people either, but I don't get the sentiment that we shouldn't count on them improving. If your'e not expecting improvement, then cut them and save the roster spots. just trade picks away every year and get proven players. Then you won't have to count on them getting better. Instead you'll have to count on them learning the scheme, performing in a new scheme, counting on them to no get complacent with a new contract, count on them for all sorts of things.

 

[PikeBadger]

why wouldn't you count on them improving? I'm not expecting them to turn into Sam Shields 2.0, but i expect them both to improve and neither needs to improve enough to be a shut down corner either. Though I expect at least one of them to surprise people some. Simply not giving up 60+ yard plays with regularity would be good enough for this team. I don't think that's an unattainable goal by any means for these 2.

They did not look the same physically last year as they did year 1. Both were injured much of the year. I don't want the excuse about the 2 healthy games each had at the beginning of the year because Rodgers didn't look good, our oline never looks good and lots of players don't look like they do later in the year, every year. I think it had as much to do with coaches figuring them out and putting them in tough positions as it was anything else. Baptism by fire early in the year. Then the injuries came.

it would be different if they looked the same physically in year 1 and year 2 and performed so horribly at times, but they didn't. At least not to me. If this staff can take undrafteds like Sam and Tramon and make them into excellent corners, I think they can with these 2 as well, just decent would be good enough to greatly improve the team. a team 1 game away from the big one. They aren't done adding people either, but I don't get the sentiment that we shouldn't count on them improving. If your'e not expecting improvement, then cut them and save the roster spots. just trade picks away every year and get proven players. Then you won't have to count on them getting better. Instead you'll have to count on them learning the scheme, performing in a new scheme, counting on them to no get complacent with a new contract, count on them for all sorts of things.

I expect one of House, Randall or Rollins to be as good a player by the end of the 18 season as Shields was in his prime. I think Gunter is far less likely. All of these guys have different traits but was referring to overall effectiveness of play.

 

[PackerDNA]

I expect one of House, Randall or Rollins to be as good a player by the end of the 18 season as Shields was in his prime. I think Gunter is far less likely. All of these guys have different traits but was referring to overall effectiveness of play.

I'll go with no to all of the above. Gunter is more than far less likely.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

why wouldn't you count on them improving? I'm not expecting them to turn into Sam Shields 2.0, but i expect them both to improve and neither needs to improve enough to be a shut down corner either. Though I expect at least one of them to surprise people some. Simply not giving up 60+ yard plays with regularity would be good enough for this team. I don't think that's an unattainable goal by any means for these 2.

They did not look the same physically last year as they did year 1. Both were injured much of the year. I don't want the excuse about the 2 healthy games each had at the beginning of the year because Rodgers didn't look good, our oline never looks good and lots of players don't look like they do later in the year, every year. I think it had as much to do with coaches figuring them out and putting them in tough positions as it was anything else. Baptism by fire early in the year. Then the injuries came.

it would be different if they looked the same physically in year 1 and year 2 and performed so horribly at times, but they didn't. At least not to me. If this staff can take undrafteds like Sam and Tramon and make them into excellent corners, I think they can with these 2 as well, just decent would be good enough to greatly improve the team. a team 1 game away from the big one. They aren't done adding people either, but I don't get the sentiment that we shouldn't count on them improving. If your'e not expecting improvement, then cut them and save the roster spots. just trade picks away every year and get proven players. Then you won't have to count on them getting better. Instead you'll have to count on them learning the scheme, performing in a new scheme, counting on them to no get complacent with a new contract, count on them for all sorts of things.

Sounds a lot like the same approach TT took at the ILB and TE positions for a few years.

Saying "If this staff can take undrafteds like Sam and Tramon and make them into excellent corners, I think they can with these 2 as well" is stretching your expectations/optimism a bit, isn't it? If you think that every player the Packers touch goes from water to wine, then why discuss the success or failures of draft and develop? You are forgetting about the ones that didn't work out. I for one haven't given up on Randall or Rollins and do expect/hope for improvement, but it is really hard for me to forget how inept both of them looked at times, healthy or unhealthy during the 2016 season.

Saying the Packers should cut ties with a player the moment they stop showing improvement is kind of silly, I haven't seen many people talking about cutting either player, but relying on them playing key roles has a lot of us rightfully nervous. Probably the same way people felt with Richard Rodgers or Andrew Quarles as the Packers starting TE's or the rotation of garbage we saw at ILB.

 

[Mondio]

Sounds a lot like the same approach TT took for the QB position, LT, RT, Guard, Center, WR, Safety etc.

Rodgers is an Ok TE, we won a super bowl without Finely. It's not like this team was short on offensive weapons during that time except for the year Lacy got fat, Jordy got hurt, Cobb was hurt, Adams was hurt and our oline was in constant flux. But hey, what do I know. I realize when you lose a stud TE you drafted and developed it hurts some, but let's not act like it hamstrung this team, not even a little bit. If you want to point to Cook last year as reason for one, I'll point to 2010 with guys like Quarless and some other nothings.

 

[Zartan]

I would wait till maybe 2nd round for a Cornerback or later there are other needed holes to be filled. Still need a good pass rusher opposite of Mathews. I just wish Mathews would be more productive to make any pick we get have more impact.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Sounds a lot like the same approach TT took for the QB position, LT, RT, Guard, Center, WR, Safety etc.

Rodgers is an Ok TE, we won a super bowl without Finely. It's not like this team was short on offensive weapons during that time except for the year Lacy got fat, Jordy got hurt, Cobb was hurt, Adams was hurt and our oline was in constant flux. But hey, what do I know. I realize when you lose a stud TE you drafted and developed it hurts some, but let's not act like it hamstrung this team, not even a little bit. If you want to point to Cook last year as reason for one, I'll point to 2010 with guys like Quarless and some other nothings.

Not sure how you can say this was the same approach at QB? Rodgers wasn't thrust into being a starter until he was ready, year #4. Same with WR....what current Wide Receiver thrived as a starter his second year, Cobb comes the closest? I could go through each position, but it doesn't really matter, just because it worked for one position, one player, doesn't mean it works everytime and TT needs to recognize that. I merely point out ILB and TE because they were positions of weakness for too many years, without being properly addressed and my hope is the same doesn't happen at the CB position.

Measuring the success at the TE position in 2010 with a Superbowl win as your measuring stick? Not sure how that equates to the TE position being good. Quarles, Lee and Crabtree (combined) accounted for 371 yards and 4 TDS. By those standards, I guess in 2010, we were fine at all 22 starting positions?

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I would wait till maybe 2nd round for a Cornerback or later there are other needed holes to be filled. Still need a good pass rusher opposite of Mathews. I just wish Mathews would be more productive to make any pick we get have more impact.

Well we do have Perry opposite Clay, but they still need someone to take up the slack, as well as for the future.

 

[Mondio]

They expect those players to progress year to year. The same for the qb to the DBs and everyone in between. They're going to be in year 3. Yes, I expect them to be better. I brought up the TEs because though a great one is nice, it obviously isn't essential. We had offensive options, plenty of them. And yet you and that other guy keep harping how Ted ignores this team.

But I get it, until the very best player at every position in the league is in this roster, There will always be reason to complain about Ted.

 

[PackerDNA]

But I get it, until the very best player at every position in the league is in this roster, There will always be reason to complain about Ted.

Aaaaand....there's the other strawman. We get it, Mondio. Ted is wonderful, and anything wrong with this roster isn't his fault.
Even though he's the guy who put it together.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Well yes, the draft and develop principle IS founded on just that and it has worked for the most part. I don't expect Pro Bowlers at every position, but when you lose someone like Shields or Finley and the guys behind them are showing signs of not being ready to step up, than you take the necessary steps to improve the position. The "next man up" solution doesn't work in every case, especially when you have a team as young as the Packers.

 

[Mondio]

Aaaaand....there's the other strawman. We get it, Mondio. Ted is wonderful, and anything wrong with this roster isn't his fault.
Even though he's the guy who put it together.

whatever man.

We're talking about expecting a 3rd year player to improve or the statement that you can't rely on a player to improve. care to join us? He may have gotten 2 high round picks wrong, completely wrong. I have not declared them a raging success. Merely pointing out that from top to bottom, this team is built and has sustained success by counting on players progressing from year to year. you disagree? give us examples.

Losing Shields hurts, I know and you can't just replace him. If that's your expectation, then I'm done with this entire thing, because you're very unrealistic. as for the TE's, yes it took some time to replace Finely, but again, it's not as if this team did not have plenty of offensive weapons. In fact we won a super bowl with just names at the position. That fact he didn't panic and just go sign someone to replace him does not even matter to me for 2 reasons. the main being we had plenty of weapons for an offense, any offense to be successful and #2, there weren't exactly a ton of TE's that were available, had a manageable cap number AND had the production and even if there was 1 or 2, we still had plenty of offensive firepower so blaming any shortfalls on not having some bit TE gets right back to my "strawman" statement. Because if you're blaming a non superbowl winning season on the fact Finely wasn't replaced right away, that's pretty much your position without actually saying it.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

This is just from memory, but the way the Packers won the SuperBowl in 2010 was by being outstanding in a few areas and solid enough in the rest, no glaring weaknesses. If I recall correctly, not having major injuries at any one position helped as well. So yes, you are right, in 2010 the TE position was adequate enough to accomplish this (Finley was on that team for 5 games btw). But what happens, when you lose a WR or two, like in 2015? If you don't have a solid TE, it compounds things. What has hurt the Packers since (IMO) is having a position or two of weakness, that ultimately exposed the defense or didn't give the offense enough fire power, this has either been with starters or lack of depth. I don't expect the roster to be 3-5 deep at every position, but I would like to see a little less dependence on rookies, UDFA's and guys who have had their stay in Green Bay extended a little bit too long, simply because TT and the Packers are still waiting for them to develop.

I know you keep bringing up "replacing Shields" is an unreasonable expectation. While you are probably right about mid season, what was wrong with trying to replace him in the off season when you have access to top CB's via Free Agency. If we lose Aaron Rodgers do we just say "well....Hundley is our man and we are sticking to him, no matter what"?

 

[PackerDNA]

whatever man.

We're talking about expecting a 3rd year player to improve or the statement that you can't rely on a player to improve. care to join us? He may have gotten 2 high round picks wrong, completely wrong. I have not declared them a raging success. Merely pointing out that from top to bottom, this team is built and has sustained success by counting on players progressing from year to year. you disagree? give us examples.

Losing Shields hurts, I know and you can't just replace him. If that's your expectation, then I'm done with this entire thing, because you're very unrealistic. as for the TE's, yes it took some time to replace Finely, but again, it's not as if this team did not have plenty of offensive weapons. In fact we won a super bowl with just names at the position. That fact he didn't panic and just go sign someone to replace him does not even matter to me for 2 reasons. the main being we had plenty of weapons for an offense, any offense to be successful and #2, there weren't exactly a ton of TE's that were available, had a manageable cap number AND had the production and even if there was 1 or 2, we still had plenty of offensive firepower so blaming any shortfalls on not having some bit TE gets right back to my "strawman" statement. Because if you're blaming a non superbowl winning season on the fact Finely wasn't replaced right away, that's pretty much your position without actually saying it.

That's better....outside of the last sentence. You can hope/expect improvement from 2nd/3rd year players; depends on the players. Randall and Rollins were so bad they could improve and still be a s**tshow.

 

[Mondio]

they didn't just lose a WR in 2015. They had a 270lb RB and the offensive line was in constant change and a couple guys ended up with surgery as soon as the season ended. You also had jordy gone, Cobb with ankle and shoulder injuries and Davante on 1 leg all year pretty much. The changes in the physicality of him alone was so evident from year 1 to year 2 and then year 3. It was so much more than not having a TE. and yes, having a great TE would have helped, but then if you're expecting a team to be stacked at every single position, it's not very realistic.

as for the top CB's, I was kind of hoping to see a Gilmore signing, but he didn't. Beyond that, there weren't too may I was excited about, and since I never watch the Bills, he was just a name and some good stuff I heard about. the rest we'll see. After going all last year about Trevathan and Ladarius and how stupid Ted was, I'm not buying anybody's assesments on anything any more We'll see is about all i'm going to do.

 

[Mondio]

That's better....outside of the last sentence. You can hope/expect improvement from 2nd/3rd year players; depends on the players. Randall and Rollins were so bad they could improve and still be a s**tshow.

that last sentence was pure freaking genius, you better recognize

 

[PackerDNA]

[QUOTE="Pokerbrat2000, post: 719273, member: 7261" I don't expect the roster to be 3-5 deep at every position, but I would like to see a little less dependence on rookies, UDFA's and guys who have had their stay in Green Bay extended a little bit too long, simply because TT and the Packers are still waiting for them to develop.

I know you keep bringing up "replacing Shields" is an unreasonable expectation. While you are probably right about mid season, what was wrong with trying to replace him in the off season when you have access to top CB's via Free Agency. If we lose Aaron Rodgers do we just say "well....Hundley is our man and we are sticking to him, no matter what"?[/QUOTE]


This, Mondio. PB2000, you're rolling today, brother. I think I'll just save myself the grief of typing today and leave it up to you.

 

[Dantés]

That's better....outside of the last sentence. You can hope/expect improvement from 2nd/3rd year players; depends on the players. Randall and Rollins were so bad they could improve and still be a s**tshow.

They were both solid rookies. Then they were both hurt. It seems like some people are ready to bury them after injury marred 2nd seasons.

 

[PackerDNA]

Funny thing about Finley and 2010. I remember there being some concern in those first 5 games that Rodgers was relying on him too heavily.

 

[PikeBadger]

This is just from memory, but the way the Packers won the SuperBowl in 2010 was by being outstanding in a few areas and solid enough in the rest, no glaring weaknesses. If I recall correctly, not having major injuries at any one position helped as well. So yes, you are right, in 2010 the TE position was adequate enough to accomplish this (Finley was on that team for 5 games btw). But what happens, when you lose a WR or two, like in 2015? If you don't have a solid TE, it compounds things. What has hurt the Packers since (IMO) is having a position or two of weakness, that ultimately exposed the defense or didn't give the offense enough fire power, this has either been with starters or lack of depth. I don't expect the roster to be 3-5 deep at every position, but I would like to see a little less dependence on rookies, UDFA's and guys who have had their stay in Green Bay extended a little bit too long, simply because TT and the Packers are still waiting for them to develop.

I know you keep bringing up "replacing Shields" is an unreasonable expectation. While you are probably right about mid season, what was wrong with trying to replace him in the off season when you have access to top CB's via Free Agency. If we lose Aaron Rodgers do we just say "well....Hundley is our man and we are sticking to him, no matter what"?

I'm not convinced every top free agent CB wants to come to Green Bay.
I didn't realize Gilmore's PFF rating was below McCourty's last season. How many "top" FA CB's were available in March? Who is defining top and how are they making that determination? What was Davon House's 2015 PFF rating? Why did he have a better 15 than 16 season? Just a few questions to ponder.

 

[PackerDNA]

They were both solid rookies. Then they were both hurt. It seems like some people are ready to bury them after injury marred 2nd seasons.

They weren't so good when healthy, either. And there was a lot of horrendous things about his techniques that had nothing to do with injury. There are flaws with Randall (not the least being he doesn't seem to like tackling). Didn't save it- wish I did- an article a week or two back in which a couple of scouts pointed out several flaws with him. Neither thought he'd amount to a very good CB.
But like many here are saying, we'll all find out soon enough.

 

[PackerDNA]

I'm not convinced every top free agent CB wants to come to Green Bay.
I didn't realize Gilmore's PFF rating was below McCourty's last season. How many "top" FA CB's were available in March? Who is defining top and how are they making that determination? What was Davon House's 2015 PFF rating? Why did he have a better 15 than 16 season? Just a few questions to ponder.

Not everybody wants to go everywhere.
(Any confusion there, and I'll claim I was possessed by the spirit of Yogi Berra. )

 

[Mondio]

They weren't so good when healthy, either. And there was a lot of horrendous things about his techniques that had nothing to do with injury. There are flaws with Randall (not the least being he doesn't seem to like tackling). Didn't save it- wish I did- an article a week or two back in which a couple of scouts pointed out several flaws with him. Neither thought he'd amount to a very good CB.
But like many here are saying, we'll all find out soon enough.

he wasn't always afraid to tackle. Maybe he was just hurt.
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-...910/Packers-Damarious-Randall-makes-nice-stop