Do we have the pieces to go to a 4-3?

mradtke66

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The idea that a 4-3 is a better run defense is false. 3-4s are normally better against the run. 3-4 linemen are larger and on running plays, it becomes a de facto 5-2 defense.

When did we get gashed the worst yesterday? When we were in nickel with only 6 in the box. The Lions "force" that defense by coming out in passing situations.

Even if we were a 4-3 team, we'd probably line up with exactly the same personnel in exactly the same spots with our current roster--2 of Perry, Neal, Matthews, or Mulumba at the outside rush positions, Daniels and Datone at tackle, Hawk and Jones in linebacker.

What did your switch to the 4-3 actually accomplish? Probably nothing. People who advocate wholesale changes like this strike me as people just lashing out at whatever they don't understand.
 

rodell330

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The idea that a 4-3 is a better run defense is false. 3-4s are normally better against the run. 3-4 linemen are larger and on running plays, it becomes a de facto 5-2 defense.

When did we get gashed the worst yesterday? When we were in nickel with only 6 in the box. The Lions "force" that defense by coming out in passing situations.

Even if we were a 4-3 team, we'd probably line up with exactly the same personnel in exactly the same spots with our current roster--2 of Perry, Neal, Matthews, or Mulumba at the outside rush positions, Daniels and Datone at tackle, Hawk and Jones in linebacker.

What did your switch to the 4-3 actually accomplish? Probably nothing. People who advocate wholesale changes like this strike me as people just lashing out at whatever they don't understand.

Heres one thing we understand..the defense sucks.
 

Zartan

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How will our DL look next season?
Pickett, Raji, Jolly, Neal and Wilson are all free agents after the season.

Out of all of them Jolly is easist to re sign. I think once Jolly has full off season to prepare he can be dangerous. Jolly will be back on the cheap,Raji not nearly worth 8 Million. Pickett,Neal,Wilson are easy to part with.
 

mradtke66

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Heres one thing we understand..the defense sucks.

I get that you're frustrated--you probably wouldn't be a fan if you weren't. I am too. Advocating the switch to a 4-3 strikes me as ignorant. For example, Matthews as a 4-3 OLB. Yes, he'd do well there. However, he'd probably only get 3 to 4 blitz chances per game (assuming he doesn't put his hand in the dirt in nickel.) He would not longer be in a position to make game changing plays because 4-3 OLB isn't a playmaking position. He'd be in coverage about 70-80% of the snaps. If anything, were I facing the these packers playing a 4-3, I'd stay in base offense to keep Matthews at OLB. Boom, I just neutralized your best player. Then I'd throw at him. Boom, I just embarrassed your best player.

Things need to get fixed, yup. It'll probably be Capers. What strikes me as the most likely would be to promote Mike Trgovac to DC--he was a DC in Carolina(?) before he was our line coach. He came to us, in part, so he could learn the 3-4 better. Promote him, rotate Greene to D-line, and maybe some of the crazy he brings rubs off on the big guys.
 

ivo610

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Comparing him to Mario Williams is just lazy.

If you want to switch to the 4-3 you might as well trade our best defensive player bc he's going to be much less effective in coverage for the majority of games
 

ivo610

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Seriously? Hope you are kidding but doubt you are.

Bills use mario as a D end in buffalo and situational linebacker.

I'm sure you're going to say let's use clay as a DE. So I'll just tell you now that's going to be a terrible idea. Clay isn't going to put his hand in the dirt. On top of that CLAY IS 4 INCHES SHORTER AND 40 POUNDS LIGHTER THAN MARIO!
 

rodell330

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Seriously? Hope you are kidding but doubt you are.

Bills use mario as a D end in buffalo and situational linebacker.

I'm sure you're going to say let's use clay as a DE. So I'll just tell you now that's going to be a terrible idea. Clay isn't going to put his hand in the dirt. On top of that CLAY IS 4 INCHES SHORTER AND 40 POUNDS LIGHTER THAN MARIO!


I'm not saying have Matthews put his hand in the dirt but Ok fine i'll bite. I'll use Cameron Wake as an example (since Mario is to "big") he to made the switch to a 4-3 player from a 3-4. He to is used as a situational linebacker just like Mario...oh and he's 6'3 260 and Clay is 6'3 255. I'm done now if you are. Good talk
 

ivo610

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I'm not saying have Matthews put his hand in the dirt but Ok fine i'll bite. I'll use Cameron Wake as an example (since Mario is to "big") he to made the switch to a 4-3 player from a 3-4. He to is used as a situational linebacker just like Mario...oh and he's 6'3 260 and Clay is 6'3 255. I'm done now if you are. Good talk

You're aren't saying hand in dirt but you use Cameron wake a DE as an example? Wow
 

NelsonsLongCatch

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Ok what about the Browns..they made the switch last year and now they are the #3 defense....and Williams? money and injuries forced him out of town not his play. He had 10.5 sacks last season and has 11 this year all while wait for it...playing in the 4-3. Hmm??

That's what I'm saying too. Williams is and always was a 4-3 defensive end. Making him a 3-4 OLB (just like making Matthews a 4-3 DE) was the wrong move by Houston. You don't play your premier pass rusher out of position.
 

rodell330

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You're aren't saying hand in dirt but you use Cameron wake a DE as an example? Wow

So you are saying Matthews would have to put his hand in the dirt if he played a little d-end. You've never seen those d-ends that stand up on the edge of the line in passing situations? if not then we don't have much more to discuss with this topic.
 

ivo610

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So you are saying Matthews would have to put his hand in the dirt if he played a little d-end. You've never seen those d-ends that stand up on the edge of the line in passing situations? if not then we don't have much more to discuss with this topic.

I'm sure he would win the leverage every time if he stood up as a DE.

Tell me more about how your plan to go 4-3 will make our best defensive player better
 

NelsonsLongCatch

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So you are saying Matthews would have to put his hand in the dirt if he played a little d-end. You've never seen those d-ends that stand up on the edge of the line in passing situations? if not then we don't have much more to discuss with this topic.

So the Packers should take their best defensive player and turn him into a situation pass rusher?

The reason Matthews lasted until the late first round (and considered to be a reach by every draft expert) is because he was a "tweener". Too small to play defensive end in a 4-3 and too big to player outside linebacker in a 4-3. He's a 3-4 outside linebacker. He's one of the two or three best 3- OLB's in the league.
 

longtimefan

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I don't think a change in scheme is going to help our tackling or our secondary from getting burned. I have no desire to limit the effectiveness of our best defensive player.

Wssp 1250 just talked about this

Gary Ellerson said the guys arent wrapping up..so Dom must be putting them in the right spot to make a play

Leroy Butler was agreeing with him I believe..

Not my words so dont say I am wrong...Call WSSP and tell them they are wrong
 
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rodell330

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I love clay matthews but its not about him. Im confident in his abilities in whatever defense hes in. The OVerall team defense needs a change. Sometimes you gotta make a sacrafice for the bettering of the UNIT.
 
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adambr2

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This thread is ridiculous. You don't alter your defense to accommodate average players. The only All-Pro player on defense, Clay Matthews, is a 3-4 OLB. Matthews is at his best when rushing the passer from different formations. Making Matthews a 4-3 OLB makes the defense's best player irrelevant.

Switching to a 4-3 won't make the team tackle better. Switching to a 4-3 defense won't make Tramon Williams cover better. Switching to a 4-3 defense won't make MD Jennings or Jerod McMillian better at safety.

Before demanding an entire system change, please remember who the Packers best defensive player is. HOW IS THE SWITCH WORKING FOR DALLAS? Cowboys switched to a 4-3 defense

Funny, because I believe I recall the Packers' best 4-3 player, Aaron Kampman, being recast in the 3-4 in 2009. So was it a mistake to change then?

Also, Dallas has absolutely nothing to do with Green Bay. Nothing.
 

TJV

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Check the top 5 and the top 10 defenses this season and over the past couple of seasons: The 3-4 scheme is well represented. The Packers D stinks but there's nothing wrong with the scheme. IMO fresh blood is needed at the DC spot but that doesn't necessarily mean a change in schemes.
 

NelsonsLongCatch

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Funny, because I believe I recall the Packers' best 4-3 player, Aaron Kampman, being recast in the 3-4 in 2009. So was it a mistake to change then?

Also, Dallas has absolutely nothing to do with Green Bay. Nothing.

Aaron Kampman in his best season was no Clay Matthews. Also, if I'm not mistaken Kampman was coming off of an ACL tear which placed him on IR. You don't base your defense off of a 30 year-old injured Aaron Kampman. Kampman lasted one more year in the league, with Jacksonville, most of which he didn't play because of injuries.

Good try though!
 

NelsonsLongCatch

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Check the top 5 and the top 10 defenses this season and over the past couple of seasons: The 3-4 scheme is well represented. The Packers D stinks but there's nothing wrong with the scheme. IMO fresh blood is needed at the DC spot but that doesn't necessarily mean a change in schemes.

You and your damn facts! Are you trying to say that since 2000 eight 3-4 teams (Baltimore twice, New England three times, Green Bay once and Pittsburgh twice) have won the Super Bowl?
 

mradtke66

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If the various analysts think that the problem is with execution, might everyone that is calling for Capers' head be missing the mark? Might the problem actually be with the assistant coaches? They're the people who are teaching technique, leverage, and all the details to the players.

Greene's boys seem fine at OLB. He also worked magic (imho) getting Championship play out of Walden and Company in 2010.

Is it Winston Moss with the ILBs? Maybe. Trgovac with the linemen? Maybe. Perry's safeties? Maybe. Whit's cornerbacks? Maybe.

I'm not saying it's not Capers, nor am I saying that it's one of the above's. Merely that it could be and maybe we've been yelling at the wrong guy the whole time.
 

Zartan

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I think best course of action is to fire entire defensive staff besides Kevin Greene and bring in a whole new crew. Seems to be the Players lost fath into the current scheme or the coaches suck at their jobs. Or a combo of both.
 
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adambr2

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Aaron Kampman in his best season was no Clay Matthews. Also, if I'm not mistaken Kampman was coming off of an ACL tear which placed him on IR. You don't base your defense off of a 30 year-old injured Aaron Kampman. Kampman lasted one more year in the league, with Jacksonville, most of which he didn't play because of injuries.

Good try though!

If you're going to refute, please make sure your statistics are accurate.

First of all, Kampman was just 2 years older than Clay is now when they made the switch.

In his 5 year career, Matthews has 48.5 sacks. In the 5 years prior to the switch, Kampman had 48 sacks. So to say he was not Clay Matthews in his best year is just wrong. Kampman had 15.5 sacks in his best year. He was a pass rushing machine. You're just downplaying him by talking about what happened after he left Green Bay.

I am not saying that we need to switch to a 4-3. I am saying that they should keep an open mind about how to fix this defense and consider all options and how to best utilize their personnel. Just like they did after 2008. What they're doing now clearly isn't working.

Catering your scheme to your best player isn't effective if nobody else can successfully execute the system. I do not care about having one superstar on a terrible defense. I care about putting 11 players in the best possible position to stop opposing offenses.
 

Carl

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Clay Matthews is one of the best pass rushers in the league. I do not think at all that we should switch to a scheme in which he doesn't consistently rush the passer. He's too small for a 4-3 end.

Yes, I'm basing this on one player, but when that one player is as good as Clay Matthews, that's valid. It would be like switching to an offense that doesn't make the most out of Rodgers.
 

Carl

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We stunk on offence, defence, and special teams. We have a running back coaching receivers, an o-line coach who was one of the worst lineman ever, and a D-coordinator who sits up in the booth with a blank look on his face and a head coach calling plays that don't fool anyone. Even Rodgers cant fix that.

The o-line has played well all season up until that last game. Fans tend to forget things like that and only base things on the previous game.

The play action pass was sure fooling teams before Rodgers when down.
 

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