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Do we finally take a look at our Trainers/Med Staff after this season?

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by Southpaw, Oct 17, 2013.

  1. 7thFloorRA

    7thFloorRA Cheesehead

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    I like to direct my bitterness towards guys never returning at the Pepper and the docs but the more I think about it I believe it is the organizational policy to return players to 100 percent that is the issue. Other teams will shoot guys up with toradol and cortisone and let them go at less than 100 percent. That makes them less effective and has huge potential for later in life issues. Pepper has been around the Pack since the Brett era and guys in the Ron Wolf regime would come back early and play through stuff. Brett played through all kinds of stuff they would never let him play through now and Pepper was the ATC.

    The guy I have a beef with is Lovat. The hamstring epidemic is in my professional opinon (as I am a certified strength and conditioning specialist) a direct result of his program. When you get a greater than 3-1 ratio of quad strength to hamstring strength you put your hamstrings at risk for injury . You also put your ACL at risk too with that ratio. Something he is doing is building the quad at a higher rate than it is building the hamstring. It could be as simple as him deciding to back off of doing traditional back squatting and doing more front squatting. I have heard Clay say he does not squat heavy because he thinks is bad for his back....no one has a worse hamstring problem than Clay. He needs to strengthen the hamstring through the ENTIRE range of motion and back off some of the quad dominant exercises..........Actually the next strength coach does because Lovat has screwed this up already.
     
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  2. Southpaw

    Southpaw Endorphin Junkie

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    Hamstring injuries are probably the most common of muscle related injuries in the NFL and probably sports in general.

    Clay not squatting because he thinks it's bad for his back is actually quite laughable. And I think that type of ignorance is why so many strength coaches and "gurus" can simply tell and athlete to do this or that, and they won't think twice about doing it because they don't know any better.

    I've been squatting since I started lifting about 8 years ago and the only times my back has ever given me issues is when I've maxed out or done too much volume. If anything Squatting has strengthened my lower back. And a lack of proper hamstring work can actually lead to more lower back injuries.

    I don't get how you can neglect hamstrings when you are talking about athletes who spending most of their time sprinting and running.

    There's also a probability that they aren't just not working the hamstring enough, but they aren't working them properly. I've seen too many knee flexion movements
     
  3. Zartan

    Zartan Cheesehead

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    At what point does bad luck no longer is an issue. At what point does the blame shift to the incompetent training staff.

    Having 1 injury filled season can be attributed to bad luck. But having 4 straight injury filled seasons something is clearly wrong with how the players are trained and conditioned.
     
  4. 7thFloorRA

    7thFloorRA Cheesehead

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    I want to say I saw this info about clay in a youtube video he cut with Jay Glazer about how he is doing his mma style off season workout. I like to season a workout with that kind of stuff but the meat and potatoes of the workout should remain the same. I wonder what the injury stats are on guys that work out with Glazer. I know Urlacher did and his lower body was a wreck at the end of his career.
     
  5. El Guapo

    El Guapo Cheesehead

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    So do you have proof that Lovat is concentrating on the front of the leg and not the back, or is this just professional speculation? I ask because it's sort of a serious statement to allege.

    When I was in high school, there were a ton of guys with chicken legs and tops like Lou Ferrigno. There was no convincing them that they looked ridiculous. There was also little convincing them that the symmetry needed in the body was important. You need to work your back as hard as you work your pectorals, or else you get back problems, same as the legs.

    Most of the weight lifting that pro athletes do is during the offseason when they aren't necessarily under the watchful eye and guidance of the training staff. The in-season lifting is more for maintenance. My point is that it's tough to manage a bunch of 20-25 year old guys who think that they have it all figured out. Doing leg curls and straight-legged deadlifts isn't as cool looking as leg presses at that age
     
  6. JBlood

    JBlood Cheesehead

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    No argument here on the need for diligence. I have no idea whether MRI is a routine when evaluating a player. I would assume it is if he had a history of prior knee injury, but doubt that MRI of all players' knees is a routine. You'd have to do routine MRIs of shoulders, elbows, backs, hips, ankles, etc. if that were the case, wouldn't you?

    He had been injured in training camp after a knee injury, and if an ACL tear was missed at that time, the Packers' staff would be responsible. However, missing an acute ACL tear would be very difficult if the player had been examined, with or without an MRI. So I assume his training camp injury was unassociated with any significant physical exam abnormality, making an MRI unnecessary. Afterwards, maybe he was having problems, but didn't report them to the training staff, in which case you can't fault the staff for missing something that isn't being reported. If he was reporting continued problems, I would think an MRI would have been done, even if there were no significant abnormalities on exam. We don't know whether or not he had an MRI with the Packers. He practiced the day before signing with the Browns, and apparently had no complaints or problems that required an exam. As far as I know, Johnson was not examined by the Browns' medical staff before signing a contract, which I guess is standard when a player is added to an active roster. So what happened in the interval between his last practice and being examined by the Browns might be something to look into. Also, the MRI with the Browns would likely give some indication as to whether the ACL was recently torn, or was months old. In any event, McCarthy is right that there's lot that appears to be unknown. I won't criticize our staff without knowing the whole story.
     
  7. JBlood

    JBlood Cheesehead

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    Interesting comment. How do you know that players have that ratio of quad:hamstring strength? I'm just asking--not trying to be confrontational. I have read that the normal ratio is 2:1 so I can see where 3:1 could be a problem.
     
  8. Southpaw

    Southpaw Endorphin Junkie

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    Ah. I've seen that video. I believe he said that doing the MMA workouts was different than Squatting 500lbs in terms of what's being worked. Maybe he still does Squat maybe he just likes to switch his training up. With how durable his family has been in football, I think it's just a little unusual that he's been injured as much as he has been.


    I think when it comes to Squatting and compound Leg Movements in general, people tend to be quad dominant.
    The Quads will always be stronger than the hamstrings, regardless of your fitness level. Because of that the Quads will overcompensate for the lack of strength in your hamstrings and glutes and when that happens you end up with imbalances. That could also be attributed to athletes not going deep enough when they Squat, which is all too common among athletes and your average gym goer. If you aren't breaking parallel when you Squat the Hamstrings and Glutes aren't going to get worked very well. Because all the stress is going to stay on your Quads.

    As it's been said, If our trainers in fact are having the players do more Front Squatting that can also be contributed to the epidemic. Whereas Back Squatting is more Glutes, Hams and Hips. Front Squatting is pretty much all Quads and core.

    If you look at pretty much every Olympic Weightlifter you can see the Quad to Hamstring Ratio is way out of balance.
     
  9. 7thFloorRA

    7thFloorRA Cheesehead

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    I am just speculating. If I had any knowledge of his actual program I would never speak about it. I don't think he is purposely trying to get that ratio but it is somehow a byproduct of the program. Everybody loves all of the retro stuff these days....ropes, med balls, kettlebells. I like them too but when you do full body exercises with them pay attention to where that weight is on the body. It is all forward and I have a theory that it is producing similar effects to front squatting.
     
  10. 7thFloorRA

    7thFloorRA Cheesehead

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    Just trying to reasonably deduce a possible explanation for the rash of hamstring injuries. You usually don't even test the guys maximal strength per muscle so if you are achieving that ratio you may not realize it until its too late. All of the other possible reasons seem way to easy to fix for it to have been this deep of a problem.
     

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