Devin White

sschind

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Oh please. If screaming and yelling was all it took to be a leader, then Jameis Winston and Burfict would be at the top of the list. Quite frankly, you're dead wrong about LVE. He is a rare athlete. He's 250+ pounds and running routes with Alvin Kamara...but he's topped out and not a great leader because he doesn't scream and yell in the huddle. That's bogus fan ********.

We aren't in the meeting rooms. We aren't in the huddle. We don't know **** about who's actually a great leader and who isn't until teammates and coaches tell us.

And it appears even then we are not really sure ;)
 

AmishMafia

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Oh please. If screaming and yelling was all it took to be a leader, then Jameis Winston and Burfict would be at the top of the list. Quite frankly, you're dead wrong about LVE. He is a rare athlete. He's 250+ pounds and running routes with Alvin Kamara...but he's topped out and not a great leader because he doesn't scream and yell in the huddle. That's bogus fan ********.

We aren't in the meeting rooms. We aren't in the huddle. We don't know **** about who's actually a great leader and who isn't until teammates and coaches tell us.
Yes. It's all about screaming and yelling.
I'm not understanding what about LVE's athletic profile and terrific rookie season would lead one to say, "he is what he is."

If that's just your gut feeling then ok. I'm just wondering if there is something he's missing.
Yes, just my gut feeling. Tough to quantify and describe something as abstract as charisma and leadership.

AJ hawk was a very impressive athlete as well. Just didnt have the aggressive killer instincts and leadership value. He was highly regarded by teammates and very dedicated. He never became what he was capable of.
 

GleefulGary

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Yes. It's all about screaming and yelling.
Yes, just my gut feeling. Tough to quantify and describe something as abstract as charisma and leadership.

AJ hawk was a very impressive athlete as well. Just didnt have the aggressive killer instincts and leadership value. He was highly regarded by teammates and very dedicated. He never became what he was capable of.

But we've already seen LVE be very good in the NFL. Everybody knows I don't take PFF as the gospel, but it does help us evaluate a lot. According to PFF, LVE was the 4th best ILB in the NFL, as a rookie. I mean, even if that is his ceiling, and given his rare athletic traits and rare starting point it seems incredibly unlikely, that's still a very good player!

You can't just say Hawk was a good athlete and didn't turn out, so that means that LVE might not improve. We've already seen LVE have a better year then Hawk ever did! I mean, the guy is 6'5 255 and he's running routes for Alvin Kamara. Do you understand how freakish that is? He came in for Sean Lee, one of the smartest players in the league, and pretty much kept him on the bench. He's 22 and 4-5 years ago he was playing 8 man football! Limited ceiling?!

And fwiw, the reason Hawk wasn't good wasn't because of his leadership skills. Leadership skills do not make you a better player as far as on the field play. They can make your team better certainly, but being a better leader wasn't going to allow Hawk to get more tackles or be in better position.
 

GleefulGary

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I just...I don't get it. Roquan Smith (who I like a lot) doesn't have the size profile, the same athletic profile, the same on field play as LVE, held out as a rookie...but has a higher ceiling because of leadership qualities?

Bah.
 

AmishMafia

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But we've already seen LVE be very good in the NFL. Everybody knows I don't take PFF as the gospel, but it does help us evaluate a lot. According to PFF, LVE was the 4th best ILB in the NFL, as a rookie. I mean, even if that is his ceiling, and given his rare athletic traits and rare starting point it seems incredibly unlikely, that's still a very good player!

You can't just say Hawk was a good athlete and didn't turn out, so that means that LVE might not improve. We've already seen LVE have a better year then Hawk ever did! I mean, the guy is 6'5 255 and he's running routes for Alvin Kamara. Do you understand how freakish that is? He came in for Sean Lee, one of the smartest players in the league, and pretty much kept him on the bench. He's 22 and 4-5 years ago he was playing 8 man football! Limited ceiling?!

And fwiw, the reason Hawk wasn't good wasn't because of his leadership skills. Leadership skills do not make you a better player as far as on the field play. They can make your team better certainly, but being a better leader wasn't going to allow Hawk to get more tackles or be in better position.
This is all in reference to my desire to draft white partly because of his leadership abilities.

I didnt say Hawks failures are because of his lack of leadership.

Admittedly, I didnt watch any Cowboy games and my opinion is based on draft research. Maybe you will prove correct. Only time will tell.
 
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I still go back and use history to support that a competitive attitude is everything. I was looking through a list of the top defenders over the history of the NFL, I can't think of one that didn't command the respect of those around him and use that verbally. The power of the tongue is prolific and especially when it comes from someone who comes in and earns the respect of his peers, not too mention how it affects the opposition and can distract them. They didn't call Joe "Mean" without cause, Ray Lewis wasn't considered quiet by any stretch, **** Butkus was the nastiest player to ever play this game. These guys are all top 10 in the history of being elite. As Amish said, a component of being great is being nasty mean and we don't see that much anymore because it's becoming a gentleman's sport.. I still like the Sherman type attitude I think its a component of being successful out there. Great example with Hawk.. he did NOT have that toughness about him..
 

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Urlacher wasn't a barker, Palamalo wasn't loud at all. Derrek Brooks just played football, Reggie White hardly said anything. Charles Woodson didn't say ****, except in a locker room. Jerry Rice was not loud mouth. I guess if we're sticking to defense, Nata has been stuffing the crap out of NFL running backs for a long time and he doesn't yell at anybody.
 

GleefulGary

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This is all in reference to my desire to draft white partly because of his leadership abilities.

I didnt say Hawks failures are because of his lack of leadership.

Admittedly, I didnt watch any Cowboy games and my opinion is based on draft research. Maybe you will prove correct. Only time will tell.

And how do you know White is a good leader? Are you in that locker room?
 

AmishMafia

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Look, I was trying to paint a picture with the fiery leader with the yelling. I dont know if White yells or not.

What's important is he will make a great play and obliterate a RB with a devastating hit. After which he will jump up and his teammates will get pumped and rally around him. You can see the entire defense get energized. He is an emotional on-field general that the defense rallies around.
 

GleefulGary

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Look, I was trying to paint a picture with the fiery leader with the yelling. I dont know if White yells or not.

What's important is he will make a great play and obliterate a RB with a devastating hit. After which he will jump up and his teammates will get pumped and rally around him. You can see the entire defense get energized. He is an emotional on-field general that the defense rallies around.

And I don't disagree with that. White is clearly a good player, but clearly has limitations to his game as well.

I just don't see how you can say this guy is a leader, and that this other guy isn't, when you don't have anything to base that on. We're not around these guys at all, we don't have a clue.
 

AmishMafia

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And I don't disagree with that. White is clearly a good player, but clearly has limitations to his game as well.

I just don't see how you can say this guy is a leader, and that this other guy isn't, when you don't have anything to base that on. We're not around these guys at all, we don't have a clue.
I think it's fairly obvious if you watch the game. Not sure why you feel you have to know them personally or see them naked in the lockerroom to know if someone is a leader or not, but to each their own.
 

GleefulGary

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I think it's fairly obvious if you watch the game. Not sure why you feel you have to know them personally or see them naked in the lockerroom to know if someone is a leader or not, but to each their own.

Ok. So you admit you haven't even watched Vander Esch play as a rookie, but you can tell from those brief glimpses that he's not a leader? That's some skill you've got.

And please keep your locker room fantasies to yourself. Thanks
 
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Urlacher wasn't a barker, Palamalo wasn't loud at all. Derrek Brooks just played football, Reggie White hardly said anything. Charles Woodson didn't say ****, except in a locker room. Jerry Rice was not loud mouth. I guess if we're sticking to defense, Nata has been stuffing the crap out of NFL running backs for a long time and he doesn't yell at anybody.
Actually you made my point with YOUR examples. Every example player you mentioned has been vocal in their career with rare exception. Reggie White used his tongue all the time, he was a Minister..who talks more than a preacher? Woodson gave speeches all the time and that’s a well known fact to anyone who truly followed him, it started early and often in Michigan but those who didn’t follow him would think he never spoke.
Show me one word in my entire post that you specifically responded to that says “yell” or “loud” Because I never said either those words.
You either clicked on my post by accident? Or you’re spinning a post to fit your narrative or Both?
 
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Mondio

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Every example player you mentioned has been vocal in their career with rare exception.
Show me one word in my entire post that you specifically responded to that says “yell”??
Unless you clicked on my post by accident?
Maybe I misinterpreted where you said the power of tongue to distract an opponent was somehow "leading" and then used one of the loudest players ever in the game in Ray Lewis just lead me to believe that's what you were getting at. I apologize. I still stand by my statement though, the best leaders don't have to say anything.
 
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Maybe I misinterpreted where you said the power of tongue to distract an opponent was somehow "leading" and then used one of the loudest players ever in the game in Ray Lewis just lead me to believe that's what you were getting at. I apologize. I still stand by my statement though, the best leaders don't have to say anything.
No problem. I appreciate your passion for the sport.
 

brandon2348

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Germaine Pratt is the pick and we wouldn't have to take him 12th. Reminds me a little of Darius Leonard. Too bad we already missed the ILB boat with picking Burks last year. :eek:

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Germaine Pratt is the pick and we wouldn't have to take him 12th. Reminds me a little of Darius Leonard. Too bad we already missed the ILB boat with picking Burks last year. :eek:

You realize that Leonard was picked 52 spots ahead of Burks, don't you???
 

thequick12

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Drafting White would just be more INSANITY!

Blake martinez is the 3rd best player on our defense and we just spent a 3rd round pick on Burks. Not to mention Josh Jones is being developed as a Hybrid ILB.

NO! NO! AND NO!. Pure INSANITY with many other needs.

Here's the problem there, if Martinez is the 3rd best player on your defense guess what that means? Your defense isn't very good. Because Martinez isn't very good. He makes a lot if tackles but very few plays. He's definitely better in pettines Ilb friendly scheme.

But white on the other hand would be a star in pettines defense. He does it all from the run to the pass to rushing the passer. Martinez is a liability in coverage white is an asset. Just because you already have a few ok guys at a position doesn't mean you pass on a guy who could be the playmaker your defense has needed for the last 20 years.

There's definitely guys I'd draft before white at 12. Josh Allen, bosa, quienen Williams, Ed Oliver, maybe a few others but realistically those guys are all gone in the top 10 if not the top 5
 

thequick12

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Germaine Pratt is the pick and we wouldn't have to take him 12th. Reminds me a little of Darius Leonard. Too bad we already missed the ILB boat with picking Burks last year. :eek:

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I'm definitely not against taking Pratt later on he's a player too it looks like. But if whites the best impact player left I'd take him. But yeah I'd be totally cool if say Josh Allen fell to 12. Grabbing him at 12 and Pratt in the fourth would be far more ideal than grabbing white at 12 but also far more unlikely
 

AmishMafia

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Allen wont last past 5. If he makes it to 12 there must be something we don't know about. Like testing positive for cocaine at the combine while smoking a joint.

Tre Lemar is another guy to look at.

From http://walterfootball.com

Tre Lamar*, ILB, Clemson Height: 6-3. Weight: 243. Projected 40 Time: 4.65. Projected Round (2019): 1-3. 2/16/19: In 2018, Lamar recorded 80 tackles with 5.5 for a loss, three sacks, one pass broken up and one interception. He played well for Clemson, setting a physical tone in the middle of the field. Lamar showed some intriguing edge rush skills also. Adding weight and moving to outside linebacker to be a speed rusher is an interesting idea to maximize Lamar's speed and athleticism.

8/29/18: According to NFL teams' preseason data provided by team sources, Lamar checks in 6-foot-3, 243 pounds with 32.5-inch arms, 9.5-inch hands and a 78-inch wingspan. They have him running the 40-yard dash in 4.65 seconds. Read more at http://walterfootball.com/draft2019ILB.php#8usjiYOs6YgIM36H.99


Not a big need IMHO at ILB.

White can be a very special player IMHO and you dont pass up guys like that.

If a Lamar or a Pratt somehow make it to 3rd or 4th. That would be great value
 

brandon2348

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Here's the problem there, if Martinez is the 3rd best player on your defense guess what that means? Your defense isn't very good. Because Martinez isn't very good. He makes a lot if tackles but very few plays. He's definitely better in pettines Ilb friendly scheme.

But white on the other hand would be a star in pettines defense. He does it all from the run to the pass to rushing the passer. Martinez is a liability in coverage white is an asset. Just because you already have a few ok guys at a position doesn't mean you pass on a guy who could be the playmaker your defense has needed for the last 20 years.

There's definitely guys I'd draft before white at 12. Josh Allen, bosa, quienen Williams, Ed Oliver, maybe a few others but realistically those guys are all gone in the top 10 if not the top 5

If there going to use the draft to continue to try to get the defense going my road would look like this.

Pick 30- Jaylon Ferguson Edge
2nd Round - Johnathan Abram FS
3rd Round Germaine Pratt ILb

I would also trade pick 12 and move back to acquire both

Parris Campbell WR
Chris Lindstrom G
 

brandon2348

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You realize that Leonard was picked 52 spots ahead of Burks, don't you???

What I am saying is the Packers already invested a premium pick on an athletic LB that lacks natural football instincts so here we are playing the "RE-DO GAME" again.
 

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