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Defense is at a crossroads.

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by Eli Haugen, Mar 6, 2016.

  1. Eli Haugen

    Eli Haugen Cheesehead

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    We got the spectrum of what Capers does with what players he's given. Day 1 he adopted a stacked Dline coming from a 4-3, and drafting Raji. With a new scheme and all, we still played one of the best seasons defensively in the Capers era... After that we let the big boys go one at a time. Replacing Cullen Jenkins with Neal, and banking on Jones to start from day one. We went weak on defense in general, and without the quality players. Capers scheme became lighter. Bend but dont break. Emphasis on coverage in todays new pass happy NFL, it seemed as though he abandoned the Dline all together. In that time period, the bend but dont break theory BROKE! and we broke big records for yards allowed or something big. It was painful to watch, and it came when the offense was basicly unstopable. Since then Thompson has picked up Guion. Raji stuck around and i hope he stays longer. Daniels took the next step. Pennell emerged as a solid NT, and with the heavy lifting done. Neal and Jones are producing more. Boyd was doing well when he went down. And when the defensive line was healthy , they were very effective. And the LBs cleaned up. The young secondary was able to settle in. GB def was becoming dominant. Boyd out, Raji hurt, guion coming in cold, shift of strategy and our defense isnt doing well again. not terrible, but not like they did those first 6 games we went 6-0...

    Im not suprising anyone when i say , i think its the d-line. We are facing a year where Guion and Raji were FAs. Pennell suspended for 4 games could be just like Guion situation last year. Possible loss of other contributors like Neal and Perry.... The core strength that got us to 6-0 is on the verge of being lost...

    Neal and Perry are ranked 70's and 80's in top 100 FA lists. Affordable IMO. Raji too. Affordable. Add a rookie stud DT in the 1st round to add to the group. All of a sudden we look to be building and developing a group that can own the trenches for a full 16 game season...

    If we dont sign Neal, Perry, Raji. Pennel comes in soft. boyd not 100%. Rookie isnt a instant impact.... We are 1 injury away from not having enough starters to field a competitive defensive front.

    So my question is. Who is a priority? What are players like Raji, Neal, and Perry worth?
     
  2. Vrill

    Vrill Cheesehead

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    The core is still there. I disagree that we are at a crossroads. Our secondary might be the best its been in years. We still have Clay, Peppers and Daniels anchoring the front. Really, all we need is an ILB worth their salt and we are golden. If we can find an ILB that starts day 1 via FA or the draft, you'll see our D make large strides next season.
     
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  3. Eli Haugen

    Eli Haugen Cheesehead

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    so you think if we were to get a good starter quality ILB. And lost Raji, Neal, and Perry. We would be making large strides. forward???
     
  4. CashInFist

    CashInFist Cheesehead

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    Doesn't Dom Capers like to run a hybrid 3-4 but was kind of pigeon holed into a 4-3 based on personnel? I could definitely be wrong, but I thought that is what happened.
     
  5. Eli Haugen

    Eli Haugen Cheesehead

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    Pretty sure Capers switched to a 3-4 from day one he was here. But he had a ton of verygood Dlinemen fro Shermans very good 4-3 defense. Kampman moved to OLB and was IMO doing great, when he blew his acl on a contract year. Every solid Dlineman was let go as their contracts expired. Except Pickett. And Jolly i supose, for the one year. Raji was the center piece when he was drafted, and he was dang near all alone, except old man Pickett and a young daniels. neal. That was the low point , when Raji got his reputation as unmotivated. Since then GB has gotten more help on the dline, and Peppers.
     
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  6. tynimiller

    tynimiller Cheesehead

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    We aren't going to lose all 3...I bet we don't even lose 2 of them.
     
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  7. Half Empty

    Half Empty Cheesehead

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    Don't want to speak for Vrill, but I re-read his post a couple of times and find no reference to losing those guys. Appears to me he's saying "ADD that ILB, and watch out".
     
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  8. Pokerbrat2000

    Pokerbrat2000 Opinions are like A-holes, we all have one.

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    We lose any or all of Raji, Neal, and Perry if the price isn't right. I don't view any of them as major losses that can't be replaced with equal or better talent. If the Packers plans are to let them walk, I fully expect to see a comparable FA brought in at DT and at least 1 DT and 1-2 OLB taken in the draft.
     
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  9. Ace

    Ace Cheesehead

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    I would agree with this for the most part in that we aren't going to lose all three but I think only 1 will be back. IMO it's between Raji and Perry. I think Neal has run his course here. I've said it every since Perry got here, the guy does have a role on the D, and he can get after the QB. He's a situational player in this defense, and if he could just stay healthy which is a big if, I think he could be (as has been) very effective in that situation pass rushing role. We know what Raji is, and with the questions on the D-Line, and has someone earlier pointed out about a rookie coming in and making an immediate impact, maybe it's wise to bring Raji back. I do believe only 1 will be brought back though.
     
  10. Mondio

    Mondio Cheesehead

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    I can see a case for any, all or 1. none is tougher to see happening, but I guess it's all about the price in the end.
     
  11. tynimiller

    tynimiller Cheesehead

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    Similar to my mindset...I don't see teams running at Perry with money and TT will resign once Perry doesn't get more elsewhere.....and Raji I think is much the same way.

    For some reason I think Neal is going to get some cash from someone...and it will probably be above what TT and company feel makes him worth it. Although it would not shock me if he comes back but my bet is he of the 3 is out...despite some arguing Perry doesn't fit our scheme as well as he would elsewhere (which I'm not necessarily disagreeing with).
     
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  12. C-Lee

    C-Lee Cheesehead

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    D-Line can be improved and we obviously need help at ILB, but our defense is pretty nice.
     
  13. El Guapo

    El Guapo Cheesehead

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    I'm in total agreement with tyinmiller about Raji, Neal, Perry. Personally Neal is the least of the three that I'd want to see back. Perry is really showing his talent but as it is with this game, he has to stay healthy. We will take that chance but most others won't.

    Our defense was good all season even during our losing streak. Our time of possession was nearly identical to the previous two seasons, which tells me with all of the Packers' three and outs that our defense was getting the ball back for us and keeping us within striking distance to win games. Obviously we lost a lot of those games but we had a lot of chances to win them because our defense did well. The time of possession should have been lopsided based upon the poor performance of our offense. Our defense coupled with a good offense can win a championship.

    My highest defensive needs line up as ILB first, then DL, then OLB. Of course, who knows how, when, or if they will be addressed this season.
     
  14. Eli Haugen

    Eli Haugen Cheesehead

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    Along with Guion who was also on this list when the season ended. I think this group of 4 guys gave our defense a toughness that we havnt had in recent year. Peppers also had a lot to do with our strength of our front 7. Neal and Perry are IMO really becoming the guys we drafted them to develope into... Raji is our highest pick, and IMO he fell to that spot. He has the potential to be very good for a lot more years...

    Daniels and Guion are already signed. But...
     
  15. Carl

    Carl Cheesehead

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    Perry is a hit or miss guy for me. He was VERY good in the playoffs last season. Maybe that was just a fluke, but maybe it wasn't. Do the Packers want to give on on a guy who might be becoming a very good pass rusher? I'm glad I don't have to make decisions like that.

    As you said though, it is all about the price.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2016
  16. Eli Haugen

    Eli Haugen Cheesehead

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    Daniels guion perry....... two left. raji, neal?
    Daniels got 10mil/yr
    Guion got 3
    perry got 5 for just 1 year. (after we gave up his 5th year option? weird.

    Whats raji and neals value?
     
  17. Half Empty

    Half Empty Cheesehead

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    This stuff is often hard to follow, but I understand we now have Perry for $5 mil when picking up the option meant we get the same guy for over $7 mil. How is that weird?
     
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  18. Pokerbrat2000

    Pokerbrat2000 Opinions are like A-holes, we all have one.

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    I read that Perry's option would have been for $7.75 mil. Doesn't really mater, still a savings that allows the Packers to get another year out of Perry that they must feel is worth the $5M.

    Would be interesting to know what Perry wanted for a longer term deal and how this route turns out if Perry does have an outstanding 2016.
     
  19. Half Empty

    Half Empty Cheesehead

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    The "prove it" contracts bother me specifically from this standpoint. There are no good scenarios. If he bombs, they overpaid, prevented someone else from auditioning, and didn't fill the hole. If he's great, they probably won't be able to afford him beyond next year (or, for the capologists, at least make it much more difficult). The only way I'm not upset is if he somehow is the missing piece for the elusive Lombardi.
     
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  20. Pokerbrat2000

    Pokerbrat2000 Opinions are like A-holes, we all have one.

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    I agree for the most part, especially in regards to Perry. But, the "prove it" contracts do work out when you lock up a guy on a 4 year basis (instead of 1) at what may appear to be over paying the first year, but underpaying the remaining years due to improved play by said player. Can't think of a player off the top of my head that we did this with, but pretty sure it happens.
     
  21. Half Empty

    Half Empty Cheesehead

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    Possible, but in my mind, "prove it" contract = one year.
     
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  22. Pokerbrat2000

    Pokerbrat2000 Opinions are like A-holes, we all have one.

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    OK, I see where you were going with that. Maybe not enough coffee on my part. :coffee: The Raji type of contract.

    I was thinking more of the second contract, where a team isn't completely sold on a players ability, but don't want to risk losing them after the following year of predicted improvement.
     
  23. TJV

    TJV Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    My guess is Perry's agent was focusing on what kind of deal he could get from other teams and I think we have the answer. If Perry is outstanding in 2016, the money for a long-term deal could be had from Peppers no longer being a Packer. If he gets injured or under-performs not signing him to a four-year deal will have worked out.
     
  24. Half Empty

    Half Empty Cheesehead

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    I see, here and elsewhere, the "pay Perry with Peppers' salary" thoughts. My problem is that the cap is a zero sum game, and there are a bunch of folks coming up for renewal after next year. Certainly, plenty of "who dat?" players, but some important ones, as well.

    Josh Sitton G 29 8 5 yr $33,750,000 $6,750,000 $8,900,000 2017
    Julius Peppers OLB 36 14 3 yr $26,000,000 $8,666,667 $7,500,000 2017
    T.J. Lang G 28 7 4 yr $20,800,000 $5,200,000 $5,500,000 2017
    Datone Jones DE 25 3 4 yr $7,716,588 $1,929,147 $6,259,326 2017
    Tim Masthay P 28 6 4 yr $5,465,000 $1,366,250 $1,200,000 2017
    Nick Perry OLB 25 4 1 yr $5,000,000 $5,000,000 - 2017
    Eddie Lacy RB 25 3 4 yr $3,392,412 $848,103 $1,040,208 2017
    David Bakhtiari LT 24 3 4 yr $2,615,400 $653,850 $455,400 2017
    J.C. Tretter C 25 3 4 yr $2,575,908 $643,977 $415,908 2017
    Micah Hyde SS 25 3 4 yr $2,338,108 $584,527 $178,108 2017
    Josh Boyd DT 26 3 4 yr $2,304,560 $576,140 $144,560 2017
    Nate Palmer ILB 26 3 4 yr $2,258,896 $564,724 $98,896 2017
    Sam Barrington ILB 25 3 4 yr $2,209,000 $552,250 $49,000 2017
    Jayrone Elliot OLB 24 2 3 yr $1,535,000 $511,667 $5,000 2017
    Mike Pennel DE 24 2 3 yr $1,533,500 $511,167 $3,500 2017
    Joe Thomas OLB 24 1 2 yr $960,000 $480,000 - 2017
    Josh Walker G 24 1 2 yr $960,000 $480,000 - 2017
    John Crockett RB 24
    2 yr $960,000 $480,000 - 2017
    Rick Lovato LS 23
    2 yr $960,000 $480,000 - 2017
    Chris Banjo SS 26 2 1 yr $675,000 $675,000 - 2017
    William Campbell G 24 2 1 yr $525,000 $525,000 - 2017
    Carl Bradford ILB 23 2 1 yr $525,000 $525,000 - 2017
    Mitchell Henry TE 23
    1 yr $525,000 $525,000 - 2017
    Jeremy Vujnovich LT 25 1 1 yr $450,000 $450,000 - 2017
    Christian Ringo DE 24
    1 yr $450,000 $450,000 - 2017
    Matt Rotheram G 23
    1 yr $450,000 $450,000 - 2017
    Matt Rotheram G 23
    1 yr $450,000 $450,000 - 2017
    B.J. McBryde DE 24
    1 yr $450,000 $450,000 - 2017
    Ed Williams WR
    1 yr $450,000 $450,000 - 2017
     
  25. TJV

    TJV Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    Of course the cap is a zero sum game (a point I've made over and over) and it's not only if Peppers' $10.5M cap hit falls off. Including Peppers' according to overthecap, the Packers are obligated for about $123M in players under contract for 2017. Without a carryover, that probably leaves them about $33M under the cap. If Perry plays like he did in the playoffs and stays healthy (given his history, two big ifs) a longer term contract can spread out the cap hit - along with Lacy (if in shape), Bakhtiari, Tretter, one of the OGs, etc. I hope the Packers have that problem with Perry.
     

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