Defense- Big question

easyk83

Cheesehead
Joined
Apr 20, 2013
Messages
2,783
Reaction score
280
From Tom Silverstein:

How do you allow a team to convert 3 of 7 third downs, complete passes of 59, 52, 39 and 23 yards and give up runs of 23 and 14 yards in the first 30 minutes and then limit that same offense to 142 yards and 10 points in the second 30?

This Packer fan's thoughts on the question and the game:

I have to suspect that Jake Ryan's entrance into the game, in place of Nate Palmer, helped stabilize things. Ryan wasn't outstanding but he managed to be where he was supposed to be. Which was a step up from nate Palmer who despite being physical against the run just doesn't have a feel for his drops into coverage. Jake Ryan seems to be good for taking away one passing lane on any given drop back.

The good, the interior run defense has been very stout, Pennel and Raji have been a bulwark against opposing rushing attacks.

The bad, everything else. IMHO the passing game should stabilize once Sam Shields comes back and Hayward goes back to the slot where he belongs. When that happens the outside pass Defense will turn from minus to plus. The addition of Jake Ryan and the continued improvement of Demarius Randall should give us a good unit on the back end. What we need to do is recreate the push and rush Nick Perry was creating back when he was healthy. I think you recreate that by playing Datone Jones outside OT in a 5 and sometimes even a 7 tech, he's looked very good from out there thus far. Let's see what he can do full time. Let Nick Perry rest and get that shoulder right for the final push. HHCD looks like an instinctive player at times, not sure where his head has been lately.
 
Last edited:

Fadam1137

Cheesehead
Joined
Oct 26, 2015
Messages
15
Reaction score
2
Don't have an answer but maybe Hyde should take his spot for a few weeks until it does get answered.
I think hhcd is getting overwhelmed by the workload. It seems like he's in every tackle. He did look a little out of it in coverage Sunday but he is really good and a play maker. With shields hurt, I feel like he's trying to do too much. He'll come around sooner than later IMO.
 
OP
OP
E

easyk83

Cheesehead
Joined
Apr 20, 2013
Messages
2,783
Reaction score
280
BTW consider Clay's production back when Nick Perry was healthy and playing with authority on the edge and consider Clay's production after Nick's injury. We need to recreate that edge presence somehow. When you have someone doing what Nick was doing it creates great gaps for someone like Clay Matthews to attack, without that kind of play those inside pressures go away.
 

Shawnsta3

Cheesehead
Joined
Aug 19, 2011
Messages
1,273
Reaction score
137
Location
Manawa & Shawano, WI
Don't have an answer but maybe Hyde should take his spot for a few weeks until it does get answered.
While its probably a good idea for the long term standpoint of a young player, not sure you could argue this side from a current football standpoint. Hyde while knowing his assignments and being one of the surest tacklers on the team, would just struggle too much in coverage especially at FS compared to Clinton-Dix.
 

Poppa San

* Team Owner *
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Aug 29, 2010
Messages
13,011
Reaction score
2,867
Location
20 miles from Lambeau
While its probably a good idea for the long term standpoint of a young player, not sure you could argue this side from a current football standpoint. Hyde while knowing his assignments and being one of the surest tacklers on the team, would just struggle too much in coverage especially at FS compared to Clinton-Dix.
Hmm, paint me confused. I thought Hyde WAS a cornerback, you know, the position that covers pass receivers more often than at safety. Didn't he start there in '14 until Ha'sean was competent enough to start? I would think he could do it again until the sophomore slump wears off.
 

PackerDNA

Cheesehead
Joined
Jun 8, 2014
Messages
6,451
Reaction score
1,507
Poppa San, I could be wrong, but I think Hyde was a safety at Iowa, and has been here ,too.
 

TJV

Lifelong Packers Fanatic
Joined
Feb 22, 2011
Messages
5,389
Reaction score
954
How do you allow a team to convert 3 of 7 third downs, complete passes of 59, 52, 39 and 23 yards and give up runs of 23 and 14 yards in the first 30 minutes and then limit that same offense to 142 yards and 10 points in the second 30?
(Hand raised shouting Oooooo oooooo ooooo!!!!) I think I got this! Play really really crappy in the first half and much better in the second?? Am I right? Am I right?

Seriously I was happy to see Ryan at ILB and Hyde is listed as a "DB" on the roster. He's played both safety and slot CB, but never outside CB (as far as I know).
 

Mondio

Cheesehead
Joined
Dec 20, 2014
Messages
15,893
Reaction score
3,797
I thought he was playing CB his first few seasons here.
They did move him there when he first got here, but he has been playing some safety position too because they figured he was a player they needed to get on the field.

BUt I should add, he's been better as a safety up near the line or covering a TE. I don't think he has enough range to be the guy preventing the deep stuff
 

gopkrs

Cheesehead
Joined
May 12, 2014
Messages
5,470
Reaction score
1,323
BTW consider Clay's production back when Nick Perry was healthy and playing with authority on the edge and consider Clay's production after Nick's injury. We need to recreate that edge presence somehow. When you have someone doing what Nick was doing it creates great gaps for someone like Clay Matthews to attack, without that kind of play those inside pressures go away.
This is a great point. But not only for Perry. I get so sick of seeing the Packers blitz up the middle and get picked up cleanly and easily. They need to create lanes for the blitzers. And the blitzers sometimes need to allow the lanes to develop...but quickly. And yes, I blame this inability on Capers. Getting a lot of sacks against mediocre lines does not win the big ones. It is just padding stats.
 

PackerDNA

Cheesehead
Joined
Jun 8, 2014
Messages
6,451
Reaction score
1,507
Blitzing is about instincts, timing, and the ability to disguise your intent as long as possible.
Not many guys have that.
 
OP
OP
E

easyk83

Cheesehead
Joined
Apr 20, 2013
Messages
2,783
Reaction score
280
Blitzing is about instincts, timing, and the ability to disguise your intent as long as possible.
Not many guys have that.

It's a lot easier to do this when you have guys up front who can win the one on one. Nick Perry was beating some decent OTs during his stretch of strong play. He trashed Joe Staley for atleast one of his sacks. We need to recreate that pressure from the right side. Right now Clay Matthews is not the same player that he was on the edges earlier in his career. He's taking a lot more snaps inside and it shows.
 

gopkrs

Cheesehead
Joined
May 12, 2014
Messages
5,470
Reaction score
1,323
Blitzing is about instincts, timing, and the ability to disguise your intent as long as possible.
Not many guys have that.
timing and the ability to disguise can be taught. I just don't think it is on our team. At least not well.
 

Sky King

158.3
Joined
Sep 27, 2012
Messages
2,817
Reaction score
331
Location
Out of the clear blue western skies...
Perhaps both our starting Safeties are better against the run than the pass, though neither look like All-Pros either way. They don't display that kind of talent consistently. They fit the profile of this flash and gash defense. Every once in a while they flash but they're still getting gashed.
 
D

Deleted member 6794

Guest
Don't have an answer but maybe Hyde should take his spot for a few weeks until it does get answered.

Hyde has struggled in coverage over the last few games as well and doesn't have the required range to play free safety on a high level.

BTW consider Clay's production back when Nick Perry was healthy and playing with authority on the edge and consider Clay's production after Nick's injury. We need to recreate that edge presence somehow. When you have someone doing what Nick was doing it creates great gaps for someone like Clay Matthews to attack, without that kind of play those inside pressures go away.

I think you're overestimating Perry's production. There's no doubt the Packers have to somehow get the pass rush going again.
 
OP
OP
E

easyk83

Cheesehead
Joined
Apr 20, 2013
Messages
2,783
Reaction score
280
Hyde has struggled in coverage over the last few games as well and doesn't have the required range to play free safety on a high level.



I think you're overestimating Perry's production. There's no doubt the Packers have to somehow get the pass rush going again.

For a 2.5 game stretch he was very productive, and Matthews production dovetails with Perry's surge.
 
OP
OP
E

easyk83

Cheesehead
Joined
Apr 20, 2013
Messages
2,783
Reaction score
280
BTW

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/340472201.html

Not sure how long it'll be before they give this kid more of a chance, since when are first rounders frozen out? I say give him 25+ snaps, maybe even 40, next game and see what he does with them. In particular play him out wide, it's not often that you see a man with his dimensions and overall athleticism.
 

Sanguine camper

Cheesehead
Joined
Jan 14, 2014
Messages
1,980
Reaction score
602
Wak
From Tom Silverstein:

How do you allow a team to convert 3 of 7 third downs, complete passes of 59, 52, 39 and 23 yards and give up runs of 23 and 14 yards in the first 30 minutes and then limit that same offense to 142 yards and 10 points in the second 30?

This Packer fan's thoughts on the question and the game:

I have to suspect that Jake Ryan's entrance into the game, in place of Nate Palmer, helped stabilize things. Ryan wasn't outstanding but he managed to be where he was supposed to be. Which was a step up from nate Palmer who despite being physical against the run just doesn't have a feel for his drops into coverage. Jake Ryan seems to be good for taking away one passing lane on any given drop back.

The good, the interior run defense has been very stout, Pennel and Raji have been a bulwark against opposing rushing attacks.

The bad, everything else. IMHO the passing game should stabilize once Sam Shields comes back and Hayward goes back to the slot where he belongs. When that happens the outside pass Defense will turn from minus to plus. The addition of Jake Ryan and the continued improvement of Demarius Randall should give us a good unit on the back end. What we need to do is recreate the push and rush Nick Perry was creating back when he was healthy. I think you recreate that by playing Datone Jones outside OT in a 5 and sometimes even a 7 tech, he's looked very good from out there thus far. Let's see what he can do full time. Let Nick Perry rest and get that shoulder right for the final push. HHCD looks like an instinctive player at times, not sure where his head has been lately.
wake up this defense sucks!
 

Carl

Cheesehead
Joined
Nov 6, 2013
Messages
3,073
Reaction score
272
Location
Madison, Wisconsin
While its probably a good idea for the long term standpoint of a young player, not sure you could argue this side from a current football standpoint. Hyde while knowing his assignments and being one of the surest tacklers on the team, would just struggle too much in coverage especially at FS compared to Clinton-Dix.

I can't see him struggling anymore than Haha did vs. Carolina.
 

Shawnsta3

Cheesehead
Joined
Aug 19, 2011
Messages
1,273
Reaction score
137
Location
Manawa & Shawano, WI
I can't see him struggling anymore than Haha did vs. Carolina.
Well that was probably the worst game of his young career, so I can't really see HaHa struggling like that again either. But if you think Hyde has the coverage skills needed for FS, you're seeing something I'm not.
 

Patriotplayer90

Cheesehead
Joined
Nov 2, 2015
Messages
1,874
Reaction score
130
BTW

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/340472201.html

Not sure how long it'll be before they give this kid more of a chance, since when are first rounders frozen out? I say give him 25+ snaps, maybe even 40, next game and see what he does with them. In particular play him out wide, it's not often that you see a man with his dimensions and overall athleticism.
They are too stubborn. Seems like if a player they hand pick doesn't work in their precious system or fails at trying to be something they are not, they give up on them instead of utilizing their strengths (cough....Janis....cough)
 

longtimefan

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Mar 7, 2005
Messages
25,383
Reaction score
4,105
Location
Milwaukee
They are too stubborn. Seems like if a player they hand pick doesn't work in their precious system or fails at trying to be something they are not, they give up on them instead of utilizing their strengths (cough....Janis....cough)

I dont agree with the statement they are stubborn and give up on a player..

Cledious Hunt---Justin Harrell---Brad Jones---Marshall Newhouse---All sucked, all drafted and all got many many chances and they didnt give up on them...

As far as Janis---he still has play book issues..if rodgers can't trust you,you prob wont be in..I heard Jordy mention that not to long ago
 

7thFloorRA

Cheesehead
Joined
Jan 19, 2011
Messages
2,573
Reaction score
331
Location
Grafton, WI
Is it a playbook issue or an audible issue. Since there are clearly issues with the wr's and the offense as a whole it might be wise to lower the mental standards to increase the physical standards. I don't want guys running wrong routes...i am talking more about simplifying the offense and doing less line reads and just going with a scripted play. Its not like the reads are working right now. Guys are still not getting open.
 
D

Deleted member 6794

Guest
I can't see him struggling anymore than Haha did vs. Carolina.

Clinton-Dix had a terrible game against the Panthers but he´s still way better suited to play at free safety than Hyde.

As far as Janis---he still has play book issues..if rodgers can't trust you,you prob wont be in..I heard Jordy mention that not to long ago

Rodgers has to start worrying about his receivers making mental mistakes and give them a chance to make plays. Otherwise with the currentr receiving corps and their route trees the offense will continue to struggle against good coverage units.

Is it a playbook issue or an audible issue. Since there are clearly issues with the wr's and the offense as a whole it might be wise to lower the mental standards to increase the physical standards. I don't want guys running wrong routes...i am talking more about simplifying the offense and doing less line reads and just going with a scripted play. Its not like the reads are working right now. Guys are still not getting open.

I don´t know how many scripted plays the Packers have planned in advance to start the game but it seems that the offense works way better during that period.
 
Top