Defending Janis

[easyk83]

Pretty Flynn makes the point for the Janis is overrated crowd. One big game but nothing else

Flynn never had the natural talent Janis has,even before the injury he was an average talent on a physical level... well in terms of throwing. Average armstrength at best but + mobility.

 

[bigbubbatd]

Flynn never had the natural talent Janis has,even before the injury he was an average talent on a physical level... well in terms of throwing. Average armstrength at best but + mobility.

Not arguing talent. Talking about production. Small same size that goes against the rest of his body of work. Flynn and Janis are opposite in talent vs understanding of the game but are similar in lack of production outside of one game

 

[RRyder]

Not arguing talent. Talking about production. Small same size that goes against the rest of his body of work. Flynn and Janis are opposite in talent vs understanding of the game but are similar in lack of production outside of one game

Flynn was also a pretty good practice player. Not sure where the narrative came from he wasn't. He beat out a much higher draft pick with the better physical tools his rookie season and yes played better when actually given the chance to play, ie NE, but most importantly was never going to play outside of a worst case scenario. Something that is not being argued for by the Janis supporters but something that even just last year was a reality.

The comparison is horrible when discussing the the future of Janis as the level of play that's been shown is clearly on the side if Flynn while the level of hype surrounding Janis is so far tilted his way he might as well be a black diamond

In any case Flynn, even by his most hardened supporter was viewed as a potentially solid starter at BEST even after his big game. Janis is being talked about as a potential STUD WR by some after one game.

Hell Janis would be lucky to have a career equivalent of the one Flynn had and we'd all be ecstatic if he did. People just need to pump the freaking brakes for a bit but they won't cause I know he's big and runs fast. God forbid he learns how to run a pass route, learns the playbook or learns to improve his catch radius before we annoint him. I mean just look at his speed.

Samkon Gado truly is the better comparison and case study of a lesson that I'm actually genuinely suprised that people haven't learned yet. That one single game is not necessarily a predecessor of future success.

 

[bigbubbatd]

Flynn was also a pretty good practice player. Not sure where the narrative came from he wasn't. He beat out a much higher draft pick with the better physical tools his rookie season and yes played better when actually given the chance to play, ie NE, but most importantly was never going to play outside of a worst case scenario. Something that is not being argued for by the Janis supporters but something that even just last year was a reality.

The comparison is horrible when discussing the the future of Janis as the level of play that's been shown is clearly on the side if Flynn while the level of hype surrounding Janis is so far tilted his way he might as well be a black diamond

In any case Flynn, even by his most hardened supporter was viewed as a potentially solid starter at BEST even after his big game. Janis is being talked about as a potential STUD WR by some after one game.

Hell Janis would be lucky to have a career equivalent of the one Flynn had and we'd all be ecstatic if he did. People just need to pump the freaking brakes for a bit but they won't cause I know he's big and runs fast. God forbid he learns how to run a pass route, learns the playbook or learns to improve his catch radius before we annoint him. I mean just look at his speed.

Samkon Gado truly is the better comparison and case study of a lesson that I'm actually genuinely suprised that people haven't learned yet. That one single game is not necessarily a predecessor of future success.

I completely agree. Gado is great comp. The point I was trying to make was for every Bishop who was bad in practice but good in games there are hundreds of other who bad in practice and bad in games and that is Janis minus one game.

I also hadn't heard about Flynn being bad in practice but the Janis supporters through it out there. I actually had saying supporter or detreactor in this debate because I am a Janis supporter. I want him to succeed but he just hasn't yet and really hasn't given a ton of reason to think he will

 

[Deleted member 6794]

First, how else do you evaluate young players, or should we limit such evaluation to practice reports?

The preseason games are important for the coaching staff to evaluate players on the bubble to decide who is making the final roster. Once the regular season starts it doesn't mean anything though and fans should stop acting as if it does.

As for regular season performance yes it was uneven but the guy can play, he does seize his opportunities and when he's where he's supposed to be he catches it. Janis should be able to pick up the play book and pick up the intricacies of an NFL offense.

Unfortunately Janis is rarely where he's supposed to be because he doesn't know the playbook. That and his inability to run pro level routes are the main reasons he doesn't get on the field more often.He hasn't been able to grasp the playbook within two years and I have a hard believing another offseason will change anything about it.

Flynn never had the natural talent Janis has,even before the injury he was an average talent on a physical level... well in terms of throwing. Average armstrength at best but + mobility.

Do you realize that it takes more than great physical traits to become a decent receiver in the NFL???

 

[gopkrs]

None of it. All the stats. What he has or has not done during practice. Whether or not he runs crisp routes. None of that matters to me. For me, he deserves a good look If the coaches don't give it to him because he does not live up to their practice standards...then shame on them. Same goes for Rodgers. Not saying he is the 2nd coming. Just saying he deserves a look. At least he could do better than Jones who just ran down the sideline taking up space and one defender. Not a Jones lover.

 

[adambr2]

I honestly think the anti-Janis crowd here is a bit over reactionary. I don't think anyone is suggesting that Janis is the NFL's next great WR. People are simply saying that Janis has a valuable skill set and we should be looking to more proactively incorporate that into our offense.

While most assume that Janis' lack of playing time stems from a poor knowledge of the playbook, it's also possible that the playbook issue is overblown and that there were other factors involved. It's also possible that one of the other factors is simply the coaching staff having erred in getting him more involved earlier.

McCarthy himself said in January, 'Jeff Janis is a young man who just needs to play.'

 

[Sky King]

...Unfortunately Janis is rarely where he's supposed to be because he doesn't know the playbook. That and his inability to run pro level routes are the main reasons he doesn't get on the field more often.He hasn't been able to grasp the playbook within two years and I have a hard believing another offseason will change anything about it.

Do you realize that it takes more than great physical traits to become a decent receiver in the NFL???

...Samkon Gado truly is the better comparison and case study of a lesson that I'm actually genuinely suprised that people haven't learned yet. That one single game is not necessarily a predecessor of future success.

As a matter of record you two have been demonstratively unimpressed with Janis' performances to date. At the other end of the spectrum are those who believe Janis has a reasonable chance to be a meaningful contributor on offense this upcoming season. Here is a friendly proposal for you:

You are invited to accept a sporting challenge that will benefit a charity and one that should also be fun to follow for forumites that have shown an interest in this ongoing Janis debate. Plus, you will have the opportunity to claim tangible bragging rights as long as you end-up prevailing. Barring a season-ending injury, and based upon your best football judgment, what do you predict should be established as the over and under for total number of receptions, receiving yards and all receiving TDs that Janis will produce during this upcoming 2016 regular season. No asterisks or cherry-picked exclusions will be allowed. All receptions, all receiving yards, and all receiving TDs Janis scores must count just as they would for all the other NFL players that will be playing in 2016 though.

In collaboration you two will first need to establish the single over and under projections for each of the three aforementioned categories. The way this works is that I get to choose either the over or the under for each of the three performance categories once you've established them. At season's end it will take two category wins, minimum, in order to win this throw down. The loser may volunteer to make a donation to a mutually agreed upon charity. Win-win.

And to make the challenge more interesting, in the event Janis is placed on IR, cut or traded before his over and under numbers can be met or surpassed the default tie-breaker shall be the same three performance categories for Davonte Adams in 2016. And, yes, you will also get to establish the over and under numbers for him, as well.

In the event nobody qualifies for the challenge per the criteria stated above or if an unlikely push results, then I volunteer to make a charitable donation, regardless. No matter what a worthy charity shall be served.

Are you up to the challenge?

 

[Sky King]

Crickets?

 

[HardRightEdge]

As a matter of record you two have been demonstratively unimpressed with Janis' performances to date. At the other end of the spectrum are those who believe Janis has a reasonable chance to be a meaningful contributor on offense this upcoming season. Here is a friendly proposal for you:

You are invited to accept a sporting challenge that will benefit a charity and one that should also be fun to follow for forumites that have shown an interest in this ongoing Janis debate. Plus, you will have the opportunity to claim tangible bragging rights as long as you end-up prevailing. Barring a season-ending injury, and based upon your best football judgment, what do you predict should be established as the over and under for total number of receptions, receiving yards and all receiving TDs that Janis will produce during this upcoming 2016 regular season. No asterisks or cherry-picked exclusions will be allowed. All receptions, all receiving yards, and all receiving TDs Janis scores must count just as they would for all the other NFL players that will be playing in 2016 though.

In collaboration you two will first need to establish the single over and under projections for each of the three aforementioned categories. The way this works is that I get to choose either the over or the under for each of the three performance categories once you've established them. At season's end it will take two category wins, minimum, in order to win this throw down. The loser may volunteer to make a donation to a mutually agreed upon charity. Win-win.

And to make the challenge more interesting, in the event Janis is placed on IR, cut or traded before his over and under numbers can be met or surpassed the default tie-breaker shall be the same three performance categories for Davonte Adams in 2016. And, yes, you will also get to establish the over and under numbers for him, as well.

In the event nobody qualifies for the challenge per the criteria stated above or if an unlikely push results, then I volunteer to make a charitable donation, regardless. No matter what a worthy charity shall be served.

Are you up to the challenge?

I would wager that Janis will actually improve somewhat in his gunner role, and will go out on a limb and peg him for 14 solo tackles, 2 above last season's counting by PFF. This will put him top 10 in the league, give or take.

 

[Mondio]

I'm confused, betting lingo isn't my thing.

I'm going 26 catches, 410 yards and 4 TDs for Janis.

Adams- 47 catches 650 yards, 6 touchdowns

 

[RRyder]

As a matter of record you two have been demonstratively unimpressed with Janis' performances to date. At the other end of the spectrum are those who believe Janis has a reasonable chance to be a meaningful contributor on offense this upcoming season. Here is a friendly proposal for you:

You are invited to accept a sporting challenge that will benefit a charity and one that should also be fun to follow for forumites that have shown an interest in this ongoing Janis debate. Plus, you will have the opportunity to claim tangible bragging rights as long as you end-up prevailing. Barring a season-ending injury, and based upon your best football judgment, what do you predict should be established as the over and under for total number of receptions, receiving yards and all receiving TDs that Janis will produce during this upcoming 2016 regular season. No asterisks or cherry-picked exclusions will be allowed. All receptions, all receiving yards, and all receiving TDs Janis scores must count just as they would for all the other NFL players that will be playing in 2016 though.

In collaboration you two will first need to establish the single over and under projections for each of the three aforementioned categories. The way this works is that I get to choose either the over or the under for each of the three performance categories once you've established them. At season's end it will take two category wins, minimum, in order to win this throw down. The loser may volunteer to make a donation to a mutually agreed upon charity. Win-win.

And to make the challenge more interesting, in the event Janis is placed on IR, cut or traded before his over and under numbers can be met or surpassed the default tie-breaker shall be the same three performance categories for Davonte Adams in 2016. And, yes, you will also get to establish the over and under numbers for him, as well.

In the event nobody qualifies for the challenge per the criteria stated above or if an unlikely push results, then I volunteer to make a charitable donation, regardless. No matter what a worthy charity shall be served.

Are you up to the challenge?

Crickets?

It's not crickets and not worth a challenge as nobody is rooting against Janis. We all want him to succeed. The difference is that some of us simply think he should show his ability on the field for more than one game before anointing him as Jordy 2.0 as some have.

In any case I allready give money to charity. I don't need a bet to do so.

If you want a stat line for Janis though I'd guess 15 receptions for 220 yards and 2 TDs. Great numbers for the number 6 WR

 

[Poppa San]

Crickets?

8 hours really ain't a lot of time. Especially when for most of the posters it is over night.

 

[Sky King]

It's not crickets and not worth a challenge as nobody is rooting against Janis. We all want him to succeed. The difference is that some of us simply think he should show his ability on the field for more than one game before anointing him as Jordy 2.0 as some have.

In any case I allready give money to charity. I don't need a bet to do so.

If you want a stat line for Janis though I'd guess 15 receptions for 220 yards and 2 TDs. Great numbers for the number 6 WR

Well, that's a start. Not a bet. I don't care if I win or lose the throw down since the donation would go to a good cause.

8 hours really ain't a lot of time. Especially when for most of the posters it is over night.

I was just looking for a reaction. One down, one to go.

 

[Sky King]

I would wager that Janis will actually improve somewhat in his gunner role, and will go out on a limb and peg him for 14 solo tackles, 2 above last season's counting by PFF. This will put him top 10 in the league, give or take.

Nice numbers. Except for the purposes of this particular throw down the topic is limited to his performance as a receiver on offense, only.

But if you want to start a separate throw down just for the fun of it I'm your Huckleberry.

Maybe we can get something going here for charity. Somebody on the forum has a young family member that has a concerning childhood condition. There was an opportunity to donate to that charity about a year ago, I believe. I'll get the additional information and let's look at that. Perhaps folks can line-up on either side of the issue for the benefit of that child. Either way one would get to smile.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Just saying he deserves a look. At least he could do better than Jones who just ran down the sideline taking up space and one defender. Not a Jones lover.

Yeah, why trust a veteran receiver who has had more than 400 career receptions over a guy whose regular season catches can be counted on a single hand???

I honestly think the anti-Janis crowd here is a bit over reactionary. I don't think anyone is suggesting that Janis is the NFL's next great WR. People are simply saying that Janis has a valuable skill set and we should be looking to more proactively incorporate that into our offense.

I agree with you most of the time but in this case I think the posters elevating Janis to at least a decent starter opposite of Nelson are way too optimistic. It's true the Packers should incorporate him occasionally on deep routes but other than that he hasn't done anything justifying him getting on the field more often.

As a matter of record you two have been demonstratively unimpressed with Janis' performances to date. At the other end of the spectrum are those who believe Janis has a reasonable chance to be a meaningful contributor on offense this upcoming season. Here is a friendly proposal for you:

You are invited to accept a sporting challenge that will benefit a charity and one that should also be fun to follow for forumites that have shown an interest in this ongoing Janis debate. Plus, you will have the opportunity to claim tangible bragging rights as long as you end-up prevailing. Barring a season-ending injury, and based upon your best football judgment, what do you predict should be established as the over and under for total number of receptions, receiving yards and all receiving TDs that Janis will produce during this upcoming 2016 regular season. No asterisks or cherry-picked exclusions will be allowed. All receptions, all receiving yards, and all receiving TDs Janis scores must count just as they would for all the other NFL players that will be playing in 2016 though.

In collaboration you two will first need to establish the single over and under projections for each of the three aforementioned categories. The way this works is that I get to choose either the over or the under for each of the three performance categories once you've established them. At season's end it will take two category wins, minimum, in order to win this throw down. The loser may volunteer to make a donation to a mutually agreed upon charity. Win-win.

And to make the challenge more interesting, in the event Janis is placed on IR, cut or traded before his over and under numbers can be met or surpassed the default tie-breaker shall be the same three performance categories for Davonte Adams in 2016. And, yes, you will also get to establish the over and under numbers for him, as well.

In the event nobody qualifies for the challenge per the criteria stated above or if an unlikely push results, then I volunteer to make a charitable donation, regardless. No matter what a worthy charity shall be served.

Are you up to the challenge?

I already support some charities as well so there's no reason to make a bet like that. My optimistic projection for Janis in 2016 has him haul in 25 passes for 375 yards and 4 TDs.

Just one thing, I don't want you to choose the over or under on those numbers but come up with your own.

 

[bigbubbatd]

I think captains numbers look good but here is the issue there are some here who want to run off Adam's and have Janis take his place. If that is the case than he should at least match Adam's numbers from a down year with injuries causing him to miss games. So that would mean Janis should top 50 catches and 500 yards. I don't see that happening. He should top the 1 td

 

[HardRightEdge]

Nice numbers. Except for the purposes of this particular throw down the topic is limited to his performance as a receiver on offense, only.

But if you want to start a separate throw down just for the fun of it I'm your Huckleberry.

It was my way of indicating where Janis' primary value lies. Maybe one of those smiley faces would have made the point clearer. I suppose one might call my prediction backhanded with respect to your proposition, but given they hand out two Pro Bowl berths to a special teams guy, I think we can throw Janis' name in ring now that he's established a reputation. I can't help but think Janis is now one of the most feared kick coverage guys in the league, particularly among punt returners.

My comments on Janis' receiving potential are in the following response.

By the way, I would never bet on anybody's numbers due to the injury factor, as illustrated below.

I'm confused, betting lingo isn't my thing.

I'm going 26 catches, 410 yards and 4 TDs for Janis.

Adams- 47 catches 650 yards, 6 touchdowns

While that seems reasonable knowing what we know now, I'll repeat what I said last year at this time, before the Nelson injury, in discussions about the relevance of backup receivers: expecting anybody's top 3 WRs to go 48 for 48 in starts is unreasonable with the backups at some point becoming quite relevant. It was an unhappily prescient observation, with Nelson out all year, Adams among the walking wounded all season, Cobb looking tentative in being limited by injury, and Montgomery sidelined.

While I expect Adams to be an opening day starter, there will be ample opportunities for one or more of the backups to make their cases. The unpredictable degree to which unfortunate injuries come into play makes putting numbers on anybody's production a highly questionable proposition. The unknowns take the proposition outside the bounds of reasonable speculation.

I would make a few observations that perhaps argue against Janis getting increasing snaps, as an injury replacement or otherwise.

(1) The acquisition of Cook is a premeditated attempt to recreate the Finley dynamic, a player who took half his snaps out of the slot or wideout. Before the Cook acquisition, one could argue Rodgers should be pulled in 4-wide sets for one of the WRs working the slot. That's what Cook was signed for, among other things.

(2) The Packers have been in search of a speed/stretch-the-field option for several seasons now, with the Charles Johnson and Jeff Janis 7th round expenditures being the most they've been willing to invest. Myles White is another notable recent name in this category who was a UDFA. I'm sure there were other UDFAs in this category over recent years who never made it to the practice squad whose names we've all forgotten.

The ante was upped with a 5th. round spot going to Trevor Davis with a 4.42 Combine time, in what is surely a "pay more in the hopes of getting more" move. Like Janis, he's fast and comes in with kick return potential, but the comparisons stop there, and I don't mean just physical stature.

Two things Wolf noted about him in the post draft interview: hands and ball-tracking ability. It's worth noting that ball tracking is not something Janis will ever be that good at, and his catch radius on balls that are not lob Hail Mary's has only marginally improved.

Scratching a little further below the surface, Janis has received veiled criticism for his study habits. He may not necessarily be lazy; maybe he's just be one of those guys who has to learn by doing, which is something the NFL has little patience for; maybe coming from MV State he's been like a freshman taking a graduate level class where any learning is by osmosis. It's not just a matter of memorizing a playbook. Most pass routes are to one degree or another an option route. Do you break off the slant at 6 yds. or 8 yds.? That depends on a read of the defenders, and anticipating what the receiver standing next to you is going to read. You can call it "chemistry" with the QB. It's more like doing what a polished NFL receiver is supposed to do. My impression is the preponderance of Rodgers completions to Janis are after he makes his break. He can't be trusted at this point.

I don't think it's mere happenstance that Davis is from Cal, where they run a fairly complicated shotgun pro style offence. The Packers were looking for somebody with transferrable experience with complexity, having lost patience waiting around for 3 years to see if the guy "is or isn't" in filling a specialized role. If Davis doesn't work out, look for the Packers to go higher in the draft until they get this stretch-the-field thing right.

(3) Montgomery is presumably returning from injury for more snaps, though until I hear it said he'll be ready by week 1 I would not bank on it. But since this whole proposition is predicated on the "who, how many, when and for what duration" WRs suffer injuries, we might as well assume no bad news is good news with Montgomery even if that might not be true. He presents yet another option in the WR mix who was absent for the bulk of last season, though I see him as a slot/multi-tool/RB option in the Cobb mold. In any event, he presents a slop option absent last season limiting Janis' possibilities for snaps at that spot.

 

[Sky King]

It's not crickets and not worth a challenge as nobody is rooting against Janis. We all want him to succeed. The difference is that some of us simply think he should show his ability on the field for more than one game before anointing him as Jordy 2.0 as some have.

In any case I allready give money to charity. I don't need a bet to do so.

If you want a stat line for Janis though I'd guess 15 receptions for 220 yards and 2 TDs. Great numbers for the number 6 WR

Yeah, why trust a veteran receiver who has had more than 400 career receptions over a guy whose regular season catches can be counted on a single hand???



I agree with you most of the time but in this case I think the posters elevating Janis to at least a decent starter opposite of Nelson are way too optimistic. It's true the Packers should incorporate him occasionally on deep routes but other than that he hasn't done anything justifying him getting on the field more often.



I already support some charities as well so there's no reason to make a bet like that. My optimistic projection for Janis in 2016 has him haul in 25 passes for 375 yards and 4 TDs.

Just one thing, I don't want you to choise the over or under on thise numbers but come up with your own.

Now we're getting someplace. Once again, let me clarify: This is not a bet. I live in Las Vegas and if I had any desire to place a wager I would not have any trouble doing so locally, 24/7. Betting is not the point.

What I wanted to know was what you really thought Janis may produce this year. That's now been revealed. Your numbers are not in agreement though. I have had numbers in mind, and if it were me setting the line they are what I would have chosen. It will cost you a donation to charity for me to reveal them to you, however.

C'mon fellas! Just about everybody it seems claims that they donate to charity. Maybe somebody can dig up that stat from the IRS. What's one additional modest donation over and above what you already give, especially if it's for a really good cause?

My numbers come at a modest price though: a $50 pledge from each of you to a charity TBD. I'll match them both.

One of you has numbers somewhat close to mine. There's only one way to find out.

 

[Sky King]

I think captains numbers look good but here is the issue there are some here who want to run off Adam's and have Janis take his place. If that is the case than he should at least match Adam's numbers from a down year with injuries causing him to miss games. So that would mean Janis should top 50 catches and 500 yards. I don't see that happening. He should top the 1 td

The point of my throw down was not to create some sort of head to head competition between Janis and Adams. Guys are going to do that, anyway. Only that there be a tie-breaker in the event something caused the Janis numbers to be null and void, such as an unfortunate trip to IR. Since there is so much interest in both players it seemed a natural to choose Adams numbers to serve as the tie-breaker.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

C'mon fellas! Just about everybody it seems claims that they donate to charity. Maybe somebody can dig up that stat from the IRS. What's one additional modest donation over and above what you already give, especially if it's for a really good cause?

My numbers come at a modest price though: a $50 pledge from each of you to a charity TBD. I'll match them both.

With me living in Austria the IRS would most likely have a hard time digging up any information about my charity work.

Count me in on this one, now let's reveal your numbers.

 

[Sky King]

With me living in Austria the IRS would most likely have a hard time digging up any information about my charity work.

Count me in on this one, now let's reveal your numbers.

Great! Let's give RRyder more time to respond one way or the other. If he takes the challenge I'll reveal them in this thread. If not, I'll reveal them to you privately in a PM.

 

[RRyder]

Great! Let's give RRyder more time to respond one way or the other. If he takes the challenge I'll reveal them in this thread. If not, I'll reveal them to you privately in a PM.

Well I just gave 100 dollars to engineers without borders so feel free to make a donation.

Then again I also did it because one of my friends takes part in the program so whether that counts or not is up to you

 

[PackerDNA]

With me living in Austria the IRS would most likely have a hard time digging up any information about my charity work.

Count me in on this one, now let's reveal your numbers.

Just don't answer any knocks on your door.

 

[RRyder]

Still not seeing the point of this agreement. There's no competition or rooting against the player in question. Simply skepticism and a need to see said player do it more than once before we're willing to elevate him out of role player status