Defence vs Offence

[Dantés]

Ah yeah, ok.

Ranked defense in Points Per Game in years players won the Super Bowl. Average rank of the below defensive teams. 6.6 But Yeah, Top QB's are the link. BTW, Eli's defenses in the play offs held teams to under 17 ppg. Which would have placed them 3rd and 4th in DPPG during the regular season. Colts with Payton, during the playoffs they held the other teams to 6, 8, 34, 17 for an average of 16.25 points per game. Like I keep saying, you hold the other team to 17 points or less, you have a great chance of winning. QB doesn't play into much.

Troy Aikman,  2,3
Steve Young  8
Tom Brady  6,1,2,8,11,
Ben Roethlisberger  3,1
Peyton Manning   23,4
Brett Favre  1
Aaron Rodgers  2
Drew Brees  20
Eli Manning   17,25
Kurt Warner  4
Elway   6,8

Maybe you missed where I said that teams that make/win the Super Bowl are just generally good teams (i.e. that you shouldn’t decide that one side of the ball is more important based on one season). You’re arguing against no one and nothing.

Unless, that is, you deny the QB link. In which case you’re just wrong.

 

[Raptorman]

Maybe you missed where I said that teams that make/win the Super Bowl are just generally good teams (i.e. that you shouldn’t decide that one side of the ball is more important based on one season). You’re arguing against no one and nothing.

Unless, that is, you deny the QB link. In which case you’re just wrong.

Pats are 13-6 without Brady playing in the last 10 years. What's the Packers record without Rodgers the last 10 years? And what's the Packers defensive rank in PPG in those years? Yes, both sides are important. But I you want to make it to the big game, Offense alone won't do it. It's easier to make it with a lower ranking offense than a lower ranking defense.

 

[Mondio]

Pats are 13-6 without Brady playing in the last 10 years. What's the Packers record without Rodgers the last 10 years? And what's the Packers defensive rank in PPG in those years? Yes, both sides are important. But I you want to make it to the big game, Offense alone won't do it. It's easier to make it with a lower ranking offense than a lower ranking defense.

How many big games have they played in without Brady? What's the record of the teams played without Brady they've beaten?

Vikings have a had a good defense for a while, playoff record? And it would still be 0- and whatever under Zimmer if not for one of the wildest finishes in NFL history and it had nothing to do with heir defense. And if Rodgers doesn't go down, MN isnprobably a 6 seed lol

 

[Dantés]

Pats are 13-6 without Brady playing in the last 10 years. What's the Packers record without Rodgers the last 10 years? And what's the Packers defensive rank in PPG in those years? Yes, both sides are important. But I you want to make it to the big game, Offense alone won't do it. It's easier to make it with a lower ranking offense than a lower ranking defense.

Again, you’re arguing against something that was not said.

I’ll reiterate for you, if that helps.

Every year, fans/media look at the hot teams that make deep runs and try to posit a new fool-proof strategy based on those teams. When the Hawks won, it was all about how you need your QB on a rookie deal. When the Broncos won, it was that you have to just pour all the resources into the defense with heavy FA usage. When the Pats won it’s all about how you have to sell your soul to the devil. When Kaepernick and Cam were having success it was about the era of the running QB, blah blah blah. People take one thing that’s successful and act like it is now THE thing if you want to be successful.

So what I said was that it’s misguided to take one year and decide that there’s a new formula. The final four this year favors the defense. The final four last year favored the offense. The reality is that you have to be really good to make a run and win it all, and it can be done by teams that skew more heavily offensively and who skew more heavily defensively. Nowhere did I say that offense is all that matters or that defense doesn’t matter.

 

[Raptorman]

How many big games have they played in without Brady? What's the record of the teams played without Brady they've beaten?

Vikings have a had a good defense for a while, playoff record? And it would still be 0- and whatever under Zimmer if not for one of the wildest finishes in NFL history and it had nothing to do with heir defense. And if Rodgers doesn't go down, MN isnprobably a 6 seed lol

Packer defense was an 8-8 defense this year. Rodges may have given them 2-3 more wins. Fact is, no QB with a cap hit of over $20 million has ever won a Super Bowl.

 

[Dantés]

Packer defense was an 8-8 defense this year. Rodges may have given them 2-3 more wins. Fact is, no QB with a cap hit of over $20 million has ever won a Super Bowl.

And how long have such cap hits existed for QB’s?

 

[Raptorman]

Again, you’re arguing against something that was not said.

I’ll reiterate for you, if that helps.

Every year, fans/media look at the hot teams that make deep runs and try to posit a new fool-proof strategy based on those teams. When the Hawks won, it was all about how you need your QB on a rookie deal. When the Broncos won, it was that you have to just pour all the resources into the defense with heavy FA usage. When the Pats won it’s all about how you have to sell your soul to the devil. When Kaepernick and Cam were having success it was about the era of the running QB, blah blah blah. People take one thing that’s successful and act like it is now THE thing if you want to be successful.

So what I said was that it’s misguided to take one year and decide that there’s a new formula. The final four this year favors the defense. The final four last year favored the offense. The reality is that you have to be really good to make a run and win it all, and it can be done by teams that skew more heavily offensively and who skew more heavily defensively. Nowhere did I say that offense is all that matters or that defense doesn’t matter.

And you have been totally ignoring what I said. A good top 10 defense with a good QB that doesn't make stupid mistakes keeping the offense in the top 12 or so. Last year the Pats and Steelers D were ranked 1 and 2, The Packers and Falcons ranked 21 and 27. There is no new formula. You want the formula? Look at New England the last 17 years. Brady is not the QB everyone makes him out to be. He's a good QB playing in a good system that has a good defense, year in and year out. Out of the last 4 QB's in the playoff this year, do you know which one has had the best last 6 games? It's not Brady.

 

[Mondio]

What was the record of bradyless patriot victories compared to a rodgerless Packers.

Also a fact, 2 of those victories would have been against the Vikings lol

I must've missed it where the Vikings defense won the game for them yesterday.

 

[Dantés]

And you have been totally ignoring what I said. A good top 10 defense with a good QB that doesn't make stupid mistakes keeping the offense in the top 12 or so. Last year the Pats and Steelers D were ranked 1 and 2, The Packers and Falcons ranked 21 and 27. There is no new formula. You want the formula? Look at New England the last 17 years. Brady is not the QB everyone makes him out to be. He's a good QB playing in a good system that has a good defense, year in and year out. Out of the last 4 QB's in the playoff this year, do you know which one has had the best last 6 games? It's not Brady.

I’ve been ignoring what you’re saying because, as far as I can tell, you’re saying that defense is important to being able to win a championship. Again, I never said otherwise.

Now if you’re saying that Brady is not really that important to New England’s playoff success, then I am not so much ignoring you as much as saying you’re full of purple ********.

 

[adambr2]

There was 140 points scored in 2 games yesterday and here we are talking about how important defense was.

 

[rmontro]

Now the down side with having an elite defense, how long can you keep all those guys on your team?

I agree with bigbubbatd that it's best to have both - the all pro QB and the top 10 defense - most Super Bowl winners have had both, amazing as it might seem.
The Packers have never won a Super Bowl without both.

As you say, Poker, the QB will grant you the longevity of success, whereas it's hard to keep an elite defense together, especially in the salary cap era.

 

[OldSchool101]

It can work both ways.
GB could win a SB with an above average D because of a one Aaron Rodgers. He’s THE exception to the rule.
In Mid 2014 we moved CM3 inside and our Defense was ranked low 20’s in Points given up per game. I predicted we would need at minimum a top 1/3rd (roughly #11 or better ranked scoring D) to make or win a SB. We improved markedly and finished at #14 scoring after moving CM3 inside. To move the ranking that much in 8 games means we played top 10 most weeks. We hammered Seattle the first half and eventually forced 5 INTs by Russell Wilson and Seattle had no business winning that NFC Chanpionship game.
Our weekness? ST.
The game was lost by GB ST because a simple missed blocking assignment by Bostick would’ve nailed the coffin 100% no questions asked.
It still takes a team effort. Cowboys legend Drew Pearson made a point on the news tonight as I typed this and it was no coincidence. He was known for the Staubach catch Hail Mary against the Vikings. He said it was more than just 2 guys that caused that play and won that game. He said 100 different elements had to happen in order for that play (the play during the Divisional in 1975 was very, very similar to Diggs) but he explained how Diggs and Keemun will go down in history forever with the credit. He knows because he’s been on the winning end.
Listening to Pearson made me change my mind last second. It takes all 3 phases of team to win and giving one phase most of the credit is a false misinterpretation of that fact that it takes balanced teams and a lot of heart to win.
My closing statement of proof:
Had GB had a top ranked SPecial Teams unit in 2014? I’m very confident we would’ve won the Super Bowl.

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[Raptorman]

I agree with bigbubbatd that it's best to have both - the all pro QB and the top 10 defense - most Super Bowl winners have had both, amazing as it might seem.
The Packers have never won a Super Bowl without both.

As you say, Poker, the QB will grant you the longevity of success, whereas it's hard to keep an elite defense together, especially in the salary cap era.

Explain New England defense then. They have been a top 10 defense for the most part of 17 years.

 

[Dantés]

Explain New England defense then. They have been a top 10 defense for the most part of 17 years.

His name is Bill Belichick. His ability to mold his defense to the available talent and get the most out of them is unparalleled. It’s also not the norm. Defenses definitely go on runs, but not like that.

 

[Mondio]

Exceptions don't explain rules. and NE has a knack for performing in big games. They are an anomoly. They also get to play the Bills, the Jets, Miami etc. And get to play teams like the Texans last year and TN this year. That goes a long ways in securing a good defensive ranking when half of your season or better is guaranteed every year to be against poor offensive teams. Toss in a coach that seems to be ahead of everyone else and adjusts his schemes well in game and toss in a little luck, like the Falcons completely imploding last year and things are looking rosey over there.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I get the dislike for the Patriots, but let's face it, they are a well managed, well coached team and that credit goes mostly to Belichick. I would love to see a list of all the moves he has made during the course of the season to try and improve his team. Just recently he signed a potential FHOF 39 year old linebacker, James Harrison, the cost to his team, $58,824.

 

[XPack]

As you say, Poker, the QB will grant you the longevity of success, whereas it's hard to keep an elite defense together, especially in the salary cap era.

I don't think you need a elite QB to get into playoffs for a long time. A decent QB should suffice paired with a good defence. We've been riding of AR12 to paper over the shambles the defence has been since the SB.

Going by historical %s, a elite defence with a decent QB has a better chance to win the SB than a elite QB with a decent defence.

 

[Mondio]

I get the dislike for the Patriots, but let's face it, they are a well managed, well coached team and that credit goes mostly to Belichick. I would love to see a list of all the moves he has made during the course of the season to try and improve his team. Just recently he signed a potential FHOF 39 year old linebacker, James Harrison, the cost to his team, $58,824.

3 players that quit on their current teams to join the patriots later in the season, I hope Karma strikes them down hard. I've liked the Pats ever since they beat the Rams way back when they were the greatest show on turf. Loved the way the went about their business. I still respect a lot of what goes on there, but this sort of stuff bothers me.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

There was 140 points scored in 2 games yesterday and here we are talking about how important defense was.

Hey! Don't ruin the discussion with facts! People are entrenched on their side at this point and being wrong or right has nothing to do with it! The point is just to shout louder about what you believe (whether right or wrong) and ignore people that disagree and embrace people that agree. It's way easier to believe a comfortable untruth than admit you might be wrong and change your mind.

(whispers quietly) what was the final score of the Super Bowl last year again? Pretty sure Falcons were 27th in points against last year.

 

[XPack]

There was 140 points scored in 2 games yesterday and here we are talking about how important defense was.

And the team with better D won both those games!

 

[Dantés]

Packer defense was an 8-8 defense this year. Rodges may have given them 2-3 more wins. Fact is, no QB with a cap hit of over $20 million has ever won a Super Bowl.

Not seeing an answer, I looked into this. As best as I can tell picking through the cap tables for various teams, prior to this season there have only ever been five 20+M$ cap hits for QB's.

So essentially your point reduces to: Matthew Stafford, Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco, Ben Roethlisberger, and Eli Manning did not lead their clubs to a Super Bowl in 2016. As if that whopping data set is supposed to mean something.

 

[n4t]

I still think a discussion about Fences of differing heights would be more interesting than this.

There are no magic beans.

 

[rmontro]

Of the other 3, one was won by Joe Flacco who was playing out of his mind.

There have also been cases of non-top 10 defenses getting hot and playing well come playoff time also. Fact is there are relatively few examples of both non-elite QBs and non-elite defenses winning the Super Bowl. And when the exceptions have won, they were often peaking at just the right time..

There was 140 points scored in 2 games yesterday and here we are talking about how important defense was.

And those defenses made a lot of plays that helped their teams win. And who won the Super Bowl last year? The team with the #1 defense (NE).

 

[Jerellh528]

Rodgers + a top 10 overall(yards n pts) defense = Super Bowl. Rodgers is that good.

 

[rmontro]

Rodgers + a top 10 overall(yards n pts) defense = Super Bowl. Rodgers is that good.

Hopefully he'll get a chance to prove it.