Datone Jones

[easyk83]

It's very disappointing. I remember when we took him, he's the guy I wanted, and I remember jumping up when we took him in excitement. I had extremely high hopes for him and now he looks to be another Ted 1st Rd disappointment.

Another? Datone was a need pick, and need picks at the bottom of the first rarely turn out well. That being said he's a smart player and a natural athlete outside, we might have something with him out there. Datone's struggles have been from him playing inside where he never really looked that good.

 

[easyk83]

Uhh, DL is the deepest position in this coming draft, not LB.

Which is good because we could use some help. The team likes Mike Pennell but he'll be gone for four games next season. They also like Christian Ringo who reminded them of Mike Daniels and Boyd is a solid player.

Daniels
Boyd
Guion
Ringo

Not a lot of beef up front without Pennel. Even with Pennel we could use some depth.

 

[Patriotplayer90]

McCarthy has been pretty adamant about moving Matthews back outside this offseason. It´s for sure not ideal to start Barrington and Ryan inside so I´m still holding out hope Thompson will finally address the position adequately either with one of the remaining free agents or in the draft.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...

 

[Ace]

Another? Datone was a need pick, and need picks at the bottom of the first rarely turn out well.

Is there factual evidence to back this up? I'm just curious and I don't really want to go and look myself. You seem to be pretty confident though.

 

[easyk83]

Is there factual evidence to back this up? I'm just curious and I don't really want to go and look myself. You seem to be pretty confident though.

The common wisdom was that we needed a prototype 34 DE, someone with the length to play end and bulk to play inside, a hybrid player if you will. Jones was the closest player to that description.

As for Need type picks at the bottom of the first, Bulaga Sherrod Aaron Taylor John Michaels among others. IMHO if you're picking between 20-32 it's best to pick a high upside flyer type or swing more towards the BPA portion of the BVA spectrum. Someone who has fallen to the bottom of the first round because of marks against him like being Ted Tedford product or a white receiver or a guy who has barely started but seems to be on the upswing.

We didn't need Rodgers when we picked him nor did we need Nelson when we picked him. Id also argue Matthews didn't look like a need pick given that everyone thought he was too raw to go that high but TT thought he was special.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

The common wisdom was that we needed a prototype 34 DE, someone with the length to play end and bulk to play inside, a hybrid player if you will. Jones was the closest player to that description.

As for Need type picks at the bottom of the first, Bulaga Sherrod Aaron Taylor John Michaels among others. IMHO if you're picking between 20-32 it's best to pick a high upside flyer type or swing more towards the BPA portion of the BVA spectrum. Someone who has fallen to the bottom of the first round because of marks against him like being Ted Tedford product or a white receiver or a guy who has barely started but seems to be on the upswing.

We didn't need Rodgers when we picked him nor did we need Nelson when we picked him. Id also argue Matthews didn't look like a need pick given that everyone thought he was too raw to go that high but TT thought he was special.

Most of the time there isn't a clear-cut best player available though and need factors into a selection. Rodgers was the rare exemption of a player a tier above everybody else left on the Packers board.

 

[Favre>Rodgers259]

I don't necessarily believe in that analysis. There are nearly 250 players selected in the Draft and you're telling there are only 32 1st Round grades? There are always players, like Randall or Matthews who could have gone into the 2nd but easily picked up in the 1st.

I feel like you either draft BPA or you draft based on need; but rarely can you do both. Sometimes during the Draft you can't stick to one route however and have to know when it's time to switch based on the what's going on. 2013 was an ABYSMAL year for DL and instead of TT going, "Well we need a DE and he's the best one on the board" he should have switched off and boosted the team in other ways. Here are a couple players who went shortly after Jones at 26th:

DeAndre Hopkins 27th Overall (We've drafted 6 WRs since 2013.....safe to say with Hopkins that never would have been necessary)

Travis Fredrick 31st Overall (Jerry was blasted for the pick but look who's laughing now)

Manti Te'o 38th Overall (Safe to say we wouldn't be looking for a ILB right now)

Kiko Alonso 48th Overall (Even better than Te'o)

Le'Veon Bell 50th Overall (Mostly fantasizing but can you imagine a Bell/Lacy 1-2 punch?)

 

[Vrill]

Another? Datone was a need pick, and need picks at the bottom of the first rarely turn out well. That being said he's a smart player and a natural athlete outside, we might have something with him out there. Datone's struggles have been from him playing inside where he never really looked that good.

"rarely turn out well" - hmm, really? That is totally false by the way. If that's the case, then players drafted in rounds 2-7 REALLY don't turn out well.

You and me both know that's not true.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I don't necessarily believe in that analysis. There are nearly 250 players selected in the Draft and you're telling there are only 32 1st Round grades? There are always players, like Randall or Matthews who could have gone into the 2nd but easily picked up in the 1st.

I feel like you either draft BPA or you draft based on need; but rarely can you do both. Sometimes during the Draft you can't stick to one route however and have to know when it's time to switch based on the what's going on.

Sometimes the Packers have even less than 32 players rated above the first-round line. In 2005 they had approximately 20 prospects ranked that way and by the time the team was on the clock Rodgers was the only one left above it.

Read Andrew Brandt's story about it, who was the Packers vice president at the time.

http://mmqb.si.com/2014/05/07/nfl-draft-war-rooms

Teams categorize all draftees available in different tiers and within those position of need is a factor when making a selection. Drafting the best player available regardless of his position only occurs if only one player from the top tier is left on the board.

2013 was an ABYSMAL year for DL and instead of TT going, "Well we need a DE and he's the best one on the board" he should have switched off and boosted the team in other ways. Here are a couple players who went shortly after Jones at 26th:

Manti Te'o 38th Overall (Safe to say we wouldn't be looking for a ILB right now)

Kiko Alonso 48th Overall (Even better than Te'o)

Both Alonso and Te'o were even worth than the Packers inside linebackers last season.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Getting back to the OP, wasn't this already a fact since around week 7 of last season?

- Capers said last season that he prefers Jones working against OTs.

- Jones took more than twice as many snaps at OLB than DE last season, with the DE snaps coming primarily in the early season.

- In the back half of the season, his role was primarily OLB with some dime 3-tech work.

- We call Peppers an OLB, though he takes some snaps at 3-tech. Jones has been sharing that profile. Isn't the "revelation" that Jones will play OLB in the elephant mode, as with Peppers, already been an established fact for more than half of a season?

- Speaking of sharing the Peppers profile, how often do you seem him drop in coverage? An occasional short zone drop, and that's about it. OLBs in this defense are rarely called upon to cover downfield. As in most 3-4 defenses, Capers' OLBs resemble 4-3 DEs a lot more than 4-3 OLBs in terms of responsibilities, and with Peppers and Neal playing the position, the Packers have fielded OLBs with length and uncharacteristic size, qualities Jones shares. They edge rush and run contain. They don't have to be fast, but you want them to be quick.

This isn't to say Jones is the new Peppers...simply that he fits the profile. Peppers, Jones and Perry will be FAs after this season. There's a good chance 2 out of 3 will be gone, and I would not rule out Jones being one of them.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Getting back to the OP, wasn't this already a fact since around week 7 of last season?

As I've posted earlier in the thread, according to Bob McGinn Datone played more snaps at outside linebacker (163) than defensive end (149) over the second half of last season.

 

[Ace]

The common wisdom was that we needed a prototype 34 DE, someone with the length to play end and bulk to play inside, a hybrid player if you will. Jones was the closest player to that description.

As for Need type picks at the bottom of the first, Bulaga Sherrod Aaron Taylor John Michaels among others. IMHO if you're picking between 20-32 it's best to pick a high upside flyer type or swing more towards the BPA portion of the BVA spectrum. Someone who has fallen to the bottom of the first round because of marks against him like being Ted Tedford product or a white receiver or a guy who has barely started but seems to be on the upswing.

We didn't need Rodgers when we picked him nor did we need Nelson when we picked him. Id also argue Matthews didn't look like a need pick given that everyone thought he was too raw to go that high but TT thought he was special.

So no then.

 

[Patriotplayer90]

Getting back to the OP, wasn't this already a fact since around week 7 of last season?

- Capers said last season that he prefers Jones working against OTs.

- Jones took more than twice as many snaps at OLB than DE last season, with the DE snaps coming primarily in the early season.

- In the back half of the season, his role was primarily OLB with some dime 3-tech work.

- We call Peppers an OLB, though he takes some snaps at 3-tech. Jones has been sharing that profile. Isn't the "revelation" that Jones will play OLB in the elephant mode, as with Peppers, already been an established fact for more than half of a season?

- Speaking of sharing the Peppers profile, how often do you seem him drop in coverage? An occasional short zone drop, and that's about it. OLBs in this defense are rarely called upon to cover downfield. As in most 3-4 defenses, Capers' OLBs resemble 4-3 DEs a lot more than 4-3 OLBs in terms of responsibilities, and with Peppers and Neal playing the position, the Packers have fielded OLBs with length and uncharacteristic size, qualities Jones shares. They edge rush and run contain. They don't have to be fast, but you want them to be quick.

This isn't to say Jones is the new Peppers...simply that he fits the profile. Peppers, Jones and Perry will be FAs after this season. There's a good chance 2 out of 3 will be gone, and I would not rule out Jones being one of them.

The only revelation is the fact that anyone really cares. He's an average rotational player.

 

[PackerDNA]

We have another 'experiment' in progress. After 3 seasons, it's been decided that a DE drafted in the 1st round will (hopefully) transform into an OLB.
Devil's Advocate asks;
A) what does this say for Jones?
B) what does this say for the team's OLB's as a group?

 

[HardRightEdge]

As I've posted earlier in the thread, according to Bob McGinn Datone played more snaps at outside linebacker (163) than defensive end (149) over the second half of last season.

Sometimes one does not read every post. That said, as one who regularly cites PFF in support of a position, you might appreciate this:

"According to data provided courtesy of Pro Football Focus, Jones played 156 snaps at outside linebacker during the final 10 games (including playoffs). Compare that to a total of 88 snaps at defensive end for the entire 18-game season. After averaging 19.0 snaps per game to start the season, Jones' playing time increased to 29.8 snaps per game for the final 10 games."

http://cheeseheadtv.com/blog/mccarthy-datone-jones-moving-outside

I suppose I misspoke in "saying more than double" instead of "nearly double" the number of OLB snaps over DE snaps based on PFF data, but that would be splitting hairs.

So who's right, McGinn or PFF? I don't think it matters, because from mid-season on the position change was in progress with declining DE snaps and increasing OLB snaps, with total snaps on the rise.

 

[HardRightEdge]

The only revelation is the fact that anyone really cares. He's an average rotational player.

I think in the end "average rotational player" is where he'll be at season's end, but that is not a certainty.

Why do we care? Because unlike the starter-oriented fantasy players, or ESPN and the NFL network where seemingly 90% of the draft coverage is devoted to rehashing ad nauseam the possible first round picks and QBs, many of the devoted Packer fans you'll find here don't leave many corners of the roster and it's needs unturned.

If Peppers is injured, we will certainly care quite a bit where and how he plays. And with Peppers, Perry and Jones in contract years, by this time next year we may be caring quite a bit where and how he played in 2016.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

We have another 'experiment' in progress. After 3 seasons, it's been decided that a DE drafted in the 1st round will (hopefully) transform into an OLB.
Devil's Advocate asks;
A) what does this say for Jones?
B) what does this say for the team's OLB's as a group?

It means that Jones has been more effective rushing the passer than defending the run. It doesn't say a whole lot about the team's OLB position but rather Thompson and the coaching staff not wanting to give up on a first-round pick after three seasons.

 

[Sky King]

Back when Jones was drafted Vic Ketchman's draft guru, Tony Pauline, related to Vic at the time that it would take some time for Jones to evolve into the player that the Packers intended him to be. He was a good athlete being asked to assume a role outside of his more familiar comfort zone. Same with Perry when he was drafted and also with others of less renown coming out of college (Zombo, Mulumba, Palmer, etc.). They also moved Aaron Kampman to OLB with the conversion to the 3-4. Perry flashed some near the tail-end of last season. Maybe it's finally time for both he and Jones to fully blossom. I hope so.

 

[PackerDNA]

Back when Jones was drafted Vic Ketchman's draft guru, Tony Pauline, related to Vic at the time that it would take some time for Jones to evolve into the player that the Packers intended him to be. He was a good athlete being asked to assume a role outside of his more familiar comfort zone. Same with Perry when he was drafted and also with others of less renown coming out of college (Zombo, Mulumba, Palmer, etc.). They also moved Aaron Kampman to OLB with the conversion to the 3-4. Perry flashed some near the tail-end of last season. Maybe it's finally time for both he and Jones to fully blossom. I hope so.

Maybe it's past time. Again, change moves like a glacier at 1265. Make the roster one or two seasons here, and you've pretty much got tenure.

 

[Pkrjones]

Year 3 should be when a guy either takes-off as a bonafide player/play maker and TT starts thinking about an extension or becomes "just a guy", in which case he plays out his contract and moves on. I don't disagree that if through 3 years & Jones still hasn't stepped-up that you try to get something, anything out of him... but unfortunately I think he's "just a guy"

 

[Favre>Rodgers259]

If that's truly the case then TT is even more to blame. He's taking gambles with 1st Round picks, just like he did with Justin Harrell. If you need a 3-4 OLB than draft a 3-4 OLB, if you need a 4-3 OLB than do so. I can't stand it when GMs roll the dice on that, especially like I pointed out a horrible year for DL in 2013.

I can't stand Capers for switching to 3-4 either. If we were 4-3 we wouldn't have the same problems we have now. We'd need a DT and then you could choose between a DE/ILB. With the right combination the front seven would be sown up, instead we've got possibly 5 holes instead of 3.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

If that's truly the case then TT is even more to blame. He's taking gambles with 1st Round picks, just like he did with Justin Harrell. If you need a 3-4 OLB than draft a 3-4 OLB, if you need a 4-3 OLB than do so. I can't stand it when GMs roll the dice on that, especially like I pointed out a horrible year for DL in 2013.

While more and more college teams have adopted a 3-4 defense over the last few years the majority still plays with four down linemen. That results in a lot of 3-4 outside linebacker prospects in the draft have played defensive end in a 4-3 in college.

I can't stand Capers for switching to 3-4 either. If we were 4-3 we wouldn't have the same problems we have now. We'd need a DT and then you could choose between a DE/ILB. With the right combination the front seven would be sown up, instead we've got possibly 5 holes instead of 3.

Capers has used a 3-4 defense for all of his NFL career, so if you want to blame someone for switching to it in 2009 you have to do it with McCarthy as he was the one hiring Capers.

Actually the scheme doesn't matter that much, it takes 11 good players to have an elite defense in both alignments.

 

[Favre>Rodgers259]

A 3-4 puts more responsibility on the defensive front. As a Nickleback/Strong Safety myself I can't stand 3-4 fronts. Every one has to be an athlete; and a good one at that. The only exception is the NT who needs to be 300-350 lbs and/or demand double teams every down. We don't have those type of players at every single position in the front 7. In my opinion, we only have 2 out of 7; possibly a 3rd if Barrington shakes out and maybe a 4th depending on what gamble TT takes again this year.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

A 3-4 puts more responsibility on the defensive front. As a Nickleback/Strong Safety myself I can't stand 3-4 fronts. Every one has to be an athlete; and a good one at that. The only exception is the NT who needs to be 300-350 lbs and/or demand double teams every down. We don't have those type of players at every single position in the front 7. In my opinion, we only have 2 out of 7; possibly a 3rd if Barrington shakes out and maybe a 4th depending on what gamble TT takes again this year.

First of all the Packers only used their base defense on 17.7% of the snaps. While some positions in a 3-4 defense require a lot of athleticism that's not true for all of it.

 

[Poppa San]

... In my opinion, we only have 2 out of 7; possibly a 3rd if Barrington shakes out ..

No love for Peppers? Or is it Daniels? Or Matthews?