Currently 18.6 mil cap space??? Still?

Dantés

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I don't really have a problem with it either but it doesn't make me think very highly of him if it hampers the team. Then when they come along and start talking about how its a team game I just tune them out because it sure wasn't when you were negotiating your contract, then it was all about you ... Excuse me, it was all about YOUR FAMILY.

How do you define "hamper the team?"

One thing that I generally object to is the tendency to blame he player and absolve the organization.

Like last year, when that Joey Bosa holdout was going on, 90% of Chargers fans blamed Bosa, even though his "ask" was totally fair. Very few were willing to criticize the FO for being cheap.
 

elcid

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At some point you can argue whether the extra 3 or 4 mill is going to improve your life (or your feeling of being respected for that matter) that much more then it would increase your chances of getting to the SB by lessening your demands. Surely Bosa is a completely different situation than our franchise qb when we are talking about tens of millions of dollars per season. Bosa just wanted a contract similar to other 3rd overall picks, which is only fair (plus a contract of his size would not put the Chargers in jeopardy of getting to the SB). Aaron would want to be paid the most, yet when you are already earning 20M a season, then what is 24M going to do more for you? Thats why I love Brady, the guy doesn't care about being respected by the size of his paycheck, but by the amount of rings he has on his fingers. If Aaron truly did too he would not demand the fattest contract on the market this coming offseason while he knows this team struggles to retain some of its best FAs every year and is (still) with some huge holes left in the defense. But this is just speculating that he wants to become the highest-paid player, only time will tell. If he does it will only demonstrate what we already know - Its all about the $
 
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At some point you can argue whether the extra 3 or 4 mill is going to improve your life (or your feeling of being respected for that matter) that much more then it would increase your chances of getting to the SB by lessening your demands. Surely Bosa is a completely different situation than our franchise qb when we are talking about tens of millions of dollars per season. Bosa just wanted a contract similar to other 3rd overall picks, which is only fair (plus a contract of his size would not put the Chargers in jeopardy of getting to the SB). Aaron would want to be paid the most, yet when you are already earning 20M a season, then what is 24M going to do more for you? Thats why I love Brady, the guy doesn't care about being respected by the size of his paycheck, but by the amount of rings he has on his fingers. If Aaron truly did too he would not demand the fattest contract on the market this coming offseason while he knows this team struggles to retain some of its best FAs every year and is (still) with some huge holes left in the defense. But this is just speculating that he wants to become the highest-paid player, only time will tell. If he does it will only demonstrate what we already know - Its all about the $

While the general perception is that Brady has relinquished a lot of money over the past few seasons to allow the Patriots to spend on other positions that isn't true by any means. Including the 2017 season he has been paid more cash ($106.5 million) since the Packers won the Super Bowl than Rodgers ($103.3 million) but Belichick has found a way to structure the contract in a team friendly way.
 

Dantés

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At some point you can argue whether the extra 3 or 4 mill is going to improve your life (or your feeling of being respected for that matter) that much more then it would increase your chances of getting to the SB by lessening your demands. Surely Bosa is a completely different situation than our franchise qb when we are talking about tens of millions of dollars per season. Bosa just wanted a contract similar to other 3rd overall picks, which is only fair (plus a contract of his size would not put the Chargers in jeopardy of getting to the SB). Aaron would want to be paid the most, yet when you are already earning 20M a season, then what is 24M going to do more for you? Thats why I love Brady, the guy doesn't care about being respected by the size of his paycheck, but by the amount of rings he has on his fingers. If Aaron truly did too he would not demand the fattest contract on the market this coming offseason while he knows this team struggles to retain some of its best FAs every year and is (still) with some huge holes left in the defense. But this is just speculating that he wants to become the highest-paid player, only time will tell. If he does it will only demonstrate what we already know - Its all about the $

You say it's only fair that Bosa asked for what is normal for 3rd overall picks. Why would it not be only fair for Rodgers to ask for what is normal for a top 3 quarterback? I can see balking if he asked for something outrageous and wouldn't budge, but most likely he's simply going to ask for what the market has now set for his level and position. He would just be doing what virtually everyone else in the league does. They are not fans. This is their business.
 

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You say it's only fair that Bosa asked for what is normal for 3rd overall picks. Why would it not be only fair for Rodgers to ask for what is normal for a top 3 quarterback? I can see balking if he asked for something outrageous and wouldn't budge, but most likely he's simply going to ask for what the market has now set for his level and position. He would just be doing what virtually everyone else in the league does. They are not fans. This is their business.
Looking at Rodger's case specifically, he was given I believe a 7 year extension which included 54 Million in guaranteed money. I understand that he wants to be the highest paid and certainly has earned top 5 status in compensation. Rodgers however should not be offended or surprised however that his compensation has been exceeded, and I'm sure he's not. Long term contracts and extensions have a trade off in potentially slightly lower overall payout for the long term security that $54M provides years earlier. That being said, I would not be against the Packers bumping him up 20-25% as long as it is very team friendly and Rodgers and his agent should expect and respect that type of offer as well.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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I have never worried about a guy being "underpaid" after signing a long term contract like AR did. Often times we see the opposite situation, a team is stuck in a long term contract that a player isn't performing up to (Matthews and Cobb). Its part of the risk on both sides of contracts.

Aaron agreed to and was paid and guaranteed ($54 M) a substantial sum of money at the time he signed his contract. He very well could have gotten hurt, lost interest, etc and underperformed his contact along the way. He didn't and now he is being "underpaid" in comparison to other NFL players (4 years after AR locked in). I do understand wanting to keep AR happy as well as understanding of just how valuable he is to the Packers, but I hope that AR also understands that this is business and his teammates (Clay and Randall) can attest to the other side of a contract that didn't work out as well for the Packers. If and when the Packers redo AR's contract, part of the risk that they absorbed in the initial contract as well as in any new contract going forward, should be considered. Basically meaning, I don't think you just "tear up AR's current contract and pay him like he was a FA."
 

Dantés

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I have never worried about a guy being "underpaid" after signing a long term contract like AR did. Often times we see the opposite situation, a team is stuck in a long term contract that a player isn't performing up to (Matthews and Cobb). Its part of the risk on both sides of contracts.

Aaron agreed to and was paid and guaranteed ($54 M) a substantial sum of money at the time he signed his contract. He very well could have gotten hurt, lost interest, etc and underperformed his contact along the way. He didn't and now he is being "underpaid" in comparison to other NFL players (4 years after AR locked in). I do understand wanting to keep AR happy as well as understanding of just how valuable he is to the Packers, but I hope that AR also understands that this is business and his teammates (Clay and Randall) can attest to the other side of a contract that didn't work out as well for the Packers. If and when the Packers redo AR's contract, part of the risk that they absorbed in the initial contract as well as in any new contract going forward, should be considered. Basically meaning, I don't think you just "tear up AR's current contract and pay him like he was a FA."

Certainly long term deals have pros and cons for both sides. And I'm not saying that Rodgers should get a raise every year, regardless of the long term he is currently under. But as he needs an extension soon anyhow, I have no problem with him asking for that new deal to reimburse him according to his worth. The expectation that he should give a substantial discount to the Packers so the sake of a competitive advantage is what I'm criticizing. That's what fans often imagine that they would do in that position, but they almost never apply the same thinking to their own livelihoods.

But I do think that fans are often too ******* players holding out even when they're under contract. Teams can often cut players early with little to no consequence. They don't have to honor the deal that's signed outside of the guarantees. So I don't see why players should be expected to honor what they sign either. It would seem that, by the same logic, fans should be incensed when an older player has declined and is cut early.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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Certainly long term deals have pros and cons for both sides. And I'm not saying that Rodgers should get a raise every year, regardless of the long term he is currently under. But as he needs an extension soon anyhow, I have no problem with him asking for that new deal to reimburse him according to his worth. The expectation that he should give a substantial discount to the Packers so the sake of a competitive advantage is what I'm criticizing. That's what fans often imagine that they would do in that position, but they almost never apply the same thinking to their own livelihoods.

But I do think that fans are often too ******* players holding out even when they're under contract. Teams can often cut players early with little to no consequence. They don't have to honor the deal that's signed outside of the guarantees. So I don't see why players should be expected to honor what they sign either. It would seem that, by the same logic, fans should be incensed when an older player has declined and is cut early.

For the most part I agree with you, what I was referring to was the fact that Aaron is still under contract for 3 more years. This amount that he agreed to play for, until the end of 2019, should be taken into consideration with a new contract IMO. The same situation would apply to Clay Matthews. If the Packers decided they wanted to extend his current contract (doubtful), they should keep in mind the money they agreed to pay him for the next 2 years. I'm not saying either AR or CM's contracts should be completely watered down or fully padded due to those previous contracts, but they should be factored in.

I also get what you are saying by it appears that a team is at a bigger advantage in regards to contracts and releasing players, but the power is really still in the player's hands, play well and you get paid well. Sign the contract or don't sign the contract. Ask for incentives or don't. A player at some point is going to get paid (or not) based on the market and more importantly, their previous year(s) performance. Without heavily based incentive contracts, it's up to the team to roll the dice on just how valuable they think that player will be in the future. Seems like more often, players tend to get over paid on their 2nd and 3rd contracts. The guys on rookie contracts IMO are probably the most often underpaid guys, since the players who don't do much are released without much of a financial hit to the team, but those who are successful, have to wait until that second contract to cash in on their value to the team.
 

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Certainly long term deals have pros and cons for both sides. And I'm not saying that Rodgers should get a raise every year, regardless of the long term he is currently under. But as he needs an extension soon anyhow, I have no problem with him asking for that new deal to reimburse him according to his worth. The expectation that he should give a substantial discount to the Packers so the sake of a competitive advantage is what I'm criticizing. That's what fans often imagine that they would do in that position, but they almost never apply the same thinking to their own livelihoods.

But I do think that fans are often too ******* players holding out even when they're under contract. Teams can often cut players early with little to no consequence. They don't have to honor the deal that's signed outside of the guarantees. So I don't see why players should be expected to honor what they sign either. It would seem that, by the same logic, fans should be incensed when an older player has declined and is cut early.
I disagree totally with your second paragraph and the premise you have put forth. The only money guaranteed in a contract is that which is specifically put in the contract as up front signing bonus. The rest is subject to the player maintaining his roster spot which is decided by the employer. I fully expect the player to honor the terms of his contract just like I expect the team to honor the salary and other time specific bonuses by paying the player in a timely fashion. Imo, when a player holds out, he is in breach of contract.
 

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But I do think that fans are often too ******* players holding out even when they're under contract. Teams can often cut players early with little to no consequence. They don't have to honor the deal that's signed outside of the guarantees. So I don't see why players should be expected to honor what they sign either. It would seem that, by the same logic, fans should be incensed when an older player has declined and is cut early.
As you stated, the contract has 2 parts, guaranteed and not guaranteed. If a player wants more guaranteed that has value and the contract total will be less to balance the total.

The contract does not guarantee the entire amount so cutting a player is within the contract terms. Holding out is not within the contract terms.

Read an article on this using Albert Hainsworth as an example. Author eas pushing for guaranteed contracts. Siad it wasnt fair the poor Al signed a $100M contract, but only got the $45M that was guaranteed.l Well he only "played" 2 seasons, refused to practice very hard, told the rookies to ease up it's only practice, and was often late. In short, he didnt work hard and was a detriment to the team. For that he made over $22m per year. I think he got far more than he deserved.
 

Mondio

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you know a guy is costing your team a lot when you'd rather eat 36 million dollars in dead cap than keep the guy around.
 

Dantés

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I disagree totally with your second paragraph and the premise you have put forth. The only money guaranteed in a contract is that which is specifically put in the contract as up front signing bonus. The rest is subject to the player maintaining his roster spot which is decided by the employer. I fully expect the player to honor the terms of his contract just like I expect the team to honor the salary and other time specific bonuses by paying the player in a timely fashion. Imo, when a player holds out, he is in breach of contract.

That's factually incorrect. He's not in breach of contract when holding out. The team has no legal standing to take a hold-0ut player to court. He would be in breach of contract if he tried to play for another franchise before he was a free agent.

If it's totally fine for a team to cut a player under contract and get out from all but the guarantees (and yes, I do think that's fine), then I can't imagine why it would not be ok for a player to hold out for more. Why is there an expectation for the player to honor a contract that the team doesn't have to? That's a double standard.
 

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That's factually incorrect. He's not in breach of contract when holding out. The team has no legal standing to take a hold-0ut player to court. He would be in breach of contract if he tried to play for another franchise before he was a free agent.

If it's totally fine for a team to cut a player under contract and get out from all but the guarantees (and yes, I do think that's fine), then I can't imagine why it would not be ok for a player to hold out for more. Why is there an expectation for the player to honor a contract that the team doesn't have to? That's a double standard.

Perhaps in legal terms, withholding his services while collecting his salary is not breach of contract. For the team to not honor the contract would mean not paying his bonus or salary in a timely fashion. No contracts that I know of have roster spot guarantees in them and I'm not aware of no-cut clauses in the standard NFL contract. It's why we see roster bonuses and active game day roster incentives in many contracts.
 

Dantés

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Perhaps in legal terms, withholding his services while collecting his salary is not breach of contract. For the team to not honor the contract would mean not paying his bonus or salary in a timely fashion. No contracts that I know of have roster spot guarantees in them and I'm not aware of no-cut clauses in the standard NFL contract. It's why we see roster bonuses and active game day roster incentives in many contracts.

To be clear, I'm not criticizing teams for cutting players early if their value has declined. In a league that doesn't have fully guaranteed contracts, that's just smart business. But I'm not going to say it's fine for a team to do that while expecting the player to play through the whole thing no matter what. That's the double standard.

For a hypothetical, let's say the Packers give Clinton-Dix a 5 year, 40 million $ extension with 25M in guarantees. The guarantees are virtually all in the first two seasons. So they sign him and then he regresses big time. They give him the two years, he doesn't improve, and so they cut him with minimal cap implications. Fans would applaud the release, as it would free up cap space by getting rid of a bad contract. No one would lament that the Packers were being selfish by not honoring the remainder of the deal.

So conversely, let's say the same thing happens but that HHCD takes his game to another level. He's playing like a top 3 safety and after two years, with increasing cap ceilings, the going rate for his services is 12M/season. If he asked for a raise and threatened a hold-out, most of those same fans would shred him as a me-first jerk. But why? Why is that different than the team cutting him early? If they can say that circumstances have changed and we're tearing up this deal because we can, then at the very least players should be able to exercise what leverage they have to try and get a deal that better suits them when circumstances shift their way.
 
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For a hypothetical, let's say the Packers give Clinton-Dix a 5 year, 40 million $ extension with 25M in guarantees. The guarantees are virtually all in the first two seasons. So they sign him and then he regresses big time. They give him the two years, he doesn't improve, and so they cut him with minimal cap implications.
While this does not go your larger point there are a couple of factors you need to take into account: dead cap and "who else ya got?" He could have a $10 mil cap hit in year 3 under that contract but if the dead cap is $5 mil, the question is not whether he's a $10 mil player; it's whether he's a $5 mil player because that's what you'd gain in cutting him and have available to secure a replacement. The decision gets easier or harder depending on whether there is a viable replacement already on the roster and what his contract looks like. This is more a factor with the Packers than anybody else given infrequent forays into FA, this offseason notwithstanding.

Matthews was not retained for this season because he's a $15 mil cap player; the question is whether he's an $11 mil cap savings value factoring in who's on the bench. Cobb is not a $12.6 mil cap player; he's a $6.1 mil cap savings question. Some bounce back by these players even if not to peak form makes them decent values in the alternative cap savings equation.

This is the hidden downside of signing bonuses. Sure, if the player gets injured or is in permanent decline, biting the bullet on a large dead cap number may be an easy decision even if the cap savings is not huge. The player's residual value is exhausted. But you can also have situations where the player has shown some decline, has not lived up to the contract, but whose value might exceed the current cap savings number. That's the tough call with perhaps regrets in the rear view mirror.
 

PikeBadger

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To be clear, I'm not criticizing teams for cutting players early if their value has declined. In a league that doesn't have fully guaranteed contracts, that's just smart business. But I'm not going to say it's fine for a team to do that while expecting the player to play through the whole thing no matter what. That's the double standard.

For a hypothetical, let's say the Packers give Clinton-Dix a 5 year, 40 million $ extension with 25M in guarantees. The guarantees are virtually all in the first two seasons. So they sign him and then he regresses big time. They give him the two years, he doesn't improve, and so they cut him with minimal cap implications. Fans would applaud the release, as it would free up cap space by getting rid of a bad contract. No one would lament that the Packers were being selfish by not honoring the remainder of the deal.

So conversely, let's say the same thing happens but that HHCD takes his game to another level. He's playing like a top 3 safety and after two years, with increasing cap ceilings, the going rate for his services is 12M/season. If he asked for a raise and threatened a hold-out, most of those same fans would shred him as a me-first jerk. But why? Why is that different than the team cutting him early? If they can say that circumstances have changed and we're tearing up this deal because we can, then at the very least players should be able to exercise what leverage they have to try and get a deal that better suits them when circumstances shift their way.
Understand your hypothetical and this was discussed here on this forum a year ago I think.

I still disagree with your reasoning. The players leverage imo is the upfront signing bonus, which automatically is a risk borne by the team. The player gets instant long term financial security in exchange the team gets the option of release date. In exchange for guaranteed lifetime financial security upfront, he gets a pre-set salary by terms of contract and probably gets passed by in annual compensation in later years by lesser players if the cap rises. It seems like a good trade off to me. Guaranteed lifetime financial security is the ultimate bonus. The team bears a huge risk in early years of contract and justly gets rewarded later if the player continues to play at a high level.
 

Dantés

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Understand your hypothetical and this was discussed here on this forum a year ago I think.

I still disagree with your reasoning. The players leverage imo is the upfront signing bonus, which automatically is a risk borne by the team. The player gets instant long term financial security in exchange the team gets the option of release date. In exchange for guaranteed lifetime financial security upfront, he gets a pre-set salary by terms of contract and probably gets passed by in annual compensation in later years by lesser players if the cap rises. It seems like a good trade off to me. Guaranteed lifetime financial security is the ultimate bonus. The team bears a huge risk in early years of contract and justly gets rewarded later if the player continues to play at a high level.

It's ok; we don't have to agree.
 
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Perhaps in legal terms, withholding his services while collecting his salary is not breach of contract.

Just to clarify, players aren't getting paid while holding out and are even fined by the team for missing mandatory practices.
 
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Most agents and players want to get as much guaranteed money as possible because even by agreeing to a long term deal doesn't assure the team not releasing the player before the expiration of the contract.
While players obviously want guaranteed monies, there is no rule that I'm aware of that say guaranteed monies need to be paid "lump sum" and "upfront". There are risks to both sides,but IMO signing a short term deal (1-2 years etc..) with a high profile player like Aaron is only going to result in a higher annual cost hit in the short term. If we have to resign him every year the sum of those contracts (and guaranteed monies) will be far greater than a multi-year deal.
 
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Rodgers is a tier above Carr too.

There's absolutely no doubt about that.

While players obviously want guaranteed monies, there is no rule that I'm aware of that say guaranteed monies need to be paid "lump sum" and "upfront". There are risks to both sides,but IMO signing a short term deal (1-2 years etc..) with a high profile player like Aaron is only going to result in a higher annual cost hit in the short term. If we have to resign him every year the sum of those contracts (and guaranteed monies) will be far greater than a multi-year deal.

You're absolutely right that there's no rule about guaranteed money having to be paid upfront but generally the signing bonus takes up the majority of the guarantees. It's possible for teams to guarantee additional money like base salaries or bonuses in future years as well though. For example a lot of rookie deals for first rounders have been fully guaranteed deals within the past few years.

I agree there's absolutely no reason to sign core player to a short term deal.
 
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