Clifton and Favre

[packedhouse01]

What is with Clifton this year and not knowing the count? He's got penalties tonight for standing up early on the snap count. Whether we like it or not once again Favre's interceptions are intrumental in this loss. Perhaps he's trying to do too much. One of the comments I made in the early part of the season was that Brett, with this particular team, needs to make the right play; not the great play. To be honest it's very sad to see a guy who has been such a great quarterback play so badly.

 

[sunshine]

well, the picks weren't good but once again, we nearly pulled this one out thanks to brett. take the good with the bad - he does push it at times to make things happen & takes alot of chances as a result. it was one of the more enjoyable games to watch for me this year. we didn't get blown out, watching brett fighting to win in the last few seconds, the punt return for the td, & the td by tauscher - even though it was called back - it's always fun to watch a big guy doin the lambeau leap!! :lol: :lol:

 

[P@ck66]

Packedhouse..

I'm tired of that ******** line..it just ain't true..

And before Musscy comes on..and others, and complains that if Brett just stuck to SherRossley's "game plan" and took what was available..the Pack would win the game...

That is most moronic conception that I have heard on this forum...Do you honestly think that Sherman and Rossley have an answer to winning a game if Brett didn't throw an interception or if Aaron Rodgers were QB?

First of all...SherRossley's game plan is predictable and old...and just downright sucks...that is why (along with the lack of talent at receiver) that you rarely see receivers open for GB like you do on every other team that the Pack has played this year....It also explains many of the interceptions...

These new players have to be "coached up" by the GB Packer coaches..and it simply isn't happening...It looks like their just being thrown in there and told to run a route, which they are not good at...

You simply can not win without a running game and without good receivers...can't be done..you are playing with NFL europe talent in the NFL..and it just won't work..

You're just "****** in the wind", and you might as well forfeit the rest of the year...

But if TT decides to take the long road to rebuilding, like he did in Seattle, then you won't see much winning in GB for a long time to come..

You have to have some talent on the team other then Brett Favre and someone calling the plays who has a clue..and who knows how to take advantage of the other teams' weaknesses...like Lovie did today....

 

[tromadz]

i hear ya. its not injuries, its not missed FGs, its not a bad oline, its not no extra blockers on blitzes...

its brett favre...



the perfect xmas gift for the people who feel that way is cyanide capsules.

 

[packedhouse01]

66, I agree that the talent on offense is near awful. However, that doesn't release Favre from blame when he doesn't play well. He threw some bullets tonight, but he also threw four interceptions and when your HOF QB does that, you're not going to win. We may not win anyway because we just don't have the talent. Granted Favre is playing with what seems to be new players every week. he has had virtually the same line all year. He's also had pretty much the same receiving corps. all year. Now they don't get open, and I've said that. They don't get seperation and I've said that too. The also don't come back for the ball as good receivers should, but knowing that would mean to me that you just can't throw into coverage all the time as he has done this year. I wish we had a better running game, but we seem to give up on that awfully early.

I have loved watching Brett Favre as much as anyone, but the bottom line is along with his teammates, he's not playing very well and you're just not going to win when you throw four interceptions.

 

[musccy]

Pack66...you say that you can't win w/out talent? So then how can you blame the coaches for the lack of talent, but give Brett a free pass? Shouldn't either both be blamed, or both be given a free pass?

I say the later. I too am questioning what's going on w/ the playcalling. Other than while playing Madden, I couldn't call a game to save my life, but I also notice when stuff isn't working...the lack of talent certainly limits what they can call, and no matter who is playing, some blame rests on the players, but they look exceptionally anemic out there.

But Brett can't be given a free pass either. 28 picks is a joke, even if he were playing with the bad news bears, that's just awful. It's not like David Carr is surrounded by all-world players, but does he have 28 picks? Some of the blame rests on his shoulders too.

 

[all about da packers]

P@ck66, interesting how you come out to pick on SherRossley after every loss, yet you are nowhere to be found for a few days after a win. Fact is this... you're hate for SherRossley is making you ignorant. Face the facts, even Lombardi could only do so much with so little. And the blame must go to Brett too, or part of the blame. I would like to see you try and approach a vet like Favre, and tell him him to change it up, not to play the way that has worked for him his whole career. If you say you can do this, then you are a flat out liar because the fact is no one can. You can't argue with the facts, brett's way works best for him. If MS even tried to change the way Favre does things, he would surly loose all respect, or whatever of it is left, from all players.

If a person always comes out and blames the Coaches after each and every loss, I question the knowledge that person has about football.

 

[tromadz]

wrong.

look at the patriots. they suffered as many injuries as green bay did, but they have good coaching, and because of that we will be watching them in two weeks in the playoffs.

good coaching can overcome injuries and lack of talent.

 

[all about da packers]

Trom, after loosing Harrison, they were crap. They only got that sizzle back after Bruschi came back. The Pats have only been consistent for past 3 weeks or so.

And if the Pats have the best coach, can you answer my question on why Bellichek did so poorly in Clevland in his previosu run? He also had Charlie W. and Romeo C. as assistants. Talent does matter. If it didn't, Bellichek would have done outstanding in Clevland. By all accounts, he failed.

 

[tromadz]

wrong.

making the playoffs is failing? cmon now...lets relax here. Good coaching can overcome injuries and lack of talent, ok. I'm not saying if we had belichek, we woulda been playoff bound, but we woulda won more than 3, ill tell ya that.

 

[all about da packers]

Making the playoffs is indeed failing. Only one team can win the Lombardi, and for all other teams the season was a waste. In the end, the trophy counts, not how many games you won. You make it to the playoffs, but in the end only one team can by the real winner, and for all the other teams, the season was a bust. Simple as that.

Did Bellichek even make the playoffs during his Clevland run? As far as I know (which isn't tremendous knowledge), Bellichek had terrible records as a Browns coach.

 

[tromadz]

Making the playoffs is indeed failing.

careful now, im about to have a lot of fun at your expense, but i like you, so im gonna be nice. Lets just agree...that belicheck is better than sherman. I dont see why we both couldnt at least agree to that one.

 

[vixtalkn]

Enough already.

The 3rd Qtr pick - play's designed to go left, but that's where pressure comes. Instead Favre checkdowns to Henderson on the right, but doesn't see Briggs. No double coverage, just Briggs making a great jump on the ball.

The last 4th Qtr pick - after two sacks it's 4th and 27 with seconds left. The play is simply a hail mary.

The other two picks are hard to tell. The 2nd Qtr one off Chatman is either a bad throw or Chatman not being where he's suppose to be on a go route. The 4th Qtr one off Lee, Lee had single coverage, but the Bears had the blitz on forcing Favre to throw it quick. The blitz did what the blitz does--force QBs into making bad throws.

In Favre's defense, he threw to his 18th different receiver yesterday. He faced the League's #1 defense with no rushing game to speak of. Did you really expect to see perfection on every pass play?

Nevertheless, I'll give credit where credit is due. The Favre to Driver combination was hitting on all cylinders.

 

[NDPackerFan]

Making the playoffs is indeed failing.

careful now, im about to have a lot of fun at your expense, but i like you, so im gonna be nice. Lets just agree...that belicheck is better than sherman. I dont see why we both couldnt at least agree to that one.

all about da packers,

Be careful. One should never question tromadz's expertise nor share an opinion of your own...some people know it all so different views are not needed. All you need to do is just absorb all of the infinite wisdom and you'll be fine. :roll:

 

[packedhouse01]

Vixtalkin, I understand what you're saying, but here is the bottom line; you roll up over 300 yards on offense but you lose the game. Even good teams are going to have a tough time wining with four interceptions. Interceptions happen ok? We all know that. We all know he's thrown to 18 different receivers this year, but he's thrown to 28 guys from different teams too. You can't do that and win. As I have said numerous times, what Favre has to do with this team is make the right play, not the great play, that's how you help this team win. I love Favre, but you aren't going to win throwing interceptions.

 

[musccy]

very well said packedhouse! I too love watching Brett and get excited everytime he revs up to throw, but the pics are driving me nuts. I'm tired of all the excuses...are some interceptions to be blamed on other receivers? Probably, but that applies to every other qb in the league so when comparing Brett's 28 to Peytons 10(I have no idea how many he has) then maybe it's more like 20:7 instead...but that number is still inexcusable.

 

[all about da packers]

Alright Trom, lets agree to disagree in some cases. But regardless, I agree with you the Bellichek is better.

musccy, you are right. Some have got to be the WR's fault too. Infact, about 5 (at least!) have got to fall on Ferggy, who basically has proven that the contract extension by MS was yet another mistake.

 

[P@ck66]

DePack..help me out here..will ya?

People..please try and understand this....

When the Packers get into the Red Zone...they can not SCORE! So what is the point that you are trying to make by pinning it on Brett Favre? He did not go from throwing over 3,000 yards and 30 TD's last year to THIS...

(Are you saying that his abilities have sunk so low in ONE YEAR? Well if you are..you are wrong...DEAD WRONG)

Wrong about Favre and wrong about Longwell too!

Now the reasons for this are many....

Two of the biggest reasons seem to be that the other team's defenses seem to know what routes are going to be run by the Packers before the are run....and two, the Packer receiver's aren't talented enough to make a move on a DB to get open...or fight for the ball when it's in their proximity... (with the exception of Driver..who just gets double covered in the Red Zone..)

In other words..the Packers can't score in the red zone...

(It's like the Giants of a few years ago..when they piled all kinds of statistics in terms of yards..first downs..etc..etc..they were leading the league in many areas....BUT they couldn't score in the red zone...)

So..until the coaching staff starts to come up with some creative and different play calling to try and get the team in the end zone with the people they have...(instead of hoping that Brett Favre can bail them by firing lasers into tightly covered receivers)....the Packers will not score in the red zone...

When is the last time Brett Favre threw a TD pass? Do you think it's a coincidence?

Also..when is Ahmad Carroll going to make a ****** play on a ball by sticking his hand up there and breaking up the pass instead of watching the receiver catch the ball and tackling him for a huge gain...and then complain to the refs because he can't cover?

i'm sick of it...

 

[NDPackerFan]

Vixtalkin, I understand what you're saying, but here is the bottom line; you roll up over 300 yards on offense but you lose the game. Even good teams are going to have a tough time wining with four interceptions. Interceptions happen ok? We all know that. We all know he's thrown to 18 different receivers this year, but he's thrown to 28 guys from different teams too. You can't do that and win. As I have said numerous times, what Favre has to do with this team is make the right play, not the great play, that's how you help this team win. I love Favre, but you aren't going to win throwing interceptions.

Agree 100%. You hit the nail on the head when you talk about making the right play. Favre still has all the tools to be a great QB in this league but his decision-making this season was at an all-time low when it needed to be at its best due to the players he's playing with. Easier said than done though...

 

[P@ck66]

What decisions would that be ND...and Vix?

To throw to a covered receiver because there's nobody open on a route?

Or to throw to the ONLY receiver because the Pack only had one receiver running a route? Did you see that one? Pretty easy to cover a guy when he's the only receiver running a route on the play...

Also..what should his decision be when the Pack runs a pass play with an empty backfield and the defense realizes it should blitz..and the Pack has a shaky O-Line to begin with?

I guess the decision should be to fire the ball into the ground and take an intentional grounding penalty..because the play didn't have a snowball's chance in hell to begin with...

those are good options that SherRossley's leaving Favre with....eh?

There are many more options like this that I can point to...

 

[NDPackerFan]

What decision would that be ND...and Vix?

To throw to a covered receiver because there's nobody open on a route?

Or because the Pack only had one receiver running a route? Did you see that one? Pretty easy to cover a guy when he's the only receiver running a route on the play...

Also..what should his decision be when the Pack runs a pass play with an empty backfield and the defense realizes it should blitz?

I guess the decision should be to fire the ball into the ground and take an intentional grounding penalty..because the play didn't have a snowball's chance in hell to begin with...

those are good options that SherRossley's leaving Favre with....eh?

The one-receiver route was ridiculous and I agree with you there. However, how about the times this season where Favre airs the ball out to Driver, looking at him the entire time, with 3 defenders surrounding him? Is that the coach's fault? I've said this a hundred times and I'll say it one more - I believe in Favre even now to lead this team but I won't overlook his mistakes that he makes week in and week out that hamper this team's chances to win like you do. Your hatred for Sherman/Rossley and love for Brett Favre make you oblivious to anything that #4 happens to do wrong.

There are many QB's that would struggle big time with the lack of talent Favre has had to put up with this season. He needed to understand that taking chances with Javon Walker is a whole lot different than tossing it up for grabs to Driver or Fergy. (By the way, I don't need any "Driver is awesome" posts as a reply as I already know he is very talented....just not a JWalk type of receiver)

 

[P@ck66]

Well..ND..et.al..

What I am trying to point is that if you put the great Peyton Manning out there..you would have the same result...

Hell..if you put Archie Manning out there you would see the same thing...

(Tom Brady...Marino..whomever...)

Just trying to help you NOT forget that...

 

[NDPackerFan]

P@ck66...

Why would I need your help on this subject? Now you have me wondering if you've ever read my posts concerning this topic. Have I not said the same thing? There aren't many QB's out there that wouldn't struggle mightily under the same conditions. There! I've said it even once more.

In earlier years, when a play broke down, Favre had some serious players around him to bail the situation out. It was nothing for Sterling Sharpe to go up and take down a floater that Favre knew might work. Even the MNF game against the Raiders after Favre's dad passed away...many of those balls could have been picks as well and the whole legendary tale would be told differently...it was Favre's RECEIVERS that came up huge for him that day. I think Favre was a true warrior and hero because he could even lace up the cleats and go on the field much less produce the way he did; however, I think the receivers' effort gets kind of lost in the shuffle.

Anyway, back to my point...those types of playmakers are gone right now and Favre needs to know that if a play is bad, throw the f*ing ball away. There! You wanted to know the decision he needs to make and I just gave it to you. Throw the ball away if no one is open!!! If Favre throws the ball down the field on 3rd and long and the defense picks it off at the 4 yard line a la Baltimore, great! That's the best punt we've had all season! I'm talking about the plays we've seen this year that have really, really cost this team.

 

[P@ck66]

and what do you think would happen then ND..if Favre threw the ball away..as you suggest...??

Do you think that SherRossley would come up with some brilliant schemes to suprise the other team and get the ball in the end zone?

i sure don't...

and do you think the Pack would have done better this year and be competing for the playoffs now if Favre had done as you suggested, or would it be ALOT of 3 and outs with the most prolific punter in the NFL....BJ Sander...?

I've got news for you...

The season would have been even worse if Favre only threw to the "open receiver" this year.....because the "open receiver" was about as rare as spotting a 12 point..albino buck strolling through downtown GB proper.....(unless of course...you were coming from a downtown GB watering hole...where many such beasts may have been spotted...)

the Pack was "punchless" this year, and the only thing that could have helped them was smart and creative gameplanning by the coaches...

but alas..that happening this year was also as big of a "longshot"...

 

[musccy]

nail on the head ND...the receivers over the years have bailed out Brett and his style of play in situations that you described. W/out those guys on the roster, he has to resort to being a conventional, don't lose it for us, Dilfer/orton type of qb. THat's how the pack could have won this year (well, not many games, but more than 3 I'd bet), but Brett refused to adapt to the hand he was dealt...hence the 28 picks and 3-12 record.

He's had other options...I always reference a play v. cleveland where the tv guys showed him jamming it into fergy in the endzone (double coverage) resulting in a pick while william henderson was streaking down the right sideline wide open. For all we know this could be happening every play, but it's hard to tell from the tv angles we see on Fox/CBS, but I'm willing to bet when he throws it into triple coverage (which we've seen a lot of, esp. the last 4 weeks) that someone on the field is open.

I admit, a lot easier for me to sit here on the computer and criticize, but it's also pretty easy for the MS bashers to sit at their computer after the fact and rip him a new one...so if they're going to throw that consideration to the wind, than so will I.