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Chalk another one up for Ted

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by net, Dec 1, 2006.

  1. net

    net Cheesehead

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    On ESPN radio early this morning they were saying around the league...as of right now...Sean Payton...is the odds-on favorite to win Coach of the Year.

    Ted-Boy interviewed Payton and McCarthy and picked McCarthy. He said MMc was a better "fit".

    After last season, the one place most observers felt was a bad situation was New Orleans. Their owner (a notorious tightwad) stepped up and plopped down the cash for Brees and Bush and some others, in comes Payton, and it looks like they are going to win their division.

    The Packers come in with a Hall-Of-Fame QB, 1000 yard rusher, a top 12 defense last year and they are now wondering about where they will be drafting. The Bears are tough, but the Vikings and the Lions aren't, yet the Packers were shut out at home...twice...and the Bears are running away with the division.

    As I mentioned above, this isn't a slam at McCarthy. I think he will be a good coach, once he learns the ropes. But Payton's apprenticeship under Bill Parcells should have meant more than it apparently did to Ted-Boy. Ted wanted the WCO at all costs. Well, it's costing him.

    Yes, hindsight is 20-20. But since the day the Packers hired Ted-Boy it has been a steep downward slope. The hope is the team will emerge stronger than ever. But as Payton showed in New Orleans, in today's NFL, you don't need 5 years to rebuild, and by the time you get to 5 years, you just might be rebuilding again, and again, and again(circa 1970-1992).
     
  2. TOPackerFan

    TOPackerFan Cheesehead

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    I'm not sure that Payton has so much to do with it though. The Saints found themselves two special players this offseason, and by that I mean true game-changing playmakers (Brees and Colston). Imagine Marques Colston on the Packers right now - we'd certainly have a pretty good shot at the playoffs.
     
  3. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    The Bears needed 4 years to get back to a winning record...

    Bengals, have been losers for long time, up until the last 2 or 3 years..

    Bills, this is 4th year that could be a losing season

    Raiders who in 2002 were in the SUPER BOWL and have not have had a winning record sense..

    Even Seattle, they had 2 losing seasons sandwhiched with one winning season between them.. and that was with Holmgren..

    A common thread between most of those teams, no real q/b to help..

    Bengals finally started to win with Palmer getting the nod..And now Drew in N.O.......Matt in Seattle , since he became the q/b there did they win more consistently..

    So maybe the N.O turn around is more out of the norm..A perfect situation if you will..Much like the Wolf, Holmgren era...

    and not to beat a dead horse, but that 12th ranking was just in yards..Scoring was 20th....... rushing allowed 25th or so
     
  4. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    and please dont take my post to mean Brett is the issue...I just noticed when looking into those teams what common thread they had
     
  5. spardo62

    spardo62 Cheesehead

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    I agree with the above, in that NO picked up a very good QB entering the prime of his career, got an impact player(Colston) in the 7th round and also had the benefit of having Bush fall to them at #2.

    Given the circumstances, it is unfair to assume that GB would be better off today or down the road if Ted had hired Payton.

    I think both will turn out to be good coaches in this league and 3-5 years from now we will have a better feel if this is correct and which one may have been the better hire.
     
  6. digsthepack

    digsthepack Cheesehead

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    And, Payton inherited a roster chock full O' high round draft picks from all their previous losing seasons. The common perception of the Saints over the last decade is that of a very talented team (especially on defense) that was poorly lead, managed and coached. Add a couple key FAs, particularly Brees to stabilize the QB spot that has always been the Saints' achilles heel, and you have a decent team.

    We, on the other hand, are on the backside of a winning run that defied the law of averages in the modern NFL, and have been picking late until only recently.

    Yep, accurate comparison!

    You know, I think most people would take a post like this more seriously, or be more open to your thoughts, if the silly little "Ted-Boy" references were not made. It is weak, and it diminishes a valid opinion to the point of being laughable.

    It did not take the Saints 5 years to rebuild because their roster was already full of solid talent....we are currently in the procurement phase as the previous regime left nothing but bare cupboards. The replacements we are now obtaining should have already been on the roster...but were given away for NOTHING in the hopes of getting that ONE player to push us over the top.

    History is interesting, and pertinent, when examining many things, even the state of our beloved Packers. You might want to brush up on the last 7 years to more accurately discuss why the team is where it is.
     
  7. gator

    gator Cheesehead

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    Heaven forbid that Packer fans should have had any expectations of tt going into this year...the mantra among fans seems to be "be patient--we're rebuilding", but they really aren't....he's not adding vets of any value (manuel is balanced out by an overrated woodson) and his draft choices seem to find the waiver wire or the injury list with an amazing consistency....his choice for head coach gets outdone on a weekly basis and seems unable to make an effective adjustment during a gema and we are stuck with a number of assistants who were fired from here in the past......
    Meanwhile the quality players on the team are wasting some of the last years in their careers--or contracts and there isn't anyone in the system to replace them..... tt hasn't done this team or it's fans any favors, except to leave some salarycap money on the table.

    Last weekend I heard someone talking abut he Falcons and Mike Vick--the idea was 'as long as you are more concerned with the bottom line than winning rings--this is as good as you can get." I'm thinking our own tt fits that description to a "t"
     
  8. ChrisC

    ChrisC Cheesehead

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    Interesting post, digs. As you say, history is pertinent. I am thankful for that winning run, which did indeed defy the modern NFL law of averages.

    Amidst all the talk of TT, MM etc, I think we have to recognise that eventually parity, the cap and picking late in the draft were going to jump up and bite us!

    I crave success as much as any Packer fan, but I think we are going to have to take our parity medicine for a time :puke: and make the most of any high picks we "earn".

    I just hope our recovery is quick!! :cross:

    Chris
     
  9. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    A NUMBER of assistants?? Who other then Kurt?

    Not adding any vets?? ummmm Kampmann, Green, Pickett, and Woodson looks like he really is doing a good job..I hated the signing of him but am liking it more each week now..

    Draft choices, find the injury list..So now you are blaming TT for a player being injured~~~~~that is classic...

    And vets WASTING away w/o anyone to replace them...

    Ummm HELLOOOOOOO that is EXCATLY what most people say was going on with Sherman...But Tt is suppoose to fix that with snapo of his fingers...

    It seems you dont like the players or most of them, but yet wont lay any blame on them for the record..But want to put all the blame on TT and MM..

    And please dont say if we had different HC, the team would have a better record...

    If you are thinking that, who is the guy who brought in or handles the roster??? Yup TT..
     
  10. net

    net Cheesehead

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    1)So I take it you like Ted Thompson. That is your opinion. It also flavors your reaction above. So I don't have the right to think Thompson is not putting the team on the right track, but you have the right to. Curious.

    2)Thanks for making my point about Sean Payton. He is the person to lead the Saints forward. The Packers also have a fair amount of talent as I explained above. Payton moved the Saints forward. The Packers are at the very least stuck where they were last year.

    3)Your sarcastic analysis of the Packers vs. the Saints ignores;
    a.The team started in reverse when Thompson came on board
    b. The Packers had won division titles prior to his coming on board. The
    majority of that talent was still on board, including Favre and Green.
    4)The players making the largest contributions are Brees,(new sign) Bush(new sign) McAllister(a star when McCarthy was there) and Colston,(new sign). They had talent, but no more than the Packers, and I would argue until this season, less.

    5)Among the dozens of websites I read each week, (CBS, PFW, FOX etc.)
    none, repeat none, expected the Saints to be anything but a sub .500 team. Yet Payton comes in, sets up his system, off they go. Maybe the WCO isnt' the answer?

    6)Apparently you missed the part where this wasn't a slam at McCarthy, merely that Payton apparently was more prepared to be a head coach than MMc. MMc might turn out to be ok, but this year wasn't much of a step forward, is it? Being shut out by the Bears and New England at home tells me this team has a long way to go.

    7)Thompson is gambling that he can start the league's youngest team and it will bear fruit. But if it doesn't, he can blame McCarthy(who doesn't control the personnel or contracts) and boot him out season after next.

    8)I also suggest you brush up on where the team is. I see "Divsion Champs" there, and since "Ted-Boy" has come on board....8-19?

    9)It's not just McCarthy who is judged by wins and losses. Ask Matt Millen.

    10)Have a nice day.
     
  11. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    NET:

    You make very valid points, but one thing I have a little issue with..

    You keep saying N.O was suppose to be 500 or less..Did all those experts think that because Brees was an unsure thing? Or did they say Brees would be as good as he has been..

    Brees is the X factor for them..Case in point, Bledsoe in Dallas now Romo..

    Sometimes a q/b can make all the difference in the world..

    If Brees was not the q/b and Brooks still was, how do you think they would be?
     
  12. TOPackerFan

    TOPackerFan Cheesehead

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    I don't think anyone predicted Brees would have the impact he did (and no one thought Colston would have that kind of impact otherwise he would have gone much higher in the draft).
     
  13. Greg C.

    Greg C. Cheesehead

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    net: As digs said, you can't expect to be taken seriously when you continually refer to Thompson as "Ted-Boy." Because digs pointed this out doesn't necessarily mean he "likes" Ted Thompson. Who cares who anybody likes? I neither like Thompson nor hate him; I'm waiting to see how he does for the next year or two, as he turns over much of the roster and tries to revitalize the team mostly through the draft.

    You mention that the Packers came into the season with a Hall of Fame QB, which is true enough, but he was coming off a horrendous season. You also mention that the Packers had a 1,000 yard rusher, but don't mention that he was terrible last season and then suffered an injury from which most people thought he would never fully recover. And as for the top 12 defense, let's face it--the defense was average, and then they lost the defensive coordinator who had taken below-average talent and turned it into an average defense.

    Yours is the kind of post that will be enjoyed by the people who hate Thompson, but won't do anything for those who are still on the fence.
     
  14. digsthepack

    digsthepack Cheesehead

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    No, as I stated, net, you have an absolute right to your opinion, and most of your points have some validity depending where you come from and how you view as the best way to build a team (draft/FA)...but your points are diminished when you choose to get all 2nd grade with your silly name calling. That was my point.

    And yes, I generally favor the job TT is doing thus far. Has it been perfect? Nope, never is...but I like what he is doing. Let's review the team he inherited.

    Offense:

    QB - An aging legend who still has game in Favre, and a decent backup with starter potential in Nall...who was itching to have a chance to start and left.

    RB - An aging Pro-Bowler in AG who had begun to show decline; an injury waiting to happen in ******, and Tony Fisher an imminently replaceable 3rd down back of no special mention.

    WR - A top flight, Pro-Bowl WR, but sadly a headcase, in Javon Walker; the forever underestimated DD; MS pet and perpetual underachiever Robert Ferguson; and really nobody after this.

    TE - Bubba and Martin...nothing else.

    OL - Clifton and Tauscher are top shelf Pros; Rivera was breaking down and a shell of his former dominating self when he left; Wahle was a loss, but he has also underperformed relative to his current contract; Flanny was an aged, injured and declining warrior when he left. Backups? We don't need no stinking backups!!

    DL - A decent group of guys, in general, who make-up a good rotation. Jenkins, Williams, Kampmann are the cream of this crop with journeymen such as Montgomery, Cole filling it out. Also on the roster, turds such as C. Hunt and Donnell Washington (both MS pets) and the vastly overpaid and underperforming KGB.

    LB - Nick Barnett. No other name on the inherited roster is worthy of mention.

    DB - A couple more MS pets, Joey Thomas and Ahmad Carroll lead the list of turds. Followed by Mark "Matador" Roman...a guy who did not want to compete for his roster spot; Al Harris a very solid pro and dedicated to his craft; and Darren Sharper who while still a decent player is past his prime and overpaid relative to his performance.

    ST - Marquee MS pet, BJ Sander; and the exceptional Ryan Longwell.

    Today:

    QB is improved or the same...depending on how one views A-Rod.

    RB - A reinvigorated AG leads the group followed by the explosive and versatile Vernand Morency, and Noah Herron as the 3rd down back. I think this group is an improvement over the inherited group of backs. ****** was tempting, but imminently unreliable due to injuries.

    WR - No doubt the loss of JW's talent hurt, but a loss vastly offset by his bad attitude and the fact that his trade brought us up-and-coming star Greg Jennings and a number of other picks to build much needed depth. Driver just keeps getting better with age. This is an area of need in the draft, but far from the disaster many believe it to be. All told, a modest step backwards from the inherited roster.

    TE - Bubba and David Martin; addition of Donald Lee makes this an improved group.

    OL - Clifton and Tauscher stil playing at a high level; Wells coming into his own; young guys growing into their roles; more depth than we have had in years...even at this early point. Given the decline of Rivera and Flanny, the line drops some from the inherited group, but also offers so much more upside that what was here. More work to be done, but talent and depth are improving with experience.

    DL - Cut the turds and underperformers and brought in solid pro Ryan Pickett; solid but injured Kendrick Allen and has seen improvement. A better group than inherited.

    LB - Barnett, Hawk, Poppinga as starters, Taylor, Hodge, White and Hunter in reserve. Immense improvement over inherited LB corp.

    DB - Add a now performing Woodson to the team; the young and athletic Nick Collins; the questionable Marquand Manuel and a bunch of young talent like Underwood, Dendy and Bush. Much more solid starters and dept. Would I still like to have Sharper? Sure, but not at his current price tag. An improvement over inherited group.

    ST - Ryan is doing decent and has to be considered an improvement over Sander, and Rayner is more than holding his own and has much better distance and hangtime than Longwell could ever muster. I call this a wash.

    Again, it all depends on how tyou view as the best way to build a team. Today, I see a struggling young team that has the potential to be a monster in a couple years as young talent matures, drafts keep providing players, and select FAs are brought in to flesh out the roster for a run. Favre may not be the QB when this happens, but to me, the future looks bright indeed.

    Now, net...please do not put words in my mouth such as that your opinions are less valid than mine....your words, not mine. I merely disagree with your view of the current roster, and we differ philosophically on how to build a team, but I think more than anything else I was saying that your valid opinion(s) are diminished by the silly name calling.

    How you came to the conclusion you did is startling as I so much as stated this in my post.
     
  15. warhawk

    warhawk Cheesehead

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    Net,
    If you are going to get on the subject of what everyone was predicting how were we perceived going into '05?

    Even though we did make the playoffs in '04 I recall many predicting we would end up in the cellar last year. How could that be?

    You say "since Ted arrived" we are 8-19. The reality of it is the '05 team was Mike Sherman's team. By far the majority of players were his guys from '04 and before.

    "Teddy boy" didn't have a financial position to do much of anything to alter the '05 roster.

    Do you really want to present your case that we had a "top twelve" defense last year? C'mon man. We were lousy on "D" in '04 and it carried over to last year.

    We couldn't stop anybody against the run and from what I recall lost all five games we played against teams with their BACKUP QB.

    If everybody that had gotten hurt didn't, and we caught a few breaks and made the playoffs, that was a one and out(of the playoffs) defense if ever there was one.

    Playoff teams would have been drooling to go up against it.

    Are you saying TT should have left the "D" alone? Kept Digg's, Lenon, Carroll, Roman and the boys? I doubt we would have win #1 yet this year had we done that.

    You can paint what ever picture you want but those around the NFL that didn't see us doing much last year came up with that because for years we had busted on FA's, lowering our overall level of talent, and, had no young up and coming talent on the roster either.

    Most saw the drop in quality of play displayed in '04 from the prior 12-4 teams and saw the writing on the wall. What you have talent wise is only going to go so far. Without a continued influx of talent each year a drop is inevitable.

    I wish people would stop talking about what "TT inherited" as if it were some gift from God.

    Is there any doubt in anybody's mind where we were at going into '05 compared to the '03 squad, or, in the direction it was heading?

    He inherited a team that didn't beat the first damn team with a winning record the year before and got bounced out of the playoffs in the first round.

    And none, I repeat none, on CBS, Fox, or, PFW predicted us good enough to make it back in '05.

    Peyton, Scmatin'. MM had 10 first year guys on the field last week and had the Refs not screwed us it would have been down to the wire. The guy hasn't bitched or complained once about the guys he's had to work with.

    Or made excuse #1 because of it.
     
  16. porky88

    porky88 Cheesehead

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    Keep in mind Payton would of had to choose Green Bay over New Orleans. Now I don't have any proof he wouldn't but I have no clue if he would either.

    Also keep in mind Jim Mora Jr. won Coach of the Year in 2004 as he took the Atlanta Falcons to the NFC Title Game. He went 8-8 last year and the Falcons have lost 4 games in a row.

    While Payton easily would of been the better choice than McCarthy so many things factor in. Payton doesn't run the West Coast offense. Would Favre come back then? Does he want to go through the hassle of learning a new system or would he rather play elsewhere in a system he is familiar with. If Favre retires because we hired a Head Coach whom doesn’t run the West Coast most would have been bashing that hire before the Draft even started. Most wouldn’t of been able to be objective because Favre retired because Payton was hired. There is a good chance that is what would of happen. It did sound like Favre doesn’t want to go through learning a completely new system. He obviously didn’t have too.

    Part of why McCarthy was hired is because he runs the West Coast and is very familiar with Favre and other Quarterbacks. Realistically the hire was made to help sway Favre’s decision. Not sure if it did but Favre is back and playing good football this year.

    Also keep in mind the Saints went out and made a marquee free agent signing. Drew Brees! They also drafted Reggie Bush who does help create a lot of lanes for McAlister. Colston has been a huge surprise.

    Now everyone is going to criticize Ted Thompson because he doesn't spend the big bucks. That's not his philosophy. He wants to build this team through the Draft and that's what he's doing. To do that he's going to need some time. It seems like others don't have time. They want to win now and that's the end of the story. That's not how T.T. is going to do things. He's going to build through the Draft and use the Free Agency to put this team over the top. Whether he will or not is yet to be seen. He's still the GM and deserves a chance too. Next year he’ll have money to spend and another Draft under his belt including one very good one and one that others have mixed feelings about. None the less it would’ve been his 3rd year and next year is really the year where this team will be judged. This year it’s to early as a lot of these guys aren’t even in their “breakout” year yet.

    Keep in mind: Out of the 3 NFC North new Head Coaches. McCarthy has a strong case for being the best so far.
     
  17. Zero2Cool

    Zero2Cool I own a website

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    The Saints are a better football team!

    Did Ted interview Sean? I thought it was scheduled but never happened.


    I respect the notion of critiquing, however give the damn regime some time before you casterate them.

    I'm not telling anyone how to think, I don't want that misperception. I simply think we have to stop expecting a diamond when we have a shiny rock in front of us right now.

    Just as I said about Ahman Carroll. In his third year if he's not showing dramatic improvement over his first, cut the cord. I will do the same with the team. If next year Ted's first draft hasn't produced much, then I'll start to agree with the tedPoopers. If the following year the team has no heart, no effort and lacks the ability to win. McCarthy will be someone I think was wrong for the job.

    This is a win now league, but the intelligent people understand it takes time and patience. I think the only team that would make those fans happy would be the Florida Marlins lol
     
  18. trippster

    trippster Cheesehead

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    Keep in mind, Ted said that MM was a better "FIT". That is very important.

    no one can guarantee that Payton would have done better this year had he been in GB. I recall people saying the Saints had tremendous talent but were just a player or two away from the playoffs. Enter Brees. Also, they are possibly going to win the division becasue Carolina has stunk up the joint. I think NO is playing to expectations...Carolina is not.

    Coaches, players and all need to "fit" the place of employment. Ted never said that Payton wasn't an outstanding coach. Nor did he say that MM was better than Payton. Just a better fit. HAven't we all worked where we weren't really a "fit" yet excelled when we went elsewhere. I know I have.

    Seems to me a guy needed the right "Fit" after a struggle in Cleveland. Bill "I have three rings" Belichek. The man has to fit the system and vice versa.
     
  19. tromadz

    tromadz Cheesehead

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    I think the Saints just have better players, and maybe Payton is a little more ready than MM was(who is coming on).

    Brees > Favre
    Bush & MCallister > Ahman & Herron & Morency
    Horn & Colston > Driver & Jennings (but not by toooo much)

    Also, they have ONE rookie on the offensive line. GB is still growing theirs into solid players. It's called rebuilding.

    2 totally different teams
    2 totally different situations
     
  20. dxbfan

    dxbfan Cheesehead

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    So when you have a hall of fame QB still playing for you, you decide that's the best time to rebuild, off load vet talent to manage the cap and surround him with the youngest team in the league?
     
  21. PackFanInSC

    PackFanInSC Cheesehead

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    Living in SC, I see a lot of the NFC South. Yes, the Saints have made an impressive turnaround but consider a couple of things.

    The NFC South has a history of the cellar dweller winning the division out-right the following year.

    The consensus winner of the division in the pre-season (Panthers) are not the SuperBowl team everyone projected.

    Tampa has a very old defense, and a line that you couldn't drive a Cadillac through.

    Atlanta is Atlanta -- a running QB, aging undersized RB, top flight TE and a bunch of 2nd and 3rd string WRs. As Vick goes, so goes the Falcons.

    Yes, I like what Payton has done in New Orleans but we need to see how he compares to MM after 5 years -- not just 3/4 of a season.
     
  22. tromadz

    tromadz Cheesehead

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    he is a hall of famer? what does that mean? It means hes had a hell of a career, he has some insane stats and streaks(like most consecutive starts by a QB). It also means hes older now. His accuracy isnt nearly as good as it was.

    Gunslinger + Bad Accuracy = Bad Play

    and yes, the oline isnt great, the running game isnt good, and the defense...well...what defense?

    but thats THOSE areas, we're talking about Brett, whom I still love and would make out with if he allowed me to.
     
  23. dxbfan

    dxbfan Cheesehead

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    And when do you decide to get off the fence? It took Packers management 5 years to realise that Sherman wasnt the man for the GM's job. And by then, the team was over the cap, 5 drafts had been pretty much squandered and there was very little talent left that the team could afford to retain.

    You did mention earlier in your post that you would give TT another year or two. Through two drafts, the talent on this team comprises primarily of players not part of those drafts - Favre, Driver, Tauscher, Green(?), Kampman, Jenkins, Williams, Harris, Woodson, Pickett, Barnett. The key additions through the draft have been Hawk, Collins, Poppinga & Jennings, of which only Hawk and Jennings have been special.

    Two years from now its not unimagineable to see a team minus Favre, Green, Harris, Barnett, with Driver and Woodson in the twilight of their careers and a roster yet again full of first and second year players with potential.

    Rebuilding is fine as long as there is a clear cut goal and a time frame for achieveing it. If not, you could be rebuilding for ever.
     
  24. Yared-Yam

    Yared-Yam Cheesehead

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    I don't like it when people say "HE'S A HALL OF FAMER HE HAS TO PLAY!" or "YUP LET THE HALL OF FAMER SIT ON THE BENCH"

    Duh. We aren't stupid. Everyone in the freaking world knows he's a hall of famer. Favre is on the field because he's our best QB, not because he's a future hall of famer.

    Soon we'll say the same about Ingle Martin
     
  25. digsthepack

    digsthepack Cheesehead

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    It was not so much a choice to surround the aging HOFer with a very young team, it was a necessity because the cupboards were bare. Aging vets who were clung on too long without adequate replacements as the previous regime chased a SB that never came.....well, it should have come in the year of 4th and 26....but coaching took that one shot away with horrible game situation calls.
     

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