Bonds' Record Vs. Brett's Record.

Pack93z

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Was the pain killer Favre took mandated as against any rules? My recollectin was he blew the whistile on himself because he was concerned about it becoming a problem.

Good point and to my knowledge, Vicodin is not banned within the sport. But alas to that point was HGH and some of the other forms of roids banned in the 90's from Baseball? Not my knowledge, I don't believe they were until a few years ago.

From the day sports have been played you try to beat your opponent. I am not defending Bonds as much as asking the same question you laid forward at the end of your post.

Where is the line between what is deemed okay and what is deemed not?

Once banned from a sport the line is clear, but if it is not banned is it fair game?
 

Packnic

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Exactly Pack93. where do you draw the line for unfair advantage.

Barry Bonds might workout 4 hours a day... thats an advantage, should we regulate that???

Steroids hurts the body... they have since been banned from MLB and most sports. but you cant punish him for doing somethign not banned by MLB... you just cant period.

HGH is a legal supplement, just like Vicodin is a legal painkiller. both can help you gain an advantage in a way. Neither were illegal at the time they were being used... its end of story.

IF Barry is using anything illegal now, then punish him , ban him whatever.
If Favre is using anything illegal right now, then punish him, ban him whatever.
you cant take away accolades when they werent doing anything banned by their sport.
 

Packnic

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Packnic said:
i agree its not likely... but we dont know.

but again im not saying we should take anything from him at all....
or Barry for that matter.

im just saying the two instances are similiar.

How are they similar? I've read quite a bit and listened to quite a bit of interviews about Brett and his addiction and I've read quite a lot about Bonds and possibly taking steroids.

Brett had an addiction. Announced it to the world. Got help for it.
Bonds denies taking steroids. Announced his innocence to the world. Claims doesn't need help because he doesn't have a problem.

it has nothing to do with how nice of a guy Brett is. nothing.

Brett used something that may or may not have improved his performance or enabled him to play when he couldnt.

Barry used something that may or may not have improved his performance or enabled him to play when he couldnt.

thats not just similiar its the same thing, different drug....

NEITHER was illegal/banned by the sport they play at the time they took them.... NEITHER should be punished. If it happens again, freakin kill em for all i care, but not for past transgressions.
 

warhawk

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I think it's pretty obvious fooball players have been taking various meds for pain for years.
We've watched players hobble into the locker room only to come out after half looking like they could jump off of tall buildings for a LONG time now.

I actually think that there was a lot more pill popping in th '70's when that was more the thing and today's guys seem much more aware of what is good and bad to mess with.

I played in the '70's and some of the looks on players faces I saw was pretty scary and was not just adrenalin either.

I guess what I am saying is that the next guy behind Brett or the next one to get even close to his record will not be a stranger to pain meds. You don't play in that league for years without it at some point.

There's where the difference is vs. Bonds and Aaron. If Hank used roids they didn't work to great. He was kind of a skinny feller in his day.

The REAL question here is how many home runs would Henry have hit if HE were on roids? Bonds would probably had to play until the standard retirement age to beat that number.

Can you really here someone saying "Ya, but Brett took pain medication, man" in front of about 500 retired pro football players. He would get laughed out of the room.

People aren't laughing about Bonds.
 

Zero2Cool

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Zero2Cool said:
Packnic said:
i agree its not likely... but we dont know.

but again im not saying we should take anything from him at all....
or Barry for that matter.

im just saying the two instances are similiar.

How are they similar? I've read quite a bit and listened to quite a bit of interviews about Brett and his addiction and I've read quite a lot about Bonds and possibly taking steroids.

Brett had an addiction. Announced it to the world. Got help for it.
Bonds denies taking steroids. Announced his innocence to the world. Claims doesn't need help because he doesn't have a problem.

it has nothing to do with how nice of a guy Brett is. nothing.

Brett used something that may or may not have improved his performance or enabled him to play when he couldnt.

Barry used something that may or may not have improved his performance or enabled him to play when he couldnt.

thats not just similiar its the same thing, different drug....

NEITHER was illegal/banned by the sport they play at the time they took them.... NEITHER should be punished. If it happens again, freakin kill em for all i care, but not for past transgressions.

I'm not even going to waste my time reading the rest of yoru reply unless you explain to me where and how I said anything about Brett being a nice guy.
 

nathaniel

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I already posted this comment, but I think it needs stating again. Painkillers DO NOT protect you from getting hurt. Brett has the consecutive starts record because he hasn't had a major injury. He had a broken finger, but tons of quarterbacks have played with a broken finger. I broke a finger, but I was still able to do my job (roofing) without painkillers. Don't tell me Brett couldn't have.

Barry's situation is much different. Like I said before, he's one of the greatest hitters ever, but when you add steroids, those hits go farther, resulting in more homeruns. He won't admit he took them, and he never will. Comparing painkillers to steroids is just ridiculous. Like Zero has said, take out '95 and Brett still has the record.

Another thing. Brett continues to play with hopes of getting to the Super Bowl. He really believes he can. He's not still playing just for the records. Bonds, on the other hand, is continuing to play for the sole purpose of breaking the home run record. He will retire this year. He's said it in a bunch of interviews. He even said in a couple interviews that he's considered walking away from the game right after he hits 756. That, IMO, is playing for the wrong reasons.
 

warhawk

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First of all I don't think we can compare a painkiller in any way to a performance and physically enhancing drug.

Here is why. The roids guy can (and does) take both. You think a player of any sport that takes roids doesn't hit pain meds when hurting? Pshaw.

Let's start with this. We all ( and athletes too) take pain meds when we are hurting. We don't all take roids to get bigger and allow us to play better and longer. I say longer because I doubt Bonds is still around at 43 without it.

If you can name a pro athlete that has never taken a pain med you have just named a liar. Pain meds do not CREATE an unfair playing field like roids. Roids will kill you and if you have half a brain you don't take 'em. Those that do get temporarily ahead of the rest. Until their brain starts to rot.

What IS wrong in the pain meds issue is a team doc or private physician giving it out to a player who should not be playing with that particular injury. Which has probably only happened about a million times.
 

Zero2Cool

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First of all I don't think we can compare a painkiller in any way to a performance and physically enhancing drug.

Here is why. The roids guy can (and does) take both. You think a player of any sport that takes roids doesn't hit pain meds when hurting? Pshaw.

Let's start with this. We all ( and athletes too) take pain meds when we are hurting. We don't all take roids to get bigger and allow us to play better and longer. I say longer because I doubt Bonds is still around at 43 without it.

If you can name a pro athlete that has never taken a pain med you have just named a liar. Pain meds do not CREATE an unfair playing field like roids. Roids will kill you and if you have half a brain you don't take 'em. Those that do get temporarily ahead of the rest. Until their brain starts to rot.

What IS wrong in the pain meds issue is a team doc or private physician giving it out to a player who should not be playing with that particular injury. Which has probably only happened about a million times.

Good points, but not all of us take meds to relieve pain. Some of us grew up with a father who no matter the pain forced us to walk it off, even at times when we couldn't walk and that's how we've carried on our life.
 

cheesey

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I'm pretty sure Favre said that he didn't take the meds before a game. He was hooked on them, but wasn't really using them to keep playing. He got STARTED on them that way, but didn't use before a game. He was wrong for becoming addicted, got it straightened out, and went on from there.

Bonds might have been using roids when they were not banned, so theres nothing that can be done about that now. The only question I see is this...........how many of his 750 plus home runs would have been caught baseballs in the outfield had he not used the roids? We of course will never know. So to me that taints his record. There I'm sure are other cheaters that haven't got the attention he has now, and they have yet to be caught.
Wasn't it Sammy Sosa whose bat exploded a few years ago with cork flying all over? Makes you wonder how many guys have used that for some extra power.
 

warhawk

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warhawk said:
First of all I don't think we can compare a painkiller in any way to a performance and physically enhancing drug.

Here is why. The roids guy can (and does) take both. You think a player of any sport that takes roids doesn't hit pain meds when hurting? Pshaw.

Let's start with this. We all ( and athletes too) take pain meds when we are hurting. We don't all take roids to get bigger and allow us to play better and longer. I say longer because I doubt Bonds is still around at 43 without it.

If you can name a pro athlete that has never taken a pain med you have just named a liar. Pain meds do not CREATE an unfair playing field like roids. Roids will kill you and if you have half a brain you don't take 'em. Those that do get temporarily ahead of the rest. Until their brain starts to rot.

What IS wrong in the pain meds issue is a team doc or private physician giving it out to a player who should not be playing with that particular injury. Which has probably only happened about a million times.

Good points, but not all of us take meds to relieve pain. Some of us grew up with a father who no matter the pain forced us to walk it off, even at times when we couldn't walk and that's how we've carried on our life.

Then maybe there is some irony in the fact that my father was a head coach on the college level? You see he told me to walk it off AND THEN take the meds. Just kidding. Actually he would tell me to walk it off but if it was still hurting and the team doc said it was o.k. he would approve.

I'm sorry but after the first game your going to play the rest of the year in pain. You take stuff to knock it back a little. That's just the way it is. There's nothing wrong with that. Why macho thru it when you can cut it down some? Geez.

Every year by the second game one ankle, somewhere on one leg,a knee thigh or somethin', my back or ribs, and, either my neck or head, HURT. Now you can give me all the "walk it off" talk you want but you can bet your *** I'm taking SOMETHING FOR THE PAIN.

Football aint no walk in the park. It frigging hurts.
 

Zero2Cool

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I'm pretty sure Favre said that he didn't take the meds before a game. He was hooked on them, but wasn't really using them to keep playing. He got STARTED on them that way, but didn't use before a game. He was wrong for becoming addicted, got it straightened out, and went on from there.

Bonds might have been using roids when they were not banned, so theres nothing that can be done about that now. The only question I see is this...........how many of his 750 plus home runs would have been caught baseballs in the outfield had he not used the roids? We of course will never know. So to me that taints his record. There I'm sure are other cheaters that haven't got the attention he has now, and they have yet to be caught.
Wasn't it Sammy Sosa whose bat exploded a few years ago with cork flying all over? Makes you wonder how many guys have used that for some extra power.

Remember the video of the greatest super bowl teams? 96 packers were 13th. brett said he never took them before a game. he took them for recreation.

if i remember correctly. id have to watch it again to get his word for word comment though
 

Pack93z

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What year was it that Brett partial seperated his non throwing shoulder, was that 95?

At least I think it was Favre that had that or maybe I had one to many again :mug:
 

Zero2Cool

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What year was it that Brett partial seperated his non throwing shoulder, was that 95?

At least I think it was Favre that had that or maybe I had one to many again :mug:

If memory serves me correctly, it was a hit by Reggie White that dislocated it and it was a sparked a reason White joined the Packers. The reason being, the Packers had a helluva tough QB and White liked that a lot.

Oh, the point of the little story, that means it was 1992. :)
 

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Exactly Pack93. where do you draw the line for unfair advantage.


HGH is a legal supplement, just like Vicodin is a legal painkiller. both can help you gain an advantage in a way. Neither were illegal at the time they were being used... its end of story.

IF Barry is using anything illegal now, then punish him , ban him whatever.

HGH/ anabolic Steroids are not legal supplements. And even calling HGH a supplement is very misleading. In the case of Barry Bonds, they are quite illegal . Possession of either without a doctors prescription are considered felonies. Add to that any doctor who prescribes them without a warranted medical condition risks arrest and the loss of his license.

Comparing the effects of painkillers to HGH/steroids I find ridiculous.
 

cheesey

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Packnic said:
Exactly Pack93. where do you draw the line for unfair advantage.


HGH is a legal supplement, just like Vicodin is a legal painkiller. both can help you gain an advantage in a way. Neither were illegal at the time they were being used... its end of story.

IF Barry is using anything illegal now, then punish him , ban him whatever.

HGH/ anabolic Steroids are not legal supplements. And even calling HGH a supplement is very misleading. In the case of Barry Bonds, they are quite illegal . Possession of either without a doctors prescription are considered felonies. Add to that any doctor who prescribes them without a warranted medical condition risks arrest and the loss of his license.

Comparing the effects of painkillers to HGH/steroids I find ridiculous.
Good points Kewl.
 

CaliforniaCheez

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Again I will point out that at the most you are discussing 7 games in 1995.

7 games of Brett Favres career. During those 7 games nearly a dozen years ago Brett had 146 completions for 2046 yards and 21 touchdown passes.

7 games of Brett's career is not much. I would submit that the use of vicodin in 1995 was acceptable and using it during the offseason became abuse. A nagging/concerned wife got him to recognize and deal with the issue, voluntarily.
 

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I think the main point to consider is that both are nearing records. One achieved it while taking illegal performance enhancing drugs, while the other got addicted to legal drugs.

Favre used the vicodin to get through the week. He never used it on Sunday. If he did, it most definately would have impaired his performance....not enhanced it. Vicodin's effects are similar to alcohol.

It may have helped him get through the week which enabled him to play when he otherwise might not have been able to. HOWEVER, ALL players have vicodin at their disposal to get through the week. So, it was never to his advantage using too much vicodin. It became a recreation drug to him and then an addiction. So, since it was not banned, and didn't give him an unfair advantage, in no way should his record be tarnished.

Bonds on the other hand, totally illegal. inside and outside of the ballpark. He did not use it to recouperate. He used it to gain a permenant advantage over his competition. Roids have shown to improve strength, eye hand coordination, and quicken the firing of muscle nurons. All advantages when hitting a baseball. It is not like lifting weights, or running, or anything where others are encouraged to do the same.

Bonds deliberately used illegal substance to enhance his abilities
Favre used legal substance to get throught the week.

Apples.....scumbags..er..uh...oranges
 

cheesey

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Watching Bonds "talk" to reporters after a game is painful. If you block out the "F" word, he doesn't say anything. The guy is a putz. Roids or no roids, i don't like him, he's a 100% jerk. Maybe if he treated people decently, with a little respect. But thats not his way.
I can't WAIT till he breaks the record and then just goes away forever.
I think it's gonna be a rude awakening for him when the day comes when NO ONE cares what he's doing or what he has to say.
 

4thand26

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Packnic said:
i agree its not likely... but we dont know.

but again im not saying we should take anything from him at all....
or Barry for that matter.

im just saying the two instances are similiar.

How are they similar? I've read quite a bit and listened to quite a bit of interviews about Brett and his addiction and I've read quite a lot about Bonds and possibly taking steroids.

Brett had an addiction. Announced it to the world. Got help for it.
Bonds denies taking steroids. Announced his innocence to the world. Claims doesn't need help because he doesn't have a problem.

Has Bonds actually publically denied taking steroids? I dont follow it that closely. But I dont remember ever hearing him denying it. Seems like he doesnt talk about it.

My opinion is that he couldnt have been on enough pain killers if really hurt to play, and be effective. Now maybe, I guess, there was a game that he played like crap from the drugs, but still played. I doubt it, but maybe. That would be where the record would be questioned.

I think that the 'alleged' ******* around caused him to seek help more than the actual drug addiction.
 

dhpackr

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.

Bonds on the other hand, totally illegal. inside and outside of the ballpark. He did not use it to recouperate. He used it to gain a permenant advantage over his competition. Roids have shown to improve strength, eye hand coordination, and quicken the firing of muscle nurons. All advantages when hitting a baseball. It is not like lifting weights, or running, or anything where others are encouraged to do the same.

Bonds deliberately used illegal substance to enhance his abilities
Favre used legal substance to get throught the week.

Apples.....scumbags..er..uh...oranges


not to mention comparing a football player to a baseball player. how silly is that? brett has 250-300 lb defenders in his face all day, teams focused on #4 for years, and years, guys trying to put brett out of a game b/c if you put brett out , then teams know the packers have no chance to win.
Bonds is a filthy cheater, Brett Favre & Barry Bonds should not be said in the same breath.
 

Zero2Cool

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I think the thing that really sucks about all this 'did he' stuff about steroids is in the future when a player comes along and is jus phenomenal they will be typecast as a cheater.

People boast about the size of this and that over time. It's a known fact people change over time. To the magnitude of Bonds? I don't know. I do know that people get bigger with age and if you work hard, its muscle too.

I'm not proclaiming Bonds to be innocent, not a chance.

It just bothers me that some peoples foul an immoral ways are going to ruin the diligent efforts of others with the cynical comments that since they can not explain their phenomenal talent that it then indeed must be ... cheating.

edit, I always thought in this county you were innocent until PROVEN guilty. Unfortunately it seems you are guilty until proven innocent. Again, I'm not trying to defend Bonds. I never liked the guy much and he could be more guilty than the sky is blue. (ok its blue cuz of the water reflection, don't get technical)
 

vikesrule

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....the sky is blue. (ok its blue cuz of the water reflection, don't get technical)

The first thing to recognize is that the sun is an extremely bright source of light.
The second thing to recognize is that the atoms of nitrogen and oxygen in the atmosphere have an effect on the sunlight that passes through them.

There is a physical phenomenon called Rayleigh scattering that causes light to scatter when it passes through particles that have a diameter one-tenth that of the wavelength (color) of the light.
Sunlight is made up of all different colors of light, but because of the elements in the atmosphere the color blue is scattered much more efficiently than the other colors.

When we look towards the sun at sunset, we see red and orange colors because the blue light has been scattered out and away from the line of sight.


or, for Packer Fans :razz:

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Back to the topic of the thread.

I don't like Favre, never have, never will.
To me he is a Prima Donna in a humble man's disgiuse.

With that said, he is however a talented QB, and will go down as one of the best to ever play the game.
He made mistakes in his younger days, as have most of us. But he worked through those. And I admire that
I will take every opportunity to slam Favre, but this is not one of those.
To compare him to Barry Bonds is absurd.
 

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