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Bigger mistake by Ted Thompson:

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by FrankRizzo, Dec 19, 2011.

?

Which was the bigger mistake?

  1. Not drafting an OLB high to add some pass rush to go with Clay

    6 vote(s)
    28.6%
  2. Letting Jenkins go, believing Neal could fill his shoes

    15 vote(s)
    71.4%
  1. Southpaw

    Southpaw Endorphin Junkie

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    There is absolutely no consistency on defense. Which genuinely irritates me. We've yet to put together two back to back dominant defensive games. No a single fuking streak. We played shutdown against Minnesota then the following week lay an egg against Tampa. We played great against Oakland then we get embarrassed by Kansas City.

    It sickens me to death and I'm not so sure it's always the players but Capers has to take some of the blame too. It's about time they started playing better, in fact time is running out. We need to know where we stand before we go into the playoffs.
     
  2. Kitten

    Kitten Feline Cheesehead Staff Member Super Moderator

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    I went with Jenkins. I do realize having him back would not magically fix all our problems on D, but I think he can certainly help. I think he played so much better in our D program than with that mess of a D in Philly, I don't think we can fairly evaluate Jenkins stats and performance this year because you have to take into account what was going on with the Eagles. He also suffered some injuries since being there. I also think a large part of the reason our D played the way they did so far this season is a direct result of the absence of Jenkins and having to learn to adapt to him not being there and having to play with someone else. I never underestimate team chemistry and how used to each other these guys get. Jenkins was with us for a long time, I think his absence hurt us severely.
     
  3. Southpaw

    Southpaw Endorphin Junkie

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    Jenkins was a big loss for us. He may have had some health issues (like everyone Ted seems to draft) but when he was on the field he was an impact player at getting inside pressure and stopping the run. I would rather have the sure thing, than an unknown entity. I think Zombo and Walden are good at what they do, but even the most skilled pass rushing linebackers are going to struggle getting to the QB if there is no push from the defensive line.

    Our draft focus in 2012 should be ALL in the trenches. O-line, D-line and Linebacker. Games are won an lost in the trenches and that is ironically where we happen to suck the most. Fortunately though it hasn't caused us to lose a whole lot because we have Rodgers and some ball hawking defensive backs
     
  4. AmishMafia

    AmishMafia Cheesehead

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    There are problems with this team, of course. There has never been a perfect team and there never will be a perfect team (team wise, not record wise). The method that was used to build this team has also allowed some flaws to exist. Three facets of the TT method of building a team:

    1. Draft BPA. Take what the draft gives you and don't reach for players. We didn't need Rodgers, Jordy, Bishop, etc. when we drafted them. We drafted them because they were BPA.
    2. Don't spend for big FAs.
    3. Don't pay to keep older injury prone players.

    So you made a post that TT has made a mistake. What I, and other people are saying, is that the system has left a few minor holes on this team. The system has also produced a team that is 13-1. How can TTs method be wrong and a mistake, if it has created the most complete team in the NFL.

    So what part of the TT Method are you saying should be changed? TT should reach for players in the draft? You would prefer to have a mediocre WR than Rodgers? You'd rather have a mediocre CB than Jordy? You can't ignore the positives when you look at the method.

    Are you saying we should sign big name FAs? Would we better if we signed Lavaar Arrington or Al Hayensworth? Would we be in a better position if we couldn't have signed Jennings or Bishop to a long term deal because we signed those two? Or are you going to selectively say that signing a FA OLB is the first and only time that TT should have signed a FA?

    So we should have kept Jenkins? Jenkins is not performing very well and TT was very correct in not signing him. Jenkins has 0.5 sacks in the last 9 games. Is that really going to help us?
     
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  5. Southpaw

    Southpaw Endorphin Junkie

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    I'm sorry but just because we are 13-1 doesn't make us a complete team. We aren't a complete team. not by a longshot
     
  6. AmishMafia

    AmishMafia Cheesehead

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    I didn't say the Packers were complete, I even said they were far from perfect. What I did say is that they are the most complete team. That is they are closer to being complete than any other team. In most cases, by a long shot. In this day and age of free agency and salary cap, that is the best you can ask for.

    To now say that TT has made a mistake by not signing this FA or drafting this player, is a simplistic look at a very complex matter. I think there is this attitude that being a GM is easy, and building a winner is a decision and not skill. That TT should have decided, 'okay, I'm going to improve the pass rush'. He then looks at a sheet of college prospects and there is a column that says, 'Sacks as a rookie', then you just pick the guy with the highest number.

    What were our weeknesses last season? MLB?CB? Bishop, Tramon, and Shields stepped to the plate and did great. We won a Superbowl. So should we have gone out and brought in high $ FAs at these positions last year? No! We won a Superbowl. Should we have not drafted Newhouse and Bulaga and gone after inferior players at MLB and CB? Can you imagine where our OL would be right now without Newhouse or Bulaga going forward?

    What bothers me is this team is having its best season in the history of the Packers. They lose one game and the TT finger pointing is right there.
     
  7. FrankRizzo

    FrankRizzo Cheesehead

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    I just asked which postion here was the bigger mis-calculation, OLB or DE. One was counting on Walden/Zombo and the other counting on Neal replacing Jenkins. That's all.
    Perhaps if those 2 areas had hit instead of missed, this team would be a complete team?
    No harm in discussing something that's not all "we're great"... "we're undefeated".... "are we the best team ever..." etc.
    I would have loved to debate that stuff, after a Super Bowl victory in about 6 weeks.
     
  8. Bogart

    Bogart Duke Mantee

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    I don't think Jenkins was the only problem, you can tell Burnett's presence in pass rush is also missing.


    We went from a top 5 ranked defense last year to a bottom of the barrel 31st ranked defense.


    Those few games where the defense desperately got turnovers at the end to make stops, all that disappeared with the Giants game. When we needed the D the most, they let Eli Manning drive 95 yards to tie the game, leaving Nicks and Cruz wide open all over the place. After that game, I knew eventually we'd slip against a team that was average and let them beat us. But at least it was K.C. and not a team with an elite offense, cause then we really would have been blown out.

    More than half of the games this season, teams have had far more yards than us, which is embarrassing, and you can say we let teams have their way against our defense.


    If Bobby Knight was in Football, he would say this defense has "chicken **** coverage" cause that's what it is. Our coverage is leaving guys wide *** open everywhere, even after they've been targeted twice in a row (Vincent Jackson, opening drive in SD, he was targeted 3 in a row, including the TD. He was wide open most the game, having a career day) Eli Manning was keying on Victor Cruz and Hakeem Nicks the entire game, and when it came down to it, no one was covering them when we needed a stop the most.
     
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  9. FrankRizzo

    FrankRizzo Cheesehead

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    I appreciate the honest, fair assessment. Look, that doesn't make you a hater. In fact, it makes you a great fan IMO because A) you care, and B) you're smart to see these things, instead of just saying "well our record is the best so no problems, we're the best...."

    Now, we can't get Collins back, sadly. I love that guy, and always though he was our Ed Reed, minus the pub.
    That's a loss that can't be replaced as Peprah is just a guy. A great pass rush can cover it up. Alas, we don't have that, far from it.
    Can Capers magically create a good pass rush? No he cannot. He's thrown every known blitz there is already.

    It falls on the players, and mostly that's Mike Neal. I love Neal and his tweets from the gospel, but dammit he has to PRODUCE SOMETHING. He's stolen money as badly as Justin Harrell did.
    He's gotta be as healthy as any other DL are now... he should be fresher. He needs to step it up and beat some guys in the interior and wreak a little havoc.

    I'm going to tweet him to tell him to study some film of John Randle. If he had HALF the passion/intensity out there that Randle did, out defense would improve significantly immediately. He has the ability, otherwise Ted wouldn't have reached for him so soon in that draft when he was projected to go a round or two rounds later.
     
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  10. arrimike

    arrimike Cheesehead

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    Randall Cobb from Kentucky... I didn't know that Kentucky was a small school. Last time I looked, they played in the SEC. You could give Green Bay more props for picking him up and converting him to a receiver from a QB.
     
  11. NelsonsLongCatch

    NelsonsLongCatch Cheesehead

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    You missed key words in the post and made up your own post. He said "most complete team IN THE NFL". The Packers have the most complete team in the NFL by far. The Packers are best team in the NFL.

    The Packers letting Jenkins go was a salary cap move. In order to resign guys like Nelson and Sitton, Jenkins had to be cut. The Packers needed/need an pass rush OLB. They'll get one in the draft. The defense is what the defense is. Capers will create better mismatches come the playoffs.
     
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  12. Kitten

    Kitten Feline Cheesehead Staff Member Super Moderator

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    A team doesn't have to be perfect to be the best team in the league. It just means that they are still better than everyone else currently and despite their flaws. But our flaws are minimal compared to everyone else.
     
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  13. NelsonsLongCatch

    NelsonsLongCatch Cheesehead

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    :tup: Good posting
     
  14. Bensalama21

    Bensalama21 Ben

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    Kentucky isn't known for their football. And that was the point of me saying that... The Packers have gotten all of these receivers and made them successful.
     
  15. SpartaChris

    SpartaChris Cheesehead

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    I think losing Nick Collins is a much bigger deal than not having Jenkins or someone else at OLB. His unique skill set opens some doors to bring more random pass rushers, but also helps in coverage. I'm convinced that had he been with us for more than two games this season, our pass defense and pass rush would be much improved.
     
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  16. Fazeman

    Fazeman Setting The Pace

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    Maybe it's my age or something, but I reckon this kind of thread is why my post count is low. Not that there's anything wrong with these threads:confused:, they just look to border on anxiety, fear or the what ifs. Well, I've been there, done that and it's an unhealthy way of thinking. Once a fan learns when their tachometer hits red for whatever reason, they need to throttle down into the logic gear and cruise toward a confident understanding as to where their team and other teams currently sit.

    Last year, I attended the Redskins/Packers game and we lost. That was a downer, but I still walked out of FedEx Field, cheese head held high and brimming with confidence. For some of you fans, you will find St.John's Worry Wort cream on aisle 6.
     
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  17. Kitten

    Kitten Feline Cheesehead Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Well said, Fazeman. Sometimes people do worry needlessly and work themselves up over nothing. But I also think it's important to remember that those worriers are fans too. To be honest, I tend to think pretty much exactly like your post, but I also realize not everyone is like me. I don't thing the solution is to stop people from worrying, we'll never accomplish anything more than frustrating the hell out of ourselves. I think the solution is tolerance and acceptance of how someone else handles a situation.
     
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  18. greenandgold

    greenandgold I'm Dirty Hairy Callahan

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    The biggest mistake TT could make, is listening to people say what is his biggest mistake.
     
  19. Fazeman

    Fazeman Setting The Pace

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    I hear you loud and clear as to how us fans react in different ways. I've been down that frustrated road and it wasn't until I attended away games that I eventually learned to tone my emotions. Because I don't live in Green Bay (attended one game in '07), I traveled to closer cities when the Pack was visiting. The biggest and really funniest sense I got was from the reaction of those fans around me. They carried a degree of fear and loathing with the Pack and shouted some choice words at their own team. Like you said, everyone is different and I'll let it rest with that. Kind regards.
     
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  20. FrankRizzo

    FrankRizzo Cheesehead

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    True, he is a Pro-Bowl great player and the safety position is huge back there. But him getting hurt, flukey, certainly is no fault of Ted, as him gambling on Neal or thinking Zombo or Walden were good enough to help Capers pressure QBs.

    Zombo and Walden couldn't even sniff Orton, or hold their edge vs the run on the last drive.

    Collins was so underrated.... good call. I miss that guy so much. Pray his neck heals and he plays again. We already got screwed with Sterling Sharpe and T Murphy with neck problems. We don't deserve another for 50 years to be fair.
     
  21. Greenbayphil

    Greenbayphil Cheesehead

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    Dude the problems you have been stating have been happening all season long. This is not nothing new for everyone.
    Its time to embrace the defense, accept that it is what it is and get behind this team.

    So far we have won 13/14 games.
    I see know reason to start worrying now.
     
  22. Greenbayphil

    Greenbayphil Cheesehead

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    Agree 100%

    We should have also went out and got 7 probowl defensive linemen and linebackers what is all this **** and not giving us the best of the best?
     
  23. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    He also is the q/b back there
     
  24. SpartaChris

    SpartaChris Cheesehead

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    To be honest, I don't know why fingers need to be pointed at this point. We're the division champs headed to the playoffs with a first round bye, and after next weekend, we should be the top seed in the NFC. This feels a little like a witch hunt to me.

    As for Zombo and Walden, both had excellent campaigns with us last season. I see no reason why we couldn't and shouldn't have expected the same, if not more, out of them this season. I don't blame Ted for keeping the guys who had success with us last season. Hopefully an off-season and full training camp next season will help them improve their game, or at least give us a chance to evaluate them more thoroughly.
     
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  25. SpartaChris

    SpartaChris Cheesehead

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    Exactly correct. His experience in our backfield is highly valuable, and I believe having him back there would make a world of difference for this team. You can teach fundamentals all you want, but you can't teach instincts. I think we would have seen a marked improvement in this defense had Collins not been injured.
     

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