Bart Starr not on McGinn's Top 25

[JBlood]

I usually think McGinn's articles are well informed, but his list of top 25 QBs he's seen doesn't mention Starr: http://www.jsonline.com/sports/pack...rbacks-he-has-seen-b99195610z1-243155121.html

Here's why Starr should be considered not just one of 25, but the best ever: http://www.salon.com/2001/12/06/starr_6/

 

[Oshkoshpackfan]

Just remember....around here, some folks take McGinns word as the end all be all final word...... some people swing from that guys nutz hard core. I, however, find half the stuff he writes to be utter crap. That is why I love having my own damn opinion. Just the fact that he does not consider starr should kinda make ANYONE wonder what kind of sticky icky this dude is smoking.

 

[yooperpackfan]

I can't believe a fellow "Yooper"who saw his 1st Packers game in old City Stadium 3 years after I did and who followed and wrote about the Packers all those years could leave Bart Starr off his list.
His list is a.

 

[JBlood]

McGinn puts a lot of time in on player evaluations, is usually one of the most accurate predictors of first round draft picks, knows reams of stats, and isn't afraid to criticize our Packers when they need it. But this list is a puzzle to me. To put The Mississippi Missile in with his playoff stats shows the importance McGinn gives to winning vs the fantasy stats that he and Marino amassed in a game now dominated by passing.

 

[NOMOFO]

McGinn is a joke and always has been. A few years ago I emailed him about an insane article he wrote. He emailed back and admitted he knew little about the game but got his information from others.

 

[TJV]

I have great respect for McGinn, as do a lot of his colleagues. I saw first-hand the difference he made in covering the Packers when he first covered the team. McGinn has sources all around the league and has provided an outside perspective on the Packers (how others in the NFL assess Packers players, for example) that was absent previously. Of course that doesn’t mean he’s always right since no one is and IMO this list is another example of his being wrong. It is apparently news to Oshkoshpackfan that one can have respect for another while maintaining his own opinion.

BTW, I like this source regarding Starr’s career: http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/content/the-definitive-list-top-10-nfl-quarterbacks/6376/ It’s CHFF’s list of the top 10 NFL QBs.

When it comes to a combination of leadership, victories, big-game performances and statistical supremacy nobody – NOBODY – put together a more total package than Bart Starr, the greatest quarterback in NFL history.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

McGinn is a joke and always has been. A few years ago I emailed him about an insane article he wrote. He emailed back and admitted he knew little about the game but got his information from others.

That is probably the dumbest thing I´ve ever read on a message board in a long time, and not surprisingly it is coming from you. Do you really think anybody earning his paycheck covering football would admit to some random fan sending him an e-mail that he doesn´t know anything about the game???

I have a lot of respect for McGinn, but he´s wrong from time to time as well. Not including Starr in this list is one of these occasions.

 

[Oshkoshpackfan]

I have great respect for McGinn, as do a lot of his colleagues. I saw first-hand the difference he made in covering the Packers when he first covered the team. McGinn has sources all around the league and has provided an outside perspective on the Packers (how others in the NFL assess Packers players, for example) that was absent previously. Of course that doesn’t mean he’s always right since no one is and IMO this list is another example of his being wrong. It is apparently news to Oshkoshpackfan that one can have respect for another while maintaining his own opinion.

BTW, I like this source regarding Starr’s career: http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/content/the-definitive-list-top-10-nfl-quarterbacks/6376/ It’s CHFF’s list of the top 10 NFL QBs.

Yes, indeed that was huge news flash for me...... my gosh other people having their own opinion, wow, did this just come of age in 2014? No, wait.... you have been blasting sarcasm up peoples butts on here for the longest time, over their opinion...... so, where is the respect for someones opinion coming from you? Exactly, you dont have any yourself. HELLO pot, I'm kettle. Awww...... sorry, did I upset you by bad mouthing your BROmance guy Mr. McGinn? Get over yourself pal.

 

[NOMOFO]

That is probably the dumbest thing I´ve ever read on a message board in a long time, and not surprisingly it is coming from you. Do you really think anybody earning his paycheck covering football would admit to some random fan sending him an e-mail that he doesn´t know anything about the game???

I have a lot of respect for McGinn, but he´s wrong from time to time as well. Not including Starr in this list is one of these occasions.

lol

CAPTAINGOOGLE! You are A-W-E-S-O-M-E

 

[TJV]

Just remember....around here, some folks take McGinns word as the end all be all final word...... some people swing from that guys nutz hard core. ... That is why I love having my own damn opinion.

It is apparently news to Oshkoshpackfan that one can have respect for another while maintaining his own opinion.

Yes, indeed that was huge news flash for me...... my gosh other people having their own opinion, wow, did this just come of age in 2014?

No but apparently you haven't come of age yet.

BTW, right back at ya pal. You are accusing me of doing something you admit to (“HELLO pot, I'm kettle.”) - too funny. BTW, disrespecting McGinn says a lot more about you than it does McGinn.

 

[NOMOFO]

I have great respect for McGinn, as do a lot of his colleagues. I saw first-hand the difference he made in covering the Packers when he first covered the team. McGinn has sources all around the league and has provided an outside perspective on the Packers (how others in the NFL assess Packers players, for example) that was absent previously. Of course that doesn’t mean he’s always right since no one is and IMO this list is another example of his being wrong. It is apparently news to Oshkoshpackfan that one can have respect for another while maintaining his own opinion.

BTW, I like this source regarding Starr’s career: http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/content/the-definitive-list-top-10-nfl-quarterbacks/6376/ It’s CHFF’s list of the top 10 NFL QBs.

I wrote McGinn a few years ago when he made some insane comments about the Packers special teams. I asked him how the he## he was spewing the crap he was about it and after a few emails back and forth he told me point blank... almost everything he writes comes from "sources" including "opinion pieces". He made a comment about not knowing the game enough to have an opinion...or something like that. I couldn't even believe he said that.

Sooooooo...his source at the time had the opinion that the coaches held no blame for the special teams so that's what McGinn spewed. Problem was... he passed it off as his own opinion. That's the issue.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I wrote McGinn a few years ago when he made some insane comments about the Packers special teams. I asked him how the he## he was spewing the crap he was about it and after a few emails back and forth he told me point blank... almost everything he writes comes from "sources" including "opinion pieces". He made a comment about not knowing the game enough to have an opinion...or something like that. I couldn't even believe he said that.

Sooooooo...his source at the time had the opinion that the coaches held no blame for the special teams so that's what McGinn spewed. Problem was... he passed it off as his own opinion. That's the issue.

Just because you post it twice doesn't make this story anymore credible. Somebody got a "MOST RIDICULOUS POST OF ALL- TIME" rating button for me??? Please, somebody help me out.

 

[yooperpackfan]

I have great respect for McGinn, as do a lot of his colleagues. I saw first-hand the difference he made in covering the Packers when he first covered the team. McGinn has sources all around the league and has provided an outside perspective on the Packers (how others in the NFL assess Packers players, for example) that was absent previously. Of course that doesn’t mean he’s always right since no one is and IMO this list is another example of his being wrong. It is apparently news to Oshkoshpackfan that one can have respect for another while maintaining his own opinion.

BTW, I like this source regarding Starr’s career: http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/content/the-definitive-list-top-10-nfl-quarterbacks/6376/ It’s CHFF’s list of the top 10 NFL QBs.

Oh yes!
I like that article!

 

[Einstein McFly]

Have any of you guys heard the podcast on jsonline where he and Tyler Dunne discuss the top 25 QBs article? He makes it clear exactly why he left Starr off of it and based on the criteria that he used it makes perfect sense. People put WAY too much on how the team does when evaluating QBs, for better or worse. Marino is a hell of a lot better QB than Aikman or Bradshaw and you can include Starr in that list too. There are 21 other starters plus special teams that have to do their jobs to win.

Anyway, going by talent and how they would have fared on identical teams head to head, the list is fine. Besides, how many people here have actually seen Starr play and how many are going off of clip shows of the glorious Lombardi packers with soaring music in the background?

 

[Oshkoshpackfan]

^ did Marino ever win Miami a SB? Huh.... Hmmm..... guess that makes him that much better than starr. Certain "stats" are worth while, but no matter how damn good you are, if you didnt at the very least pull off a SB win for your team.....you don't get the mentions that others do. That is why I don't beleive Marino was better than starr. Marino can't hold Starr's jock strap when it comes to titles. Not to mention, Marino was pass, pass, pass pass pass..... all damn day. He had a trio of WR's in his prime to throw to all game long. Packers were a run team 1st with starr and starr still managed to win more.

 

[NOMOFO]

shhhhhhhhhhhhhh...listen for it... google..google...gooogle gooogle! GOOGLE GOOGLE!!! GOOOOGLE!!!!!

The chants are deafening! The crowd is going nuts for this guy! Can we get him to come and take a bow?!!

 

[yooperpackfan]

Have any of you guys heard the podcast on jsonline where he and Tyler Dunne discuss the top 25 QBs article? He makes it clear exactly why he left Starr off of it and based on the criteria that he used it makes perfect sense. People put WAY too much on how the team does when evaluating QBs, for better or worse. Marino is a hell of a lot better QB than Aikman or Bradshaw and you can include Starr in that list too. There are 21 other starters plus special teams that have to do their jobs to win.

Anyway, going by talent and how they would have fared on identical teams head to head, the list is fine. Besides, how many people here have actually seen Starr play and how many are going off of clip shows of the glorious Lombardi packers with soaring music in the background?

I bet I've seen Bart Starr play in more games while sitting in Lambeau Field or County Stadium than you have seen Packers games.
And you are wrong, the list is not fine.

 

[JBlood]

Have any of you guys heard the podcast on jsonline where he and Tyler Dunne discuss the top 25 QBs article? He makes it clear exactly why he left Starr off of it and based on the criteria that he used it makes perfect sense. People put WAY too much on how the team does when evaluating QBs, for better or worse. Marino is a hell of a lot better QB than Aikman or Bradshaw and you can include Starr in that list too. There are 21 other starters plus special teams that have to do their jobs to win.

Anyway, going by talent and how they would have fared on identical teams head to head, the list is fine. Besides, how many people here have actually seen Starr play and how many are going off of clip shows of the glorious Lombardi packers with soaring music in the background?

I was lucky to be in high school and college during the 60s and saw a lot of Starr. Anyone who thinks we would have won 5 Championships without him is delusional. Starr's strengths were his play calling (QBs other than Paul Browns' called their own plays) and his incredible ability to avoid mistakes--especially in Championship games. His teammates credit Starr for their rings more than any other single player. For McGinn to list Bert Jones, Randall Cunningham and Warren Moon ("5 Grey Cup Championships", as if that means something) above Starr is simply ridiculous.

 

[TJV]

Besides, how many people here have actually seen Starr play and how many are going off of clip shows of the glorious Lombardi packers with soaring music in the background?

I saw Starr play, occasionally in person, mostly on TV. I hummed the soaring music while watching, does that count?

Seriously, yes he was surrounded by a great team and had the benefit of a great coach. But along with many other great attributes, Starr was incredibly mentally tough. He called the plays; he was Lombardi on the field. He was the one who called those long bombs on third and short. I’m not sure how other QBs would have been able to cope with Lombardi’s domineering personality. The bigger the game, the more he protected the football. The bigger the game the more clutch he was. The winning drive of the Ice Bowl was a great example of his leadership. In addition to the “ball-busting cold”, he didn’t have all of his weapons for that game – it was the end of the Lombardi era. With everything at stake, he led them down the field and in those conditions, didn’t fumble and didn’t throw an incompletion, let alone an INT.

If you haven't read the link to the CHFF article, check it out. It's very analytical, no music at all unless you hum:

And, lest we forget, Starr was the best postseason passer in NFL history, as evidenced by his record 104.8 playoff passer rating and 1.41 percent interception rate, also a postseason record (CHFF readers are well aware of the importance of not throwing picks in the playoffs). Starr played in an era when 80 was a decent passer rating. Yet he still performed more efficiently in the playoffs than folks such as Montana, Brady, Manning, Marino, Young and ... well, anybody, ever.

 

[NOMOFO]

I bet I've seen Bart Starr play in more games while sitting in Lambeau Field or County Stadium than you have seen Packers games.
And you are wrong, the list is not fine.

My God do I ever agree with you. Randall Cunningham over Bart Starr? Seriously? ... I saw Randall Cunningham play many times over his career and sorry senator ... you are no Bart Starr.

 

[Einstein McFly]

^ did Marino ever win Miami a SB? Huh.... Hmmm..... guess that makes him that much better than starr. Certain "stats" are worth while, but no matter how damn good you are, if you didnt at the very least pull off a SB win for your team.....you don't get the mentions that others do. That is why I don't beleive Marino was better than starr. Marino can't hold Starr's jock strap when it comes to titles. Not to mention, Marino was pass, pass, pass pass pass..... all damn day. He had a trio of WR's in his prime to throw to all game long. Packers were a run team 1st with starr and starr still managed to win more.

Yup. Starr's teams were probably better than any that Marino ever played on. Does this make every player on Starr's teams better than every one that Marino every played with? Of course not, as you already admitted with Marino's wideouts. But somehow the success of the team extends to the QB. I've always wondered what idiot sports writer or broadcaster started this BS. You should probably answer the question of whether you think Aikman and Bradshaw are better than Marino. What about Flacco? I guess Eli Manning is better than Brett Favre then? Come on. This is ridiculous. Do you really think that if you put Starr on Marino's teams that they'd have won more games? Do you really think that if you put Marino on Starr's teams that they'd have lost more? If you cloned a team and put them across from each other and the only difference was Starr on one and Marino on the other, do you think Starr would really be competitive? Imagine you're actually on the field with the two guys and they're throwing routes and you have a million bucks on the line. Who would you pick? Put away the homerism for a second the way McGinn did and you'll see the answer is totally obvious.

 

[Oshkoshpackfan]

LMAO.... ME....homer? Gimmie a f*cking break pal..... I am a critic more than half the time, go read my posts.

Your explanation if filled with nothing but a bunch of "IF" .....if this, if that..... well.... what actually happened? Starr and his TEAM won WAY more trophies than MARINO and his TEAM. Starr did it in a different era, with less rules that favored the offense. Don't get me wrong, Marino was a damn good QB, but just not good enough to take the extra step needed to get the trophy. Is Marino an all time great, yes indeed....is he ahead of Starr.... NO DAMN WAY.

 

[ShockwaveRider]

Besides, how many people here have actually seen Starr play and how many are going off of clip shows of the glorious Lombardi packers with soaring music in the background?

Not only did I actually see Bart Starr play, I pretended to BE Bart Starr for nearly all of my seemingly interminable childhood.

Five NFL Championships in the Ironman era? What more can be said?

I 100% agree with the CHFF list.

 

[NOMOFO]

I wish people could attempt to make their points without pulling out the "you're a homer" crap.

 

[grignon]

I understand Mcginns point. His rankings are based on gut feeling alone. Starr didn't have a bazooka arm; He didn't routinely throw the ball through keyholes-that's why he had so few interceptions. He did not often throw the ball 20 times in a game. His iconic play is a quarterback sneak.

But for me, Starr is one of the best of all time.
Starr epitomized the "field general". His grasp and execution of strategy and tactics was unparallelled. Most of the guys on McGinn's list had more "WOW" factor. For some, it may have even hindered their success. Starr never put his ego or excitement ahead of the team goal.