B.J Goodson

[HardRightEdge]

Ragland is an old school downhill linebacker who evidently dropped 10 lbs. to improve his 40 time, while not providing much tape of coverage skills beyond 10 yards from the LOS. How about considering a less pricey option in the old school mold if that's what's thought to be needed. I don't necessarily agree that's the need, unless Barrington's recovery is questionable. Even so, the roster is 2 deep at ILB with Barrington and 1 deep without him in terms of starter quality. This roster needs at least 2 fresh faces at the position.

How about giving B.J. Goodson a look?

Here's the NFL.com summary, evidently written before the Combine:

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2016/profiles/b.j.-goodson?id=2555522

Here are his Combine numbers which suggest a better athlete than what's presented in that scouting report:

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=105650&draftyear=2016&genpos=ILB

Those are pretty good athletic measurable for a mid-to-low pick run stuffer, even if he's a bit raw.

The following link includes a comprehensive scouting report with clips that admittedly reads at times like it was written at his agent's office:

http://thedraftwire.usatoday.com/2016/03/06/2016-nfl-draft-scouting-report-clemson-lb-b-j-goodson/

The clips are illustrative while the commentary is to be taken with a grain of salt. It bugs me seeing a guy chopping steps, which goes to the point of several of scouting negatives from other sources. Still, there is something to work with here at a modest cost.

Prior to the Combine he was generally pegged as a day 3 draftee all the way down to a possible UDFA. His stock probably went up after the Combine, but it's not as though he's going to fly up the board; more like bottom half of day 2 at best.

 

[Vrill]

Hey HRE, I was curious what your overall take on Darron Lee is? He is that ILB from Ohio State. Have you seen his tape yet? Have any thoughts or opinions?

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[Deleted member 6794]

Ragland is an old school downhill linebacker who evidently dropped 10 lbs. to improve his 40 time, while not providing much tape of coverage skills beyond 10 yards from the LOS. How about considering a less pricey option in the old school mold if that's what's thought to be needed. I don't necessarily agree that's the need, unless Barrington's recovery is questionable. Even so, the roster is 2 deep at ILB with Barrington and 1 deep without him in terms of starter quality. This roster needs at least 2 fresh faces at the position.

How about giving B.J. Goodson a look?

I would be fine with drafting Ragland although he doesn't perfectly fit the Packers needs because he would most likely present a significant upgrade over Barrington and Ryan.

I don't see the need to add someone like Goodson though.

 

[Mondio]

He looks like a safety to me, Lee

 

[HardRightEdge]

Hey HRE, I was curious what your overall take on Darron Lee is? He is that ILB from Ohio State. Have you seen his tape yet? Have any thoughts or opinions?

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These clips are too cut up to get a good look, being more music video than football tape. That's not a slam on you; you have good intent and bring what's available. The tapes worth looking at, though, are the full-game spotlight tapes where you see every play from the guy over the course of full games. Preferably, you'd want to look at more than one...guys have good days, guys have bad days.

That said, here's a full-game spotlight against Hawaii last year, a team that looks to have a fairly complicated and coherent passing scheme when the QB isn't throwing interceptions. I'll tell you what I see in this tape. I think I saw a Michigan St. game tape on youtube as well. Somebody else can take a shot at that one.

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Before that, though, let's look at the Combine numbers to get an athletic profile:

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=127564&draftyear=2016&genpos=OLB

Yes, he's very fast at 4.47 at 232 lbs. Good broad jump in keeping with the sprinter speed. 3-cone suggests more straight line speed than agility. 17 lifts together with the weight reinforces the picture from the measurables and eye test (which I'll get to) of a strong safety/ILB tweener. When looking at the tweeners, you have ask which end of the coverage/run defense spectrum they sit. We went over Killebrew elsewhere...he's more a coverage guy than a run defender, though clearly not the football player you see with Lee. Lee is more the opposite, falling on the run defense end of the spectrum.

Looking at the Hawaii tape, start with the very first play. He's covering what looks like a RB split out in man coverage. His feet get stuck a little on that inside release and the separation allowed ends up being very generous. This is the kind of thing the Packers need to fix. It's also the kind of thing, when looked at with the 3-cone time, kind of reinforces the straight-line profile.

Further, there are a few snaps here where he's in short zone coverage with the ball thrown in his proximity. There's the old bromide that when you're in zone coverage, sooner or later you actually have to cover somebody. Only the very, very, best players can go counter to that. Some very few guys can sit down, see the patterns develop, read the QB's eyes, anticipate the throw, and sucker the QB into throwing the ball to the spot where the defender is already moving. Think Woodson in his prime when playing in the box.

What you mostly see from Lee here in short zone is sitting down and reacting late. He's not getting on anybody, but he's not anticipating the throw either...kind of taking up space and giving away short seams.

He fits more in the downhill, attacking end of the tweener spectrum as a flow-and-strike guy. He's no Ragland, though, in the run game, Ragland being a guy with old school sharp run instincts who brings more of a load, if not the recovery speed that Lee has.

Where Lee really pops, and why he's seen as a first round player, is his blitzing off the edge. It's special. His snap anticipation and first 2 steps are super quick in more than one play in this tape. That aspect of his game must be attractive to the Packers from the standpoint of the zone blitz, which OSU ran on at least one occasion here.

Lets review the zone blitz concept, which Capers brought with him from Pittsburgh. It's a sucker play in the Capers bag of tricks. In the 3-4, An ILB or DB sets up on the edge to blitz. That would be Lee. NFL QBs are taught to recognize it and throw to that side into the area vacated by the blitzer, particularly if the OL is short handed on that side or they have an empty backfield. The second element of the zone blitz is having the OLB on that side drop into the vacated zone instead of edge rushing, Peppers for instance. Or just as likely it could be a D-Lineman (as with Raji's famous pick six). The idea is the QB is tricked into thinking the spot is undefended. If the ILB/DB blitzer (Lee) gets off clean and fast, the QB is more likely to make the snap pat decision to thrown to the "vacated" area that is actually not vacant at all. It's an INT opportunity, or it could be a sack if the QB doesn't see it coming from the blind side or he recognized the guy dropping and just pulls the ball down.

The Packers don't run it a lot, given it's an opportunistic sucker play. I'm sure it's brought out based on film study identifying an opponent tendency vulnerable to being suckered. With Lee, you can't help but think they'd use it more often.

Now, you're not going to draft a guy in the first round just to run an infrequent, specialized play. But it's not something to be overlooked and certainly a check mark in the plus column.

Switching gears, he's not the same player when blitzing up the middle. On the couple of occasions you see him try it in this clip, he gets caught up in the trash and engulfed pretty quickly. It goes to the athletic measurables and the eye test...he's best in space with the play in front of him.

If you put it all together, I think what we're looking at here is a weak side 4-3 OLB who doesn't have to line up over the TE for coverage, can step up to the edge to blitz from that side where the O-Line is short handed, and has the speed to pursue from the backside. He may not have the one-on-one physicality to battle in close quarters in holding the edge, but he's got enough moxie to not be a particular liability in that role. Somebody's going to think they can clean up his man coverage for when teams isolate a RB on him. They may be right...only time will tell.

I think he's gone to a 4-3 by pick 20, maybe higher, particularly a defense that plays an attacking style. Somebody is going envision a way to put a special emphasis on that edge rush.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I would be fine with drafting Ragland although he doesn't perfectly fit the Packers needs because he would most likely present a significant upgrade over Barrington and Ryan.

Agreed. If we're talking about an ILB in the first round, Ragland would be my choice if not an optimal fit, assuming he isn't already snapped up. I can't say I like any of the other candidates as decent value for that pick.

As previously discussed, and an opinion in which you would appear to agree, Ragland would be a fallback if all of the D-Linemen of choice are already off the board. He'd be a relatively safe pick, even if the complete 3-down package is not quite there. You know what you're getting, you're projecting him to the position you see on tape, and he looks to be NFL-ready for the job on week 1.

We have to keep perspective. True 3-down ILBs who show a lot of strengths in the run/pass/blitz/360-degrees-of-the field equation, particularly for the 3-4, while having no disqualifying weakness, are rare and tend to go in the top 10 when they happen to appear.

Absent that, finding balance with the strengths and weakness of who is already on the roster has to come into play. To think the Ragland pick will really pan out, one would have to share my optimism in Ryan improving his coverage skills, or the Pack picks up one of those tweener SS/ILBs with an emphasis on coverage skills lower down the draft board, perhaps a guy a little to slow for 3-down SS duty (which is how he falls down the board in the first place), but still fast enough to handle most TEs for situational/matchup rotations.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I don't see the need to add someone like Goodson though.

The need materializes when you find yourself in a position of having to make lemonade out of lemons.

Let's say we get the D-Linemen we want in the first round, and Ragland, Lee, or whoever else one might like is gone by the second round. At that point you have Ryan, maybe Barrington and maybe not, and some guys on the bubble you'd rather not see on the roster at all.

There are more needs than there are day one picks, and the cap space to snag a starter-level FA just isn't there without some compromise you'd rather not make.

With respect to Barrington, it's gotten to the point in orthopedics where ACL injuries (except the really bad ones) are more easily fixable than season-ending foot injuries. One can assume he'll be back 100%, but there's no basis for it. We'll have to see where he's at.

Even if Ragland is taken in the first, if Barrington can't go, you still need another guy. In fact, you need a 4th. ILB even if you have Ragland, Ryan and Barrington.

I'll say this much. Seeing the way Palmer overran holes or fell down in them, while not even being able get his depth right in his zone drop, I think you would have been happy to see Goodson out there instead last season, regardless of the warts you might identify. I would also not expect him to go 2 full games in a row without making a tackle. I think it's worth noting that in the Palmer/Mathews combo, you had two guys with little experience at the position, and it showed.

The point of presenting guys like Goodson is not to bring some optimal solution; it goes the point of gaining options, depth, and maybe some rotational play at a modest cost. It's a backstop against having to put an incompetent player on the field.

You could easily see a remaining problem or two at the position by round 3.

There's something to be said for looking at mid-to-low round guys for serviceable depth. There's more to life than day 1 of the draft.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

The need materializes when you find yourself in a position of having to make lemonade out of lemons.

Let's say we get the D-Linemen we want in the first round, and Ragland, Lee, or whoever else one might like is gone by the second round. At that point you have Ryan, maybe Barrington and maybe not, and some guys on the bubble you'd rather not see on the roster at all.

I agree that I would like the Packers to add two inside linebackers. I'd rather have them both excelling in coverage though.

 

[TeamTundra]

Sorry to hijack this thread, but what do guys think of
Missouri ILB Kentrell Brothers as our 2nd round pick?

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Sorry to hijack this thread, but what do guys think of
Missouri ILB Kentrell Brothers as our 2nd round pick?

Brothers might be an upgrade over Barrington and Ryan defending the run but he for sure wouldn't address the Packers need of a coverage inside linebacker. No, thanks.

 

[Vrill]

Scooby Wright is another possible sleeper.

 

[Patriotplayer90]

Scooby Wright is another possible sleeper.

He's probably the opposite of a sleeper. A lot of guys are really high on him and will draft him higher than his physical attributes project him, or they'll let him slide by for the same reason. But everyone knows who he is and what he's done.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Scooby Wright is another possible sleeper.

Wright is another inside linebacker not fitting the Packers needs.

 

[Curly Calhoun]

Since it is not readily apparent to me how a new thread might be created in "Draft Talk", I'll post this here and the mods can move it at their leisure.

Ragland is an old school downhill linebacker who evidently dropped 10 lbs. to improve his 40 time, while not providing much tape of coverage skills beyond 10 yards from the LOS. How about considering a less pricey option in the old school mold if that's what's thought to be needed. I don't necessarily agree that's the need, unless Barrington's recovery is questionable. Even so, the roster is 2 deep at ILB with Barrington and 1 deep without him in terms of starter quality. This roster needs at least 2 fresh faces at the position.

How about giving B.J. Goodson a look?

Here's the NFL.com summary, evidently written before the Combine:

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2016/profiles/b.j.-goodson?id=2555522

Here are his Combine numbers which suggest a better athlete than what's presented in that scouting report:

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=105650&draftyear=2016&genpos=ILB

Those are pretty good athletic measurable for a mid-to-low pick run stuffer, even if he's a bit raw.

The following link includes a comprehensive scouting report with clips that admittedly reads at times like it was written at his agent's office:

http://thedraftwire.usatoday.com/2016/03/06/2016-nfl-draft-scouting-report-clemson-lb-b-j-goodson/

The clips are illustrative while the commentary is to be taken with a grain of salt. It bugs me seeing a guy chopping steps, which goes to the point of several of scouting negatives from other sources. Still, there is something to work with here at a modest cost.

Prior to the Combine he was generally pegged as a day 3 draftee all the way down to a possible UDFA. His stock probably went up after the Combine, but it's not as though he's going to fly up the board; more like bottom half of day 2 at best.

Scouting report:

NFL.com has released its prospect review of former Clemson linebacker B.J. Goodson and graded him as a 5.42 on their prospect scale. 5.30-5.69 is categorized as a player that will be a backup or eventual NFL starter.

"Physical, two-day linebacker with the desire to scrape downhill and strike what he sees. Goodson's lack of pursuit speed and overall athleticism could be troubling to teams, but his toughness and consistency of effort will appeal to teams who value force in the middle," NFL.com said. Goodson could figure on the third day of the draft as a backup with eventual starter potential."

As a senior, Goodson led Clemson in tackles with 104 and also had 14 tackles for loss, 5.5 sacks and two interceptions. After the productive season, he was named third-team All-ACC from the coaches and second-team All-ACC from the media.

http://www.tigernet.com/update/player/NFLcoms-scouting-report-BJ-Goodson-22496


NFL Draft Countdown lists him as their #27 OLB prospect.

Make of that what you will.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Scouting report:

NFL.com has released its prospect review of former Clemson linebacker B.J. Goodson and graded him as a 5.42 on their prospect scale. 5.30-5.69 is categorized as a player that will be a backup or eventual NFL starter.

"Physical, two-day linebacker with the desire to scrape downhill and strike what he sees. Goodson's lack of pursuit speed and overall athleticism could be troubling to teams, but his toughness and consistency of effort will appeal to teams who value force in the middle," NFL.com said. Goodson could figure on the third day of the draft as a backup with eventual starter potential."

As a senior, Goodson led Clemson in tackles with 104 and also had 14 tackles for loss, 5.5 sacks and two interceptions. After the productive season, he was named third-team All-ACC from the coaches and second-team All-ACC from the media.

http://www.tigernet.com/update/player/NFLcoms-scouting-report-BJ-Goodson-22496


NFL Draft Countdown lists him as their #27 OLB prospect.
to
Make of that what you will.

I linked to the nfl.com scouting report you quoted in the post you responded to, so you can figure I already made of it what I will. As noted, I believe it was written before the Combine.

You may not have read to the bottom of my post; life does not end after Day 1 of the draft, and this team needs 2 ILBs, or maybe 3 depending on Barrington's status. Season ending foot injuries have a history of being problematic.

The worst thing in Goodson's tape, not specifically noted in the reports you cited, is he chops steps, as I noted previously. That's a concern. There are things that can be improved with coaching, pad level for instance in many cases, and things that are much harder to fix, one of which is how a guy moves, the first thing one should be looking at in tape, because that goes more to who he is than coachable technique. Maybe I caught him on bad day when he was being confused and hesitant leading to the chop; probably not.

Still and all, you don't run across many guys who can run 4.69 at 242 lbs. while doing 30 lifts with a 34.5" vertical and a 7.05 shuttle in the lower half of the draft, while actually having played college ball at the position he projects in the pros. Half the 27 guys NFL Draft Count graded higher couldn't break 4.8 on a good day, and half the guys who can break 4.7 look like tweeners.

As a two-down player, Goodson will smash you in the mouth. And there's enough athletic material to project some upside. Even if all you get is a serviceable 2-down player for the bench who can play some special teams, that's value in the bottom half of the draft. That's better than Nate Palmer, for instance.

 

[HardRightEdge]

While looking at Lee's Hawaii tape above, I noted that there was also a full game spotlight tape of his play against Michigan St. Since there are only so many hours in the day, with too many spent here right now as it is, I suggested somebody chip in with a review of that tape.

Picking one tape, I should have gone with Michigan St. in the first place where the O-Line competition is at a level Hawaii didn't match. As it is, I've now looked at that Michigan St. tape since nobody else has commented on it:

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If there was any doubt in my mind before, there isn't any now: this is not an ILB.

In fact, this tape is not very good on the whole, and raises questions about my earlier assessment that somebody would take him in the top 20 for 4-3 OLB. In any case, 4-3 OLB is his NLF position, just as it was in college.

In this tape he gets pushed around and engulfed between the tackles, and as in the Hawaii tape gets lost in the trash blitzing up the middle.

Conversely, he shows that exceptional burst off the edge for the blitz game (his best characteristic) and his edge contain is fundamentally sound even if he's not quite physical enough to work off a clean block. You do seem him sliding of the OT in edge contain into a cutback which is no small thing and goes to the point of recognition and quickness. His coverage is not good, but with that speed somebody will look past it as something that can be coached up and put to work at 4-3 OLB.

Drafting him for ILB, even as a weak side coverage guy, would do both the team and the player a disservice.

 

[Vrill]

Tell me what you see in Eric Striker, HRE:

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Hes one of my favorite players in this draft. Swiss army knife type player.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Tell me what you see in Eric Striker, HRE:

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Hes one of my favorite players in this draft. Swiss army knife type player.

Perhaps another time. Even being retired, with time on my hands, I've been neglecting some basics of daily life. Watching the tape is quick, writing about it is not.

I'm about to do a write-up on Austin Johnson and that's going to be about it for the next day or two.

 

[Patriotplayer90]

I linked to the nfl.com scouting report you quoted in the post you responded to, so you can figure I already made of it what I will. As noted, I believe it was written before the Combine.

You may not have read to the bottom of my post; life does not end after Day 1 of the draft, and this team needs 2 ILBs, or maybe 3 depending on Barrington's status. Season ending foot injuries have a history of being problematic.

The worst thing in Goodson's tape, not specifically noted in the reports you cited, is he chops steps, as I noted previously. That's a concern. There are things that can be improved with coaching, pad level for instance in many cases, and things that are much harder to fix, one of which is how a guy moves, the first thing one should be looking at in tape, because that goes more to who he is than coachable technique. Maybe I caught him on bad day when he was being confused and hesitant leading to the chop; probably not.

Still and all, you don't run across many guys who can run 4.69 at 242 lbs. while doing 30 lifts with a 34.5" vertical and a 7.05 shuttle in the lower half of the draft, while actually having played college ball at the position he projects in the pros. Half the 27 guys NFL Draft Count graded higher couldn't break 4.8 on a good day, and half the guys who can break 4.7 look like tweeners.

As a two-down player, Goodson will smash you in the mouth. And there's enough athletic material to project some upside. Even if all you get is a serviceable 2-down player for the bench who can play some special teams, that's value in the bottom half of the draft. That's better than Nate Palmer, for instance.

I'm sold on his attributes on paper translating to an NFL player, I just haven't found any highlights or tape. I agree on Lee, not an ILB.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I'm sold on his attributes on paper translating to an NFL player, I just haven't found any highlights or tape.

There's a link in the first post of this thread that includes some clips. I get that these "essays" are not quick reads and people skip over stuff. Like I said there, the analysis in that link is a over-baked in places, but at least you get the clips. Keep in mind the Combine measurable when projecting how he fits. I wince at the step-chopping, which goes to the performance issues, but this is not going to be high pick and there's material to work with.

 

[Patriotplayer90]

There's a link in the first post of this thread that includes some clips. I get that these "essays" are not quick reads and people skip over stuff. Like I said there, the analysis in that link is a over-baked in places, but at least you get the clips. Keep in mind the Combine measurable when projecting how he fits. I wince at the step-chopping, which goes to the performance issues, but this is not going to be high pick and there's material to work with.

I like what I see, I just wish I could see more. I saw him get off blocks and hold his own at the LOS like Ragland. I'd love a Luke Keuchly, but that won't happen. I'd be glad for them to give this guy a shot.

 

[HardRightEdge]

II'd love a Luke Keuchly.

Wouldn't we all. I'd like a Willis even more. I'd take a Bobby Wagner in a heartbeart. Bowman? Of course. There hasn't been anybody coming out since Keuchly that matches up with these guys, indicating how infrequently they come along.

This is not intended as a slam, but even thinking about wanting a Keuchly is just a distraction.

 

[Patriotplayer90]

Wouldn't we all. I'd like a Willis even more. I'd take a Bobby Wagner in a heartbeart. Bowman? Of course. There hasn't been anybody coming out since Keuchly that matches up with these guys, indicating how infrequently they come along.

This is not intended as a slam, but even thinking about wanting a Keuchly is just a distraction.

That was more of a shield against the people criticizing his speed or coverage skills.