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Atheism

Discussion in 'The Atrium' started by Lynch, Jul 1, 2007.

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  1. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    All I did was do a search for Bible says Earth is round, and that came up..

    ( Since you asked for a verse I looked it up for you, cuz it seems you didnt have time to do it?? )

    Some interpret to mean its round, some interpret to mean its like a "diner plate"

    I can see how both are valid points..I personally never knew of the Bible saying Earth was round, so was good researching stuff for me to do..

    After looking into it more, Bible makes more claims Earth is not really round..

    I still believe and trust in GOD..I just think that a lot of stuff is taken to literally, and there is no room for different explanations..

    And the reason I believe in GOD?? My Uncle on his death bed, in the LAST minute he was alive, said and I quote
    With that last word he let out a HUGE exhale of breath and passed away

    ~~~


    for me that was proof enough that GOD is real..Every one has different reasons why they believe, or do not believe...Everyone will debate dinosaurs living with man, floods, Adam, Eve, apes till they find out for themselves, FOR SURE by passing on, and nothing is there, or there is a GOD



    Just because people do believe in GOD should be no reason to attack their "schooling" or lack there of, or their FAITH...

    and on the other side of the coin, people who do not believe in GOD, should not be forced to try and SEE THE LIGHT..
     
  2. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    Oh really? Then i guess HE proved my point. Did any of these humans with different skin tones grow wings to be able to fly away from predators? Or gills so they could swim under water to catch fish to eat? Nope...........all of them are just humans. NO "evolution", just things already programed into us. Adaptations NEVER change what the creature already is. You might get different wing colors on moths, or a thicker winter coat on a whitetail deer that lives in a colder climate then a deer in texas. But it is already in their DNA. NOTHING has been added by evolution. Needed traits already in them come out for survival.
    If you are trying to use that as "facts" to blow me away, it was a pretty poor attempt.
     
  3. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    Anubis said:Which god do you speak of? Jahweh? Vishnu? Cthulhu? You really should be more specific. None of the aforementioned gods have anything in common with each other, or each other's belief systems.

    BTW: A 6000-year old manuscript that has been rewritten and revised hundreds of times is not "proof" of anything more than the various copies of the Necronomicon floating around the net (I am partial to the Simon version, myself). If you wish to use such as proof, please cite the original text. Anything else is no more valid than Lovecraft's Cthulhu Mythos would be."

    I speak of God of the Bible.
    So, a 6000 year old manuscript means nothing to you, but a 170 year old theory means everything? Especially one that has shown NO proof since it was written?

    Anubis said:"
    Actually, in the 15th century there were no schools. People were purposely kept ignorant by the state so they would not question the Church's ultimate authority (well, that and the fact the Feudal system basically made them slaves). Don't belive me? Research what the Church thought of Gutenberg when he started to mass-printing the bible on his printing press. Here's a hint: they were not happy at all he was spreading the 'holy word' (in German) to say the least."

    And todays government run education also wants to keep the people ignorant, by "preaching" an unproven theory, which is only made up to take GOD out of people's lives. Why don't they take the lies out of the textbooks? I saw a kid's textbook that shows a whale skeleton, and points to two little bones and says "Imagine whales walking around! It happened!" And then saying the bones are left over from the whale having a pelvis. Fact is, the bones are anchor points for muscles that make it possible for whales to reproduce. It NEVER had anything to do with a "pelvis". Or how about the peppered moth? If you know about it, there's no need for me to write how that was proved to be a hoax. (Even though last i saw, the display was still up in the Milwaukee Public Museum as "proof" of evolution).
    Evolution is filled with words like "imagine" and "might have". Yup, you HAVE to "imagine" for any of it to make sense.

    Anubis said:"
    Do you even have a clue what you are talking about? I would wager you have never read the Origin of the Species, nor ever taken a course in basic anthopology. In fact, it appears you have about as many qualifications to dispute YEARS od scientific research as I do to claim I am a nuclear physicist. Seriously, this is truly quite comical."

    I have to admit, i only skimmed through "Origin of Species". Evolution is not science. It's a vivid imagination, thats all.

    Anubis said:"
    While we are on the topic, what about St. John 8:44 where Christ calls the Jews the children of Satan: "Ye are of your father, the Devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do." By your logic, I guess Hitler wasn't such a bad guy after all. "

    Once again, you have done what so many people that want to attack the Bible do. Take things out of context. Jesus was talking to SPECIFIC people that were rejecting him. If you reject him, you ARE a child of the devil, not of God. He was not condemning all Jews. But you are right, people that want to do harm to others, like Hitler, could use this out of context as an excuse to kill Jews. Oh......but read Hitler's "Mein Kampf".........he was a BIG follower of Darwin and evolution. He felt Jews, and blacks were closer to "pure ape", and thus he was doing evolution of man a BIG favor by taking those not as highly evolved people out of the gene pool.

    Anubis said:
    "You mean like the brainwashing church has been doing for hundreds of years? Isn't this the basis for "Catholic guilt"? It sure has made the Vatican rich, hasn't it?"

    First, you keep mentioning "the church"........which church do you mean? Catholic, mosque, temple?
    Obviously you have had a bad thing happen with the Catholic church. And I agree, many in the name of "religion" have done terrible things. Which as i stated before, if I am right and there IS a God, they will pay for.
    But i'm talking about a relationship with God, NOT with a "religion." Theres a BIG difference.

    Anubis said:"
    Science is not a religion, as it is not based on dogma. Science can evolve as new theories are put forth and proven. You religion, on the other hand, is based on ridiculous ideas from hundreds if not thousands of years ago, and is unable to keep up with progress lest you alienate the core of your followers."


    Thats the problem i have.............evolution is a theory, and if you want to teach it as that, fine. But it is taught as TRUTH to the children, when there is NO proof. Whole human-like beings have been produced with the only proof being a tooth. Which later turned out to be the tooth of a pig.
    The skeleton of "Lucy" has been used to produce a whole "missing link" too. When this skeleton, which was in no way complete, was used to "build" what a live being was supposed to look like, they had her standing upright with feet identical to present day humans. Even though NO FOOT BONES WERE EVER FOUND. So it was pure imagination to make her that way, and NO where do they say in their displays that they "made up" what the feet looked like. It's passed off to unsuspecting people as being factual, when alot of it is once again, imagination.

    Anubis said:"
    Have you ever heard of the Galapagos Islands? I didn't think so."

    As a matter of fact, i have! Thats where Charles Darwin, in 1835, noted that there were 13 different species of finches on the islands. Thats what he based alot of his theory on. He felt the were evolving.
    Oh........and by the way........it's now over 170 years later, and guess how many species of finches there are on the islands?
    Yup.............13!!! Isn't evolution amazing???

    Anubis said:"
    OK... So how can you validate the age of these alleged "drawings" if you cannont validate the age of dinosaur bones? How do you know when these drawings were made? Could they not have been made a year ago? A decade? A century? Or are you trying to argue that you can carbon-date the cave paintings, but not the bones of dinosaurs? Or are you actually saying that man has existed on this planet for well over 350 million years?

    Christ-on-a-stick... Have you ever even heard of geology? You know, the science of the earth and it's layers? How come dinosaur bones and fossils have been found at depths from the Jurassic and Cretaceous periods, but man's bones have not? Why has no modern human skeleton EVER been found that predates the Upper Paleolithic? Why am I wasting my time explaining this to you? You have absolutely no proof whatsoever to back up your ludicrous claims. You simply keep repeating the same tomfoolery and telling me (and by extesion the entire scientific community, university graduates and ayone else with an education) that WE are all wrong, and YOU are right. Sorry dude, but on a bet between you and the rest of the world, the smart money is on the world.

    Just remember: Nothing happens contrary to science, only contrary to our understanding of it. If you wish to debate this further, please use some kind of facts to substantiate your arguement."

    I don't believe the drawings are "millions of years old", only thousands.
    And bones in the ground, how do you know when the person, or animal died? Hundreds, thousands, millions of years ago? You trust carbon dating to prove it? Even though they carbon dated living creatures as being dead millions of years?
    Like i have stated before.........how can the earth be "millions of years" old? The sun would have burned it to a crisp "millions of years ago".
    You can place your "bet" on the world if you want. I'll take my chances with God.
    To be able to draw a diagram and come up with a story about how things MIGHT have happened is not science. And that is all evolution has.
    Seeing as you brought up the fossil record, how come there are NO transitional species found in the fossil record? Not even ONE! There should be a HUGE amount of them being found if evolution is true.

    And by the way, my IQ is 123 and I'm a college graduate. Just because i refuse to believe in your evolution theory does not mean i'm stupid.
    Your persnal attack doesn't surprise me though. It's VERY consistant with any evolution believer i have ever come in contact with. When they feel anyone DARES to question their blind faith in this theory, they almost ALWAYS go for the personal attack.
     
  4. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    Hi again LT!
    Adaptation, which is MICRO EVOLUTION is real and happens. But thats adaptive characteristics developing within a species, NOT getting a whole NEW species, which is what evolution says happens. These characteristics are already in our genes. Nothing new is added, and we can only change so much. We can't grow wings or gills. We can grow extra arms or legs, but these are mutations of information already in our genes. And they have never been beneficial mutations. They are usually called birth defects.
     
  5. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    Oh.....and Anubis, i read you link "Proof of Darwin's theory in reality".

    Here's a clip from it:"Professor Rick Shine of the University of Sydney was impressed by the findings: "It's an exciting result," he told ABC Science Online. "It reaffirms, if you like, a faith in the power of evolutionary processes to overcome the differing constraints in different types of animal groups and end up with the same general result."

    Two people can look at the same thing and come up with a different view.
    If you put your faith in evolution, you see this as some great proof of evolution.

    I see it as a God who was pretty darn smart in creating these creatures to make sure they survived. They have been doing this since they were created. Just because man now suddenly REALIZES it, it suddenly becomes "proof" of evolution?
     
  6. PackFanInSC

    PackFanInSC Cheesehead

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    Cheesey,
    You forgot one.

    Anubis said,
    "To answer the original question, I guess I would be an athiest. I do not believe in gods, leprechauns nor the Tooth Fairy neither."


    He claims not to believe in Gods, yet his name and avatar are of the the Ancient Egyptian God of the Dead -- which later became the guardian of the dead and the one who transported them to his father Osiris -- who was then the God of the Dead.
     
  7. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    Ah! Thank you Packfan!!!
     
  8. Lynch

    Lynch Cheesehead

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    [align=left]Such as you Cheesy will never win the Nobelprice
    If u said what said in my country u would only be laughed at and be concidered as mentaly retarded in some way, I dont say I think so but people who claims that the earth are 6000 years old and all that are often crazy. They often kill people which happen in a cult in a small village.

    What I mean is you would never be taken seriously in europe perhaps in the mideast were they think the same and you know how it is like there[/align]
     
  9. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    So what you are saying is, if the majority think something is true, anyone that believes otherwise is retarded? And if they DARE to believe other then the majority, they might be murdered? Yup.....thats one sure fire way to get people to believe what you preach. KILL everyone that thinks otherwise. Thats a real "scientific" approach. When they taught that the earth was flat, they ridiculed anyone that said it was round. The "majority" turned out to be wrong there too.
    A large majority of people in the Mideast believe that if you are not of their religion, they should murder you. Thats in NO WAY thinking like me. I don't believe that you should be killed because you refuse to believe in God.
    Have you ever heard of the animal called the lemming? When one panics and starts running, the others follow.........even running right off a cliff to their ultimate death. If you want to follow the "majority" off a cliff, thats your choice. I'm just trying to stop you is all. If you think I'm retarded for really caring about you, so be it. I'm NOT trying to win an argument here. I only care about eternity, and where I and you will spend it.
    If you choose not to believe me, thats your choice. I ONLY want whats best for you. If that makes me retarded, i can live with that.
     
  10. bozz_2006

    bozz_2006 Cheesehead

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    Well Lynch, what makes America great is that people here can think whatever the hell they want, and are encouraged to do so, with no worries of being called "mentally retarded". Do you even know what a mentally retarded person is? In America, people like you who go around insulting those who they disagree with are called "social retards" because they haven't learned how to interact with people.

    I'm saying strong things in this post because regardless of what he believes about God, Cheesey is obviously one of the kindest people I've ever come in contact with, and instead of disagreeing with him in a civil manner, you resort to calling him retarded, and that isn't right. You know it isn't. So just chill out a little and take it easy.
     
  11. Pack93z

    Pack93z You retired too? .... Not me. I'm in my prime

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    I think it is about time to lock this thread... IMO... it is only going to go downhill from here.. it was a great thread but sooner or later the debate is going to become personal...

    I think it is at that point... I don't want to see something said that will not or cannot be taken back...
     
  12. MontanaBob

    MontanaBob Cheesehead

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    Good suggestion Pack93z....I was going to take time to read the whole thing, but realized I've never read eight pages in my life...let alone on one topic.
     
  13. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    Thank you Bozz!
    I am truely humbled by your comments!
     
  14. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    I think that horse has already left the barn! :lol:
    But it's ok, i'm used to people looking down their noses at me!
     
  15. trippster

    trippster Cheesehead

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    I don't think the thread needs to be locked, yet. :pop:

    Let's keep the personal insults at home or at least in the PM's :wink:

    I have enjoyed the conversation between you two Cheesy and Anibus. Both of you have brought to the table very good morsels of thought.

    I certianly am not a paleonthologist, anthropologist, or an archeologist. Following you two and your conversation required a conversational road map! I am impressed Anibus, with your knowledge of this particular field and that your have done some studying in this area.

    Cheesy, equally, I am impressed with your knowledge base too! your retorts have been excellent.

    Believing does not make anything so. truth does. Logic helps us conceptualize and know the truth.

    I am a christian. that is truth. I know I am. In my heart, I believe Jesus is who he claimed. Now, is there a possibility I could be wrong? Sure. But my logic tells me that he was who he claims. My logic tells me there is a supreme being. That we were planned. DNA in itself is a mapping of the being. Well? who mapped it?

    But the most damaging thought I have about evolution is this. And if you can Anibus, please answer it as no other evolutionist has.

    Evolution claim: All living things started as oemebas (sp?)

    Question: Where and how did we attain eyesight/vision?
    Evolution is based on evolving because of need. So how did we know we needed to see? How did we know that if we had eyes we could see? How did we know that air was transparent so we could see if we had eyes? How did we know what type of organ could produce vision?

    Knowledge of the need and knowledge of the possibility of vision had to have come from a third party. (God?)


    Anibus, you stated, "You simply keep repeating the same tomfoolery and telling me (and by extesion the entire scientific community, university graduates and ayone else with an education) that WE are all wrong, and YOU are right. Sorry dude, but on a bet between you and the rest of the world, the smart money is on the world."

    Being pretty assumptious now aren't you? In fact, many, MANY educated people with loads of education not only believe in God, but Jesus too.

    As for the scientific world? the more they discover, the more scientists believe in a supreme being.

    Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
    Einstein is probably the best known and most highly revered scientist of the twentieth century, and is associated with major revolutions in our thinking about time, gravity, and the conversion of matter to energy (E=mc2). Although never coming to belief in a personal God, he recognized the impossibility of a non-created universe.
    The Encyclopedia Britannica says of him: "Firmly denying atheism, Einstein expressed a belief in "Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of what exists." This actually motivated his interest in science, as he once remarked to a young physicist: "I want to know how God created this world, I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details." Einstein's famous epithet on the "uncertainty principle" was "God does not play dice" - and to him this was a real statement about a God in whom he believed. A famous saying of his was "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."


    Furthermore, here are some of our better known scientists that highly thought of in their scientific communities around the world, university graduates with masters and doctorates:

    What is their take on Universe by design? Let's see.

    Fred Hoyle (British astrophysicist): "A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. The numbers one calculates from the facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost beyond question." (2)

    George Ellis (British astrophysicist): "Amazing fine tuning occurs in the laws that make this [complexity] possible. Realization of the complexity of what is accomplished makes it very difficult not to use the word 'miraculous' without taking a stand as to the ontological status of the word." (3)

    Paul Davies (British astrophysicist): "There is for me powerful evidence that there is something going on behind it all....It seems as though somebody has fine-tuned nature’s numbers to make the Universe....The impression of design is overwhelming". (4)

    Paul Davies: "The laws [of physics] ... seem to be the product of exceedingly ingenious design... The universe must have a purpose". (5)

    Alan Sandage (winner of the Crawford prize in astronomy): "I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing." (6)

    John O'Keefe (astronomer at NASA): "We are, by astronomical standards, a pampered, cosseted, cherished group of creatures.. .. If the Universe had not been made with the most exacting precision we could never have come into existence. It is my view that these circumstances indicate the universe was created for man to live in." (7)

    George Greenstein (astronomer): "As we survey all the evidence, the thought insistently arises that some supernatural agency - or, rather, Agency - must be involved. Is it possible that suddenly, without intending to, we have stumbled upon scientific proof of the existence of a Supreme Being? Was it God who stepped in and so providentially crafted the cosmos for our benefit?" (8)

    Arthur Eddington (astrophysicist): "The idea of a universal mind or Logos would be, I think, a fairly plausible inference from the present state of scientific theory." (9)

    Arno Penzias (Nobel prize in physics): "Astronomy leads us to a unique event, a universe which was created out of nothing, one with the very delicate balance needed to provide exactly the conditions required to permit life, and one which has an underlying (one might say 'supernatural') plan." (10)

    Roger Penrose (mathematician and author): "I would say the universe has a purpose. It's not there just somehow by chance." (11)

    Tony Rothman (physicist): "When confronted with the order and beauty of the universe and the strange coincidences of nature, it's very tempting to take the leap of faith from science into religion. I am sure many physicists want to. I only wish they would admit it." (12)

    Vera Kistiakowsky (MIT physicist): "The exquisite order displayed by our scientific understanding of the physical world calls for the divine." (13)

    Robert Jastrow (self-proclaimed agnostic): "For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries." (14)

    Stephen Hawking (British astrophysicist): "Then we shall… be able to take part in the discussion of the question of why it is that we and the universe exist. If we find the answer to that, it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason - for then we would know the mind of God." (15)

    Frank Tipler (Professor of Mathematical Physics): "When I began my career as a cosmologist some twenty years ago, I was a convinced atheist. I never in my wildest dreams imagined that one day I would be writing a book purporting to show that the central claims of Judeo-Christian theology are in fact true, that these claims are straightforward deductions of the laws of physics as we now understand them. I have been forced into these conclusions by the inexorable logic of my own special branch of physics." (16) Note: Tipler since has actually converted to Christianity, hence his latest book, The Physics Of Christianity.

    Alexander Polyakov (Soviet mathematician): "We know that nature is described by the best of all possible mathematics because God created it."(17)

    Ed Harrison (cosmologist): "Here is the cosmological proof of the existence of God – the design argument of Paley – updated and refurbished. The fine tuning of the universe provides prima facie evidence of deistic design. Take your choice: blind chance that requires multitudes of universes or design that requires only one.... Many scientists, when they admit their views, incline toward the teleological or design argument." (18)

    Edward Milne (British cosmologist): "As to the cause of the Universe, in context of expansion, that is left for the reader to insert, but our picture is incomplete without Him [God]." (19)

    Barry Parker (cosmologist): "Who created these laws? There is no question but that a God will always be needed." (20)

    Drs. Zehavi, and Dekel (cosmologists): "This type of universe, however, seems to require a degree of fine tuning of the initial conditions that is in apparent conflict with 'common wisdom'." (21)

    Arthur L. Schawlow (Professor of Physics at Stanford University, 1981 Nobel Prize in physics): "It seems to me that when confronted with the marvels of life and the universe, one must ask why and not just how. The only possible answers are religious. . . . I find a need for God in the universe and in my own life." (22)

    Henry "Fritz" Schaefer (Graham Perdue Professor of Chemistry and director of the Center for Computational Quantum Chemistry at the University of Georgia): "The significance and joy in my science comes in those occasional moments of discovering something new and saying to myself, 'So that's how God did it.' My goal is to understand a little corner of God's plan." (23)

    Wernher von Braun (Pioneer rocket engineer) "I find it as difficult to understand a scientist who does not acknowledge the presence of a superior rationality behind the existence of the universe as it is to comprehend a theologian who would deny the advances of science." (24)

    Carl Woese (microbiologist from the University of Illinois) "Life in Universe - rare or unique? I walk both sides of that street. One day I can say that given the 100 billion stars in our galaxy and the 100 billion or more galaxies, there have to be some planets that formed and evolved in ways very, very like the Earth has, and so would contain microbial life at least. There are other days when I say that the anthropic principal, which makes this universe a special one out of an uncountably large number of universes, may not apply only to that aspect of nature we define in the realm of physics, but may extend to chemistry and biology. In that case life on Earth could be entirely unique." (25)

    Antony Flew (Professor of Philosophy, former atheist, author, and debater) "It now seems to me that the findings of more than fifty years of DNA research have provided materials for a new and enormously powerful argument to design." (26)

    Frank Tipler (Professor of Mathematical Physics): "From the perspective of the latest physical theories, Christianity is not a mere religion, but an experimentally testable science." (27)


    Are they idiots?
     
  16. tromadz

    tromadz Cheesehead

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    Who gives a damn what those dirty Swedes say!

    And to the Atheists, I think the real question is "What will you call yourselves?"

    1. United Athesit Alliance
    2. Unified Atheist League
    3. Allied Atheist Alliance

    My vote goes to Allied Atheist Alliance. It has 3 A's. it is most logical. Now I'm going to go eat dinner off my tummy.

    K, I've posted in this thread. You can lock it now.
     
  17. carol k

    carol k Cheesehead

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    Lynch, you made the statement that in your country Cheesy would be laughed at. Is that a mature country? People who laugh at other people are showing-in reality-how immature they are.

    I was just going to write and say how intelligent I thought Cheesy was, and then I came across your post. I do think that the difference between your country and Cheesy is that he is more mature, and in my belief, he is very intelligent.

    I do not think that people who believe in the Creator should be made fun of just as people should not make fun of those who do not believe in the Creator.

    I don't agree with you, Lynch, but I would not laugh at you or make comments about your beliefs as some on here have made dergoatory comments about Catholicism.

    So, in a lighter note, let's all go to church, synagogue or whatever, and pray to whomever we beleive in that the Pack trounces the dirty birds on Sunday

    Sorry, if that sounded bad, but I just thougth everyone needs to lighten up a little.
     
  18. Heatherthepackgirl

    Heatherthepackgirl Cheesehead

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    The bottom line is: Some believe in God and some that dont believe. We aren't the ones to judge anyone IMO.

    All I do know is I believe in God and that is all that matters. I am not going to change anyones minds that dont believe so I dont even try.
     
  19. PackFanInSC

    PackFanInSC Cheesehead

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    Lynch,
    No one here has laughed at or ridiculed you for your beliefs. If anything, I feel sorry for you. You have referenced that most people in your country (or Europe, for that matter) do not believe in God. That is sad but does not make the existence of God any less true.

    Several pages ago, you said that God is good for people in crisis but that, in your country, you have not had a crisis in a long time and God had been abandoned. Or something to that effect. There are a couple of points I would like to make on that.

    Could it be that God has spared your country that "crisis"? If so, would that not be all the more reason to acknowledge Him?

    Or, more likely, your country is more like the Israelites. They would fall away from God and get into trouble as their enemies attacked until their king would lead them back to God. He would protect them and they would serve Him -- for a while. Then, as they became complacent, they slowly drifted away again, only to find themselves in trouble again, then they return to God and start the cycle over.


    While your country may have abandoned God, you can be assured that He has not abandoned you. At that time in which you are ready, He will, like the Father of the Prodigal Son, will welcome you back.
     
  20. Zombieslayer

    Zombieslayer Cheesehead

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    Although I disagree with Cheesey on evolution (I believe in evolution, and can explain any questions anyone has, but I'd rather do it in person), Cheesey's hands down my favorite person on this site so I won't get into this argument. Him and Vikes are always making me laugh.

    God bless you all, no matter what you believe. Yes, I'm a Christian, and yes, you can believe in evolution and be a Christian. One of my evolution teachers was a Christian as well. If you read On the Origin of the Species, you'd see Darwin was a Christian too. He was only trying to figure out God's plan, that's all. I'm sure when Darwin got to Heaven, God filled in the blanks.
     
  21. bozz_2006

    bozz_2006 Cheesehead

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    I'm in agreement with you Zombieslayer. Believe it or not, I'm actually attending seminary, meaning when my studies are complete (3 more years!) I will be an ordained Lutheran pastor... who believes in evolution
     
  22. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    you go to martin luther college?
     
  23. Fuzznuts

    Fuzznuts Cheesehead

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    They're teaching hate. Don't fall for it. Fox News, Hannity, Limbaugh, etc., etc.

    This articles pretty much nails it.

    Don't listen to the hate mongers in the media that want to divide and perpetuate war, they are the false prophets usurping the name of God in the name of Patriotism--"the last refuge of the scoundrel".

    You're supposed to do what Jesus would do, and what he taught aren't you, and not what some politician or fascist talking head in the media tells you to do?


    Gang Signs: Abortion, Evolution, Homosexuality
    by bernardpliers
    Thu Sep 06, 2007 at 01:49:23 PM PDT

    Why is it that abortion, evolution, and homosexuality form a block of issues for the GOP base? I will cut to the chase - these are not religious issues, these are issues of tribal identity.

    We know that the people who worry the most about these issues seem to have little real regard for children, little interest in science, and they like to get freaky at least as much as anyone else. And despite their self proclaimed religious motivations, surveys show their knowledge of religion is surprisingly poor.

    On these issues, they can not be swayed by rational persuasion, religious debate, or even the naked hypocrisy of their leaders. Despite the shaky foundation of their belief system, their resistance is surprisingly powerful. These issues move Americans to violence but barely register in other other countries.

    Meanwhile, European Islamists get upset over things that seem comical to us, like, well, comics for instance.

    Why do these issues move people to violence, while they barely register to the rest of us? Why do kids shoot each other hand signals they flash on the street? These are gang signs, this is how people establish their group identity and declare their willingness to use violence against anyone that threatens their turf or the unity of their group.

    bernardpliers's diary :: ::
    The issues don't really matter, because tribes and gangs are all about territory, turf, controlling resources, and bringing overwhelming intimidation against people who flash the wrong signs, the wrong tattoo, or the wrong circumcision.

    Even though this is supposedly all about religion, do these people understand the details of their churches' doctrine in the way that church doctrine has preoccupied most religions? No, they are not defining their religious identity by their churches rules, they are defining their belief by how they treat others. And if they go to another town, they don't have to worry about finding another church that teaches the same doctrines, they just have to find people that share their tribal identity based on Abortion/Evolution/Homosexuality.

    Interestingly enough, this is how Christianity got started. It wasn't about volumes of scripture to memorize or a complicated set of new rules,it was about how they treated others. Jesus told people to be reserved and to treat their neighbors as they would treat themselves, not to go peeping in their windows and looking for reasons to persecute them.

    Early Christians struggled to be inclusive and bring in people from other tribes who literally were from other tribes in an epoch where tribe and clan mattered above everything else. Being inclusive was the only way to grow. Christ's followers were also bound together by the persecution they faced at the hands of the Romans and others.

    Tribalism in the modern era still depends on its sense of persecution and isolation. Because Christians are the majority, Dominionists must create an enemy to unite them. And so they take an approach opposite to Christ's inclusiveness, peeking through windows and looking for minorities to persecute. The Anti Abortion/Evolution/Homosexuality tribe goes to absurd lengths to prove that it is a persecuted and isolated group that must struggle to protect the safety of its members in a hostile world.

    In the absence of real enemies, a tribe will readily create imaginary enemies to unite them, and without concrete evidence of persecution, the tribe must often create an enemy with supernatural powers. The Puritans of Salem united in ritual violence against witches, the boys in Lord of The Flies formed fierce tribes against the imaginary Beast, the Nazis fought their imaginary all powerful Jewish Conspiracy, and the Anti Abortion/Evolution/Homosexuality tribe are fighting the Homosexual Agenda, the Secular Humanists, the Liberal Media, and the Dirty Hippies who never grew old. It is this battle that gives the tribe its identity.
     
  24. Lynch

    Lynch Cheesehead

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    [align=left]Glad that someone spoke well of Darwin for change. Anyway I dont belive in god becuase that theres nothing that says that he does no signs no proof to philosphic things at all. ´He doesnt exist unless he is sadistic or something and I think it´s time to hide behind a religion or something that obvious isnt there. No higher power can save us from decises, poultion, overpopulation, its only ourselves who can change that. Pure and simple; we can only save humantiy from it´s own doom. If we cant be able to build a colonies on the moon or mars during this ceuntry or in nearest 5o years will ther be too many living on this planet.

    Why? becuase we can cure nearly every decise, we save everyone who can be save and people live longer. Thats god but it aint natural, we have gone beyond evolution we control it ourselves. The population has increased by 100% the last hundred years and is predicted to inrease withmore then 400% this century.

    I just mean that its god will or that he should save us is just hiding from our own responsibility. Its only we who can save the earth and otherwise will I belong to the las generation if we dont fix the invorement, decrease the polution of our air and water and make plan hoe´w many children who can be born every year

    one thing more that hasnt naything to do with religion. USA may be one of the powefullest countires in the world but not the wealthiest, and by wealth I mean how good the people have it. In my country is no-one poor if we compare with ur country. Those who are poor here, they live in quite good apartments they get free medical care and everything(like everone else get too) and if they on dont have a job do they get money every month so they can live quite well until they get one. Theres no one in my country who live as the poor people do in the U.S. [/align]
     
  25. bozz_2006

    bozz_2006 Cheesehead

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    I go to Luther Seminary. Luther college is just that; a college. I already went to college. Seminary comes after college. That's right... 8 years of training to become a Lutheran pastor! my mom is always like "you could've been a doctor!" hahahaha.
     
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