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Atheism

Discussion in 'The Atrium' started by Lynch, Jul 1, 2007.

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  1. bozz_2006

    bozz_2006 Cheesehead

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    i have seen the example with the moths, and i don't think that is pushed as evolutionary theory (i could be wrong!). i think that example is to show survival of the fittest. much like how i feel way out of place living in the city. i'm not suited for it. I am in agreement with you concerning the addition of DNA. DNA is not changed, but we all have DNA and it's all different. Just like how different species of animals are specially bred to bring out certain traits and to mask others, i see this happening in the world too. if all the white moths are being eaten, their are fewer of them to breed, so the black moths are the majority of hte breeding population, hence more baby black moths are born. right? survival of the fittest.
     
  2. PackFanInSC

    PackFanInSC Cheesehead

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    Lynch,
    Have you actually read the links at Answers In Genesis that I have given you? Responses to many of your questions are listed there -- even your more recent ones about the Earth being 6000 years old and the "vestigial" organs or organs that are leftovers of prior ancestors. Those 2 particular articles are even highlighted on the front page today. (Coincidence??... Or Divine Intervention?? Hmmmm...)

    It is a difficult thing to look at the opposite side of what you believe and to acknowledge that there may be credence to it. It tears at the very core of who we are. As it begins to slip away, we cling desperately to any detail that would allow our beliefs to hold up. I understand that.

    Lynch, we are not trying to attack you. As you were looking for an avenue through which to rebel against what you felt were abuses in the way you were taught, a convenient path opened up to you. It became easier for you to deny the existence of God rather than our need for Him. The problem with that is that denying His existence does not make Him not exist. God is a jealous God -- and wants us to have a relationship with Him. He is pursuing you -- pleading for you to open yourself up to Him. Let Him show you just how real He is.
     
  3. NDPackerFan

    NDPackerFan Cheesehead

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    wow...profound post Z2C. :rotflmao:
     
  4. Lynch

    Lynch Cheesehead

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  5. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    Lynch, the major problem with ALL these so called "dating techniques" is this. How do they know that the "radioactive decay" is the same in these rocks now as it was say, even 5000 years ago? They take alot for granted in order to try to prove their theories.
    The atmosphere of the earth is VERY different now then it was just a few thousand years ago. I posted awhile back how the bubbles found in amber (petrified tree sap) was found to have oxygen levels ALOT higher then our air today. Back in biblical days humans lived to be over 900 years. The air was more pure, and i'm sure other things in the atmosphere were alot better then they are now. Scientists are measuring things as they are NOW, and taking it for granted that they ALWAYS were like that.
    Here is an example: If you walk into a room and see a candle burning, how can you figure out how long it will take for the candle to burn down to nothing? You can figure out how long it is, and calculate how fast it is burning, then come out with a pretty accurate mathmatical figure to say how long it will take to burn down to nothing. Thats pretty much what scientists do now.
    But how do you know how long the candle was to begin with, or how long it was burning? Well, you can do the math backwards from the point where you came into the room, and just go back, right?
    That takes ALOT for granted. You came into the room, but have no idea how long the candle was to begin with, when it was lit, or if it was burning at the same rate BEFORE you came into the room. If there was less oxygen in the room before you came in, it would have been burning slower then when you are doing your calculations, right? And it STILL can never tell you when it was lit in the first place.
    Scientists that want to prove evolution take all those things for granted, because it fits what they WANT to come up with. If it didn't, they wouldn't use it.
    And of course i have shown you where carbon dating can't be trusted at all. Yet it still is used, and trusted as "true" back to 40,000 years. Even though live animals have been carbon dated as being dead for thousands of years. Or dead animals have been carbon dated on different parts of their bodies and dates thousands of years different have come up on the same animal. So how can anyone trust something that by it's own use proves it's in no way reliable?
     
  6. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    Hello again Bozz!
    The moth example was on display (I think it still is, but i haven't been to the Milwaukee Museum for several years) and was listed as proof as evolution in their "evolution" display.
    As far as "survival of the fittest" i really don't believe in that either. I think alot of it is "survival of the luckiest". Either way though, it still is in no way an animal evolving into another creature. Species can procreate within their own species, but you can't cross a cat with a squirrel.
    I look around, and if evolution is real, we SHOULD be able to see living examples of it all around us. But there is not even ONE example.
    They took fruit flies and did all kinds of things to them, to try to make them "evolve". Some had longer wings, some had shorter wings, some had NO wings. NONE of the changes were beneficial. So the scientists decided that "The fruit fly had evolved as far as it can." Uh.....how about......the fruit fly was as God made it, and thats why they couldn't change it. No matter how they looked at it, truth was, all of the changes they did see were in their DNA in the first place. Nothing was added, but some were taken away (as the flies with no wings showed).
    Really, if evolution was true, then no animal should ever go extinct. It SHOULD be able to evlove into something else to survive, right? But that doesn't happen either.
     
  7. PackFanInSC

    PackFanInSC Cheesehead

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    Even if the Earth were to be "Millions and millions" of years old -- which I do not believe --- how would that negate the original question as to if God exists? Whether a person believes in a literal 6 days of creation or believes that the process of creation took many eons and that Moses just phrased his account in Genesis to make it simpler for the people to understand, it would not change the fact that we did not just happen upon this planet.

    God placed this ball of rock in this precise place in the universe for a reason. Had there been a different combination of elements in the atmosphere, would we have been able to survive? If the Earth's orbit had been closer to the Sun, would the growing seasons be shorter and hotter so we could not produce food to survive or conversely, if the orbit were further away, would not the temperature of the Earth then be unbearably cold? That speaks to me of a Divine plan -- that a Divine Intelligence put us here at this time and this place in the universe for a reason -- to have a relationship with Him. And He reveals that plan and His desire for that relationship to us through the Bible. And I choose to call that divine intelligence -- God.
     
  8. bozz_2006

    bozz_2006 Cheesehead

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    cheesey, i wouldn't disagree that it could be more appropriately referred to as survival of the luckiest. i think 'survival of the luckiest' leads to offspring which are better suited for survival because of the nuances embedded into their DNA by their parents, but, I agree, this IN NO WAY should lead someone to the conclusion that species somehow morph into new species.

    All these intracacies in the DNA are present in all the species, and "survival of the luckiest" leads to prevalence of genetic characteristics which make something better suited for survival while masking the characteristics which are detrimental to survival, at a given place and a given time.

    I feel like these changes can be reconciled with a belief in God because a) I don't feel that God is bound to the restrictions of time that we are. We happen in a blink of God's eye, so to speak. and b) i believe it is in the nature of creation to change. Change is evident in all things, and if change didn't occur, their would be no reason for a final judgment, because we would all be reconciled in God now. The reason for change, I believe, is to come to a point in our own relationship to God and the rest of creation where all of creation can exist in a complete relationship to God.
     
  9. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    Another question i would have then is this: Then at what point did we cease just being animals, and become humans, where we are made (according to the Bible) in God's image? Are we then going to have half man half apes in Heaven? If we all just evolved, then wouldn't animals have to accept Christ too? After all, they are all just evolved differently.
    And, if evolution was true, why wouldn't God have had that put in the Bible instead? Why does it say we and everything was created by God? It sure doesn't make things more easy then saying we "evolved". It STILL takes just as much blind faith to believe. I just believe God wouldn't waste time with "millions of years" when he obviously has to power to create instantly. It sure doesn't make any sense. Even though time means nothing to Him, if it was evoulution, I believe He would have been honest to us and SAID it was that way. Yet it took a human (a Christian who fell away from his faith and wanting to take God out of the equation) Charles Darwin, to write up this crazy theory. And what did he use as his proof? A bunch of different finches on an island. They had diffent beaks and so on, and he said that was "proof". (Even though all of them were still JUST 100% BIRDS!)
     
  10. Lynch

    Lynch Cheesehead

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    If Charles Darwin is crazy, then I could say that they who wrote the bible were a bunch of crazy people along with those who belived in it

    [align=left]You are stubbern and you seem very attached to your belief. But you can´t listen or in this case read. You have not understod that Atheism isn´t a religion it is the oppoiste. Evolution isnt belief or religion.
    Darwin found some thing in nature that didn´t make sence with bible, but he wasnt the first and only one. those who questioned the existens of god, the possibility that he would create the world, they were tortured and then executed.

    The romans killed the chirstaisn for just ebing christians. But when christianity became a big religion did they kill those for not beliving the same things as they did, jsut ebcause they thought they had the right to do that and because it´s said so in the bible.

    More and mre people "convert" from Chirstantiy to atheism every year, even tough no one is going around and force people to become one. Like the chiristians did to expand their religion.
    If now god or the bible be right, why aren´t everyone christians?
    The only reason that christianity is so big is because christians fanatics have forced other to belive in it or they would die.

    The only reason my country became christian protestants is because that a king named Gustav Vasa wnated to have absolute power over his country and not being controlled by the pope. the reason that we were chatolics in the first place were because one king far far brack belvied in it and thretened his people that if they didn´t belive in the same as he did they would be executed. [/align]
     
  11. bozz_2006

    bozz_2006 Cheesehead

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    i think this thread has run its course. I doubt anyone will change their belief system here. It was great, because we got many different viewpoints, but i can sense that if it goes on it's gonna start becoming personal. We don't need that.
     
  12. PackFanInSC

    PackFanInSC Cheesehead

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    I agree -- I feel that what needs to be said has been and to go further would be useless arguing for the sake of winning the debate. God does not want us to come to Him just because we lost an argument, but because of the leading of the Holy Spirit.

    Lynch, thank you for opening up this discussion. I hope and pray that you, at another time in your life, will remember what was said here and will open yourself up to what God has to offer. His Word does not just go away. This conversation and the demeanor in which it was handled will resonate with you at some point. It is my prayer that, at the point in which you are ready, you will experience the true joy and freedom that following God gives you. Until then, brother, you are in our prayers.

    Cheesey, Trippster, Bozz and all the others involved in this discussion -- you all demonstrated more in your care and attitude toward Lynch than merely what your words said. Through your love for him, you have shown Christ to the world. Well Done!! Now, it is time for us to step back. The job of a witness is only to tell what they have seen or heard --- the job of convicting of the Truth is not ours, but belongs to the Holy Spirit. Let us now let Him use the words he prompted us to write to do the work that He needs to do.
     
  13. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    I agree. Lynch, you may think I'm "stubborn" or "crazy", and thats fine with me. I only have your best interests in mind.
    I know thats all i care about, is where you spend eternity. I don't care if you think i'm a nut or not. (Hey, plenty of people think i'm crazy........not just for my religious beliefs!)LOL! :rotflmao:
     
  14. Lynch

    Lynch Cheesehead

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    Du är ju helt otrolig

    It´s better to stop this conversation so you don´t get hurt
     
  15. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    I don't speak Swede, so i don't know what you wrote. But trust me, what you write won't hurt me. I have been insulted by the best!
    I have not insulted you at any time in this thread, i have remained civil. I guess that you being so young you think you know everything. I was young once, and thought i was sooooo smart. Now of course i have the ability to look back and see that the older people i thought were so stupid at the time actually knew alot more then i did.
    I only hope the best for you. Thats all.
     
  16. arrowgargantuan

    arrowgargantuan Cheesehead

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    i don't know, i've changed my religion 3 times during the course of this thread. Buddhism was pretty sweet, but i dug Catholicism quite a bit because i can slap my wife and all is forgiven after confession. i tried the Wicca thing for a minute, but all the women at the gathering looked like Marylyn Manson, except fat. being Agnostic was the best for my busy schedule, but then i have no beliefs to judge others with...no fun in that!
     
  17. Lynch

    Lynch Cheesehead

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    [align=left]I haven´t said that I am soooooooo smart and if u thought that u were that when u were young, whenever that was, thats up to u.
    You don´t know me so how would you know whats best for me?
    Anyway I don´t care what you think about me and if you belive that I´m going to hell which u have mentioned before(which also perhaps could be counted as an insult) then that´s up to u.
    You can belive whatever you want but denying the obvious truth and wishing everything was medevil is jsut plain stupid even for a religious person[/align]

    [align=left]This thread has been more intresting on the Browns forum then here, somehow the people there are more resonible[/align]
     
  18. Pack93z

    Pack93z You retired too? .... Not me. I'm in my prime

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    Lynch, I don't think Cheesey or for that matter anyone was trying to offend others and you within this thread. Much care was used to try to avoid that. I reread the entire thread and I don't see any insults until your last comment in Swede (thanks for editing it as it was was uncalled for and over the line).

    Here is the problem with religion and the views of it around the globe. There is so much deep seated anger in the history of religion to carry on a discussion without it eventually insulting someone with the others really not trying to.

    Lynch, you have the right to believe what your mind and body wish to. Nobody meant to do anything other than to discuss and share THEIR views and beliefs; and maybe someplace in time it may become useful to you or others. I know I learned a little more about others faith, but am free to believe what I feel inside.

    ditt liv, du väljer ditt tro. (I am probably rusty... but in english... "your life, you choose your belief")

    FRED or in English "Peace"
     
  19. vegOmatic

    vegOmatic Cheesehead

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    Random thoughts:

    1. If there is no god then we are nothing but complicated and meaningless chemical reactions
    2. If Evolution is possible, then it's possible for an entity to evolve into God
    3. If God wanted to create intelligent life he wouldn't have created people
    4. God may be a rookie and the dinosaurs were a failed attempt to create life
    5. It could be this is the beginning of Time and we are the most advanced creatures in the universe, so far
    6. At the end of the semester the Earth may be rinsed out of the petri dish and down the drain
     
  20. Pack93z

    Pack93z You retired too? .... Not me. I'm in my prime

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    Now those are some deep and debateable thoughts... heck of a post.
     
  21. bozz_2006

    bozz_2006 Cheesehead

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    Well, God flushed the world down the toiletonce and promised not to do it again, but I wouldn't blame him
     
  22. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    Thats ok Lynch. I'll still pray for you.
    As far as knowing "whats best for you", you yourself have admitted to being a thief in another thread. Now i KNOW that that is not good for you, and there's a good chance that someday you may get caught and end up in jail. If you want to deny that, you can of course do so. You can also look up at a blue sky and deny that it's blue. That won't change the fact that it IS blue, but you are free to believe what you want.
    If I'm wrong about there being a God, and that we will answer some day for the bad things we do, then i will die and not know i was wrong. On the other hand, if i am right, you will have a LONG time to think about how wrong you were. Which by the way, i don't wish on you at all.
    I could of course say "What the heck do I care if some kid in Sweden spends eternity in Hell?" But truth is, I DO care. Now......if you are so SURE i am wrong, WHY did you get so heated about it and insult me? If i am wrong, you should be able to just laugh at the nut you think i am. You should'nt care how much i care about you.
    Your being an athiest doesn't shake my faith in God one bit. And you can insult me and Him as much as you want and it STILL won't make me deny His existence.
    Truth is, YOU started the thread about your beliefs (or lack there of) so you should not be surprised that others might actually care about you and what you believe.
    So the people on the Browns forum are more "reasonable?" I guess that must mean they agree with you? Or they don't really care where you spend eternity.
    In the end, you have been told the truth, and only you will answer for yourself. Like i said, if I'm wrong, so be it. We all will die someday, and then we will know who was right. There is no way for me to prove you wrong right now, or for you to prove me wrong.
     
  23. PackFanInSC

    PackFanInSC Cheesehead

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    Yes, we have tried not to offend and hit anyone over the head with the Gospel but, the message of Christ in itself is offensive to those who do not believe -- as it opens up their deepest secrets, feelings and acts to scrutiny.

    1 Peter 2:7-8 speaks about Jesus in this way:


    Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

    And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.


    Sin, at its root, is to love one's self more than you love God. So, in order to serve God, we need to deny ourselves and our wants in favor of what He wants. That is why the Gospel becomes so offensive. As we are made to realize how far short of God's standards we fall, we try to rationalize our actions -- usually by comparing them to others that we consider worse than us. We get offended because someone would dare think that we are not good enough to go to Heaven. But the truth is, nobody is "good enough" to achieve God's holiness. It is only by His grace that we are able to approach Him.

    In the book of Esther, Esther was afraid to approach the king because, if she were to go to him uninvited and he not welcome her by extending his scepter, she would be put to death. In her case, she was welcomed into his presence. In a similar fashion, God is now extending His scepter to us -- welcoming those who will come to Him into His presence. All you have to do is accept His invitation.
     
  24. jdlax

    jdlax Cheesehead

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    So...how do you all feel about, oh I don't know...George W. Bush?
     
  25. vegOmatic

    vegOmatic Cheesehead

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    I think he'd be a great preseident compared to you. :p
     
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