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Atheism

Discussion in 'The Atrium' started by Lynch, Jul 1, 2007.

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  1. bozz_2006

    bozz_2006 Cheesehead

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    well pack93Z, my answer to that is going to come from Luther (surprise surprise!). Luther was big on the kingdom of God. He faced many of the same question that we are facing now. His concern was for God, and he saw that those who were supposed to be bringing people closer to God were in many ways pulling them further away.

    Luther believed that God was sovereign over everything, and that the Kingdom of God is not necessarily a separation of heaven and hell, or heaven and earth, but that the Kingdom was present in this age and the next. The Kingdom on the right refers to God's rule for the sake of our salvation, because God loves us. God uses gospel, forgiving the sins of all who truly believe, in spite of how wicked each of us is. God creates faith in us through love for us, that we would be called and sent to proclaim the good news. This is God's proper work, bringing creation to its fulfillment.

    The kingdom on the left applies directly to this world, and God governs through the institutions, orders, and communities of creation. God governs here through the law (be it the 10 Commandments ((though they weren't actually commandments)), the Great Commandment, or natural law) This type of governance is made necessary only because sin is part of this world. Since sin is part of this world, it is necessary to understand that the left kingdom can and will be abused. It is by grace that we proclaim the Word to limit these abuses.

    War has a lot to do with the Jewish idea of Shalom. It is most often translated as "peace", but is actually closer to the idea of homeostasis, where all is right with the world. We must constantly strive for a greater sense of shalom, and sometimes that means taking it to extreme measures. If it weren't for sin, there would be no war and the world and we would be in a constant state of shalom. Killing is not good, but we must not forget that the Bible is not free from killing and God has done a fair bit of killing Him(or her)self. A major part of Jesus' message was to judge others less and judge oneself more. This is also part of God's salvific work. Killing isn't always wrong, and sometimes it is right. I hope I am never in a situation where I have to decide that for myself, or be in the position to judge anyone who has killed before. Thank God that isn't my job. I will still keep doing my best to follow those left-hand rules as fairly as I can, and always work to proclaim God's good Word. I believe that we are saved by grace, and our works will not save us. I believe that one who is righteous will do good works, but good works will not make you righteous. A believer will be guided by the Holy Spirit in all he or she does. If you are a believer and can in good conscience kill a person, then you need not worry about the left kingdom but only the right, because if you are guided by God then to God alone must you be accountable. To me, it's not a question about killing as a soldier or as a civilian, it's about whether the true believer can justify it to themselves that it really is God's will.
     
  2. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    Pack93z...........I have always seen "Thou shalt not kill" as meaning thou shalt not murder. I beleive war is a seperate situation. If you are fighting to protect your freedom, or the freedoms of others, i think it is a noble thing. Look at how many people were tortured and killed by people like Hitler and Hussein. If no one takes a stand against people like that, they have no compassion for others.
    Jesus talked to soldiers who had questioned Him in Luke 3:14. Jesus did not tell them to not be soldiers anymore, he told them to be content with their wages. In fact in 2nd Timothy 2:3, He tells us to be "good soldiers of Christ Jesus." I guess what I'm saying is, God KNOWS the difference between war, or being forced to kill someone to protect yourself or your loved ones.
    Plus, I do believe that a murderer can gain salvation. There are some in the Bible that repented of their ways and turned from their sin. If someone kills someone today, gets sent to jail, and honestly repents and accepts Jesus, I believe they can gain Heaven. That doesn't mean they won't have to answer to man for their crimes down here though. They still get their punishment down here. But GOD knows whats in their hearts. You can't "pull the wool" over God's eyes. You can't reason "I'll do what I want, then accept Christ and not have to pay for it." If you try that, God won't be fooled or mocked.
    This is the way I see it. Maybe I'm totally wrong, but this is what I believe God meant.
     
  3. bozz_2006

    bozz_2006 Cheesehead

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    agreed cheese. and let us not forget that in Luke's gospel, Jesus called the entire crowd a brood of vipers, not just the soldiers and tax collectors. we all have a purpose, and whatever job you have, you have it for a reason. some people were meant to be soldiers, some weren't.
     
  4. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    Thats right Bozz!
    Everyone should do what they do best.................and if I can ever figure out what that is for me, I'll start doing it!!! :thumbsup: :rotflmao:
     
  5. Pack93z

    Pack93z You retired too? .... Not me. I'm in my prime

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    In no way am I condemming the practice of war or denouncing any given troop whether they are ours or another countries. But this is a basic question that I have always struggled with in my mind.

    "Thou Shalt not Kill" is pretty black in white in my book, so you are instructed by another man to wage war against another and somehow the skirts the basic root of the word of the Lord. Does that free us to strike justice against those that have harmed us or another?

    This is the crutch of the Bible it is written by man and may be interpreted in different ways by each man.

    May be interpreted differently on how you define a soldier in the statement. In no pretense do I believe that it is meant to kill in the name of Jesus Christ, or does it?

    from WikiPedia...

    Various translations exist of the sixth commandment; the Hebrew words ?? ???? are variously translated as "thou shalt not kill" or "thou shalt not murder". Older Protestant translations of the Bible, those based on the Vulgate and Roman Catholic translations usually render it "Thou shalt not kill", whereas Jewish and newer Protestant versions tend to use "You shall not murder". There is controversy as to which translation is more faithful, and both forms are quoted in support of ethical standpoints.
     
  6. bozz_2006

    bozz_2006 Cheesehead

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    that's right pack93z. none of the "commandments" are actually imperatives. in fact, there is no such thing as a negative imperative in Hebrew. they are imperfect verbs, and are translated as "you will not" do this, and "you will do this". They are imperfect verbs with an instructive nuance. One thing is sure, they are NOT commandments. That's just one of the MANY errors Jerome made in the Vulgate.
     
  7. OnionKnight

    OnionKnight Cheesehead

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    Dont tell that to the cowboys.... they have their stadium.... which supposedly "god looks down on them" thats why its open... well , among other fans in the league who hate the Cowboys, its called "God's Toilet"
     
  8. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    LOL! And god was probably saying........."Geez, put a ROOF on it.....you think i want to be looking at that garbage all day?"
     
  9. PackFanInSC

    PackFanInSC Cheesehead

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    After my last post, I felt a very strong impression that God wanted me to stay away from posting in his thread for a time -- one week. That perhaps we were confusing things by throwing so many things out there at once and we needed to whomever was reading it to sift through the clutter and allow God to reveal His Truth out of it. That God wanted me to "Be Still and Know That I Am God".

    Apparently, He had the same message for others as the thread almost totally stopped at the same time. Now, I am wondering if anyone would like to share what, if anything, they have come to realize or that God has shown them, as they thought over our discussion from last week.
     
  10. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    How true Packfan...........being open to the Holy Spirit also means to know when he says to keep quiet.
    We are to do as he leads, and to leave the results with Him.
    My only desire was to try, as hard as it is with just words on a computer screen, to tell whoever reads this thread what He has done to me personally. That makes me want all on here to expiereince the same thing. My life is far from perfect, and I have more then my share of hard times that make me question WHY i go through alot of what i have to go through. But i also have been able to reach others because of my own trials. It makes it possible for me to KNOW what it's actually like, so i can feel real empathy for others.
    I get angry at God when i have my bad days (which is quite often) but it has never caused me to not KNOW that He has reasons for everything that happens. Even if i don't understand why alot of the time.
    I get tired of being sick all the time..........and my hope is that someday He will show me why i have to go through what i go through.
     
  11. Lynch

    Lynch Cheesehead

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    [align=left]I haven´t visit this thread for a while, I´ve been busy.But it´s fun to see people is still writing.
    I haven´t read what the replies were on what I last wrote.

    But in anyway I don´t know if you religious guys thing that I´m evil or what just becuase I don´t belive in god, jesus or what else and u maybe find me hostile to you religion. In some way yes but it´s becuase I was in a christian kindergarden when I was young and I became of course a beliver. I didn´t drop the whole god thing until I was 13 or 14 I think, which were after a severe headache. I also drop my racisitc thought during that same time, there is no real connection exept I thought Chrisitanity should cruch Islam. But after I droped all thous ideas, I became a more enlighted peson.
    I got mad of being brainwashed in my early years and I think its wrong to do so, children should get the chance to make their own minds instead of grown ups doing it for them

    I don´t think people are less worth becasue the belive in god(which religious peple think of me of not beliving in god), but teaching it school as the right thing to belive in is just wrong. I´ve heared that it is so in america and I´m quite upset about that.[/align]
     
  12. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    I don't feel you are evil because you don't believe, just misguided.
    As far as religion, they don't teach it in the schools here, unless you go to a religion based school. I just wish they would also then stop preaching the religion of evolution in the public schools. Kids should be allowed to make up their own minds on that too, not have evolution shoved down their throats. To me, school should be a place of learning REAL science and math and so on. Not indoctrination into humanistic beliefs.
    You may have had religion forced on you, and now you rebelled. You are young, and some day may come to realize that you over compensated. You went from one extreme to the other. That is my hope for you. That you someday will stand back and realize that you may have just removed God from your life because you were mad that you had it shoved on you.
    We don't always accept that older people arn't always as dumb as we think.
    I thought i knew it all when i was young too. I have since learned that i wasn't as smart as i thought.
    You are never too young or too old to learn, if you keep an open mind.
     
  13. Lynch

    Lynch Cheesehead

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    [align=left]Evolution is NOT a humanistic belief, it´s based on sience such as math, physics and so on that you call real sience. If you say evolution is not sience then you can´t say that that math, physics, chemistry are real sience[/align]
     
  14. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    Sorry Lynch.......you are wrong. Evolution is NOT science.
    2+2=4 dinosaur bones and fossils does NOT equal "millions of years".
    Math, physics, chemistry are all PROVABLE and RECREATEABLE. They are SCIENCE. Evolution is just a "theory", which equals a made up story based on nothing but imagination.
    If you have a highway from one end of you country to the other end, and you are standing 10 miles from the end of the highway. You see a car driving 60mph drive past you. So you can calculate how long it should take that car, driving at it's current speed, to arrive at the end of the highway. Now, you can GUESS that the car has been driving for MANY hours, cause you actually KNOW how long the highway is. Lets say the highway is 600 miles long (just for easy math). You can say the car was driving for 10 hours, right? Pretty good guess based on what you KNOW to be true.
    But wait........how do you know WHERE the car ENTERED the highway? Maybe he got on only a couple miles from where you are standing. Maybe he was only on the highway a couple of minutes when you saw him. Evolution is that way. They GUESS that these things HAD to happen "millions of years ago" when it VERY possibly could have been just a few thousand years ago. Like i said, there are cave drawings and other depictions of dinosaurs LONG before our recorded history. And the ONLY way these people would have known what they are was if they had actually SEEN them, as they didn't have the ability to dig down to where the dino bones are.
    Have you even bothered to look at the sites i listed in this thread that SHOW you proof i am talking about? If you don't bother to look, then you don't really want to know the truth.
    Evolution is NOT science.It is SCIENCE FICTION. It is NOT any more provable today then when it was invented 150 years ago. Even with our REAL science we have today, they can not prove it. no matter how hard they try.
     
  15. bozz_2006

    bozz_2006 Cheesehead

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    the hallmark of science is not that a thing can be proven, but rather that it can be disproven. I'm not trying to argue with either of you. i agree with cheesey that evolution is just a theory and being such, it cannot be proven anymore than the existence of God can be proven. we use inductive reasoning to theorize about evolution, taking what we do know and extrapolating upon what we don't know, just as cheesey has said. I personally see changes that have occurred over time and for one believe that God is the Divine Cause for these changes, and recognize that much of the Biblical literature people use to "disprove" evolution was written to convey a certain message, and certainly not written to convey a historical accuracy.
     
  16. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    Animals have had "adaptations" to environmental change and so on, but that still doesn't change a fish into a bird. Deer in Wisconsin grow a heavy winter coat to servive, where as deer in Texas don't get the heavy coat, because they don't need it. Both are still 100% deer, and haven't grown wings to fly to a better climate. God instilled these abilities in His creation so they would servive different situations. I think that was pretty smart of Him!
    To believe evolution, you have to believe "millions of years ago" a dot (where did this "dot" come from?) spinning in space (where did SPACE come from?) spun faster and faster, and then blew up! (WHY did it blow up?) And this ONE little spinning dot made ALL the planets, stars, comets, moons, not to mention all the other galaxies we are able to see now with our more powerful telescopes. Then the earth was a dead bubling boiling soup, that just made all the right stuff come together to magically make the first single cell come alive. This single cell split over and over and over, and some decided "Hey, i think i'll be a fish!" Others said "I'll be a tree!" Others said, i'll be a monkey!" and so on. Then the monkeys (some of them at least) decided to walk upright and develope much more complex brains, and POOF! We have MAN! Now, there is NO proof that ANY of this ever happened. In fact, there are planets in our own solar system that disprove the "big bang theory" because they revolve backwards. And SCIENCE proves that if a spinning thing explodes, everything would be spinning in the same direction.
    Evolution is no more science then Harry Potter. Now, you can BELIEVE Harry Potter is real, but thats not science, it's your free will choice to believe.
    So, you might think i'm crazy to believe that a intellegent being created everything, but i think it's just as crazy to believe that everything just happened by chance. Science can't prove or disprove God being real or not real. If you believe in evolution, then you are saying that humans have no more rights then plants or animals. We just "evolved" differently.

    You have the right to believe in evolution, as I do God as my creator. But neither is scientifically provable. Both are based 100% on blind faith.
     
  17. PackFanInSC

    PackFanInSC Cheesehead

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    Lynch,
    We do not think that you are worth less than us because of your beliefs. We just pray that you would realize the difference that knowing God in your life can make. As far as your being evil, we all are. Man, as a species, is inherently evil due to the sin that is apart of our inbred nature. For example, if you ask any child who has done something wrong if they did it, their very first response will almost always be to lie -- as our nature is to think of ourselves first. That is what sin really is -- putting ourselves and our "wants" before the will of God and others.

    I can relate to questioning God. I grew up in a strong Christian family and accepted Christ when I was 5. When I was 14, however, my parents were killed by a drunk driver. Suddenly, the support that I had at home was gone and I was pretty much on my own -- as far as my relationship with God went. I began basing all my decisions on "What would my father do?" -- my earthly father, not my Heavenly one. Due to the example that Dad had left for me, outwardly, it would seem to everyone else that I was leading a good, Christian life but I knew differently. There was an emptiness and hurting that was affecting me in how I related to God and to people. I became withdrawn and a bit of a loner -- allowing very few people to get close to me -- for fear that, if I allowed them to get close to me, something would happen to them and I would get hurt again.

    But, even though I was not looking for God, He had not forgotten me. My sister and Sister-in-law had seen the differences in me and were praying for me. Finally, when I was 28, I was moving into a new apartment and my sister gave me 2 house-warming gifts -- a NIV Study Bible and a copy of "In His Steps" by Charles Sheldon. I "knew" what the Bible was going to say so I started reading the book instead. As I read that book -- in which a church congregation changes the world around them by basing every decision on answering the question "What Would Jesus Do?", I realized just how far off track I had gotten. As I thought of all the opportunities that God had given me and, in my anger toward Him, I had shut Him out, the thought that He was still reaching out to me was overwhelming. Only a God that loved us (me) enough to give His own Son, Jesus, to die to pay the price for our (my) sins would be patient enough to wait for me through all those years.

    Lynch, you say that you became a much more "enlightened" person after making a decision that there was no God. Just because you feel you were "brainwashed" by those who taught you about Jesus (Didn't you say it was a "Christian" Kindergarten?-- teaching about Christ should be expected there.), that does not make the existence of God any less true. You are rebelling against what you feel people have done to you -- not what God has done. That is normal for a person of your age -- as all of us go through a period of challenging the things that we have been taught as we try to find ourselves.

    Please do not confuse your new "enlightenment" with freedom. Only true freedom comes from a relationship with God -- not a church body, denomination, a particular pastor's teachings -- those are all of man. Only God can give us true freedom. The things of this world may seem easy and free -- the temptations of sin always seem so good and welcoming (otherwise, they would not be tempting, would they?), but there is ALWAYS a consequence. Each time, it becomes easier to rationalize our behavior and the line moves just a little further until we find that we have moved far past where we ever though we would.

    But, the beauty of it is that God is right there when we are ready to turn back. I just pray that you do not wait as long as I did before you realize that He is reaching out to you.


    To answer some of the questions that you may have -- from kids around your own age -- please go to this link. NotReligion.com
     
  18. bozz_2006

    bozz_2006 Cheesehead

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    adaptations to environmental changes = evolution. the stuff you're talking about with everything coming from particles in the atmosphere is not evolution. that's big bang theory. totally different. species adapting to environmental change is exactly what Darwin was studying. he never ever said anything about humans coming from monkeys or whatever. and since evolution is animals evolving to environmental change, i don't see why that is unreconcilable to God the Creator.
     
  19. bozz_2006

    bozz_2006 Cheesehead

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    great post PackfanInSC. again, I'll bring Luther into the mix. We as humans have the idea of free will, but often it can get confusing to us just what that free will means. Many of us think that it is the freedom to say yes to God, or to say no to God. But Luther sums it up in the small catechism on the third article of the creed:

    "I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Christian Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.

    What does this mean?

    I believe that I cannot by my own thinking or choosing believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to him.
    But the Holy Spirit has called me by the gospel, enlightened me with his gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith. In the same way he calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian Church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith.
    In this Christian Church he daily and fully forgives all sins to me and all believers.
    On the Last Day he will raise me and all the dead, and give eternal life to me and all believers in Christ. This is most certainly true.
    "

    So, our free will allows us to say no to God, but does not allow us to say yes to God, because we can't get to God by anything we do. It is through God's grace alone that he (or she) comes to us. God's grace alone is what saves us, not our choice to allow ourselves to be saved. By accepting God, you are not saying 'yes i will allow God into my life'. What you are doing is ceasing to say no. That old line, "let go, and let God" really takes on a new meaning when we think about it this way.

    Now, I know all our theologies are different and many people have a problem with Luther, but the fact is that the Spirit chooses and ordains us to go out and sanctify the world. We cannot choose to do this on our own. We can only choose not to say no when we are called.
     
  20. PackFanInSC

    PackFanInSC Cheesehead

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    Bozz,

    If I understand you correctly, and I believe that I do, we agree. One cannot, of his own actions, choose to accept God without the Holy Spirit first convicting him (or showing him of his separation from, or need for, God). That is why it must be more than merely a decision of the head, but one of the heart. We can approach the debate from a logical argument of the scientific and historical positions but, without the Holy Spirit revealing the Truth, we are not accomplishing anything but scoring points in a debate.

    This is, however, the one debate that we have had on this site that overwhelms all others in importance. Brett retiring, Randy Moss, Larry Johnson, Ted Thompson and McCarthy vs Sherman mean absolutely nothing in comparison to what is being discussed right here. I have no doubt that the Holy Spirit has convicted someone who read the words in this thread and, whether they have said "YES" to God or have chosen to say "no", they have read the message that He has intended for them to read. I also believe that the Holy Spirit prompted Lynch to post his simple question "Are there any atheists on this forum?" I suspect that God is dealing with him in way he may not even realize now but, whether the responses are indeed for him or someone else at this time (or in the years down the road), I do believe that God's Word has been represented in some of the best ways possible here and in a manner that reflects His Will.
     
  21. bozz_2006

    bozz_2006 Cheesehead

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    that's right Packfan, i'm not trying to ruffle too many feathers here, but an "atheist" who asks about God is, in my opinion, not actually an atheist. I suspect, Lynch, that you have many thoughts running through your head about religion, and you have shared some stories which have led you to an atheist perspective. I think our aim here is to show that most Christians are very accepting people, and though we try, no person can convey the immensity of God. As far as I am concerned, you shouldn't let anyone dictate your relationship with God except God him(or her)self. The Holy Spirit talks to us all. Don't be afraid to listen.
     
  22. Lynch

    Lynch Cheesehead

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    [align=left]Evolutin is acctully not a theory, it´s called it but it isn´t. THere is more then dinosaurs to prove that. If you study the human body you notice that it changed. I don´t think a god would create a cecum if it doesn´t work. It´s shows that it´s left over from our ancestors back in time when it was needed. The bluewhale have hip bones from the time that it was a land living creature. This is just small signs which I write 22:37 while I´m waching TV so u understand that theere is lot more proof than that.
    Evolution is not fiction as the bible. It´s siecne cuz it has been proven. The creation thoery can´t

    If you really want a list of all the evidence of evolution I can give it to u, but then give me equaly ammount of proof that the creation theory have happened and tat the earth is 6000 years[/align]
     
  23. bozz_2006

    bozz_2006 Cheesehead

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    i agree with you about evolution, Lynch. I just think God made it happen. I don't believe it is random
     
  24. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    It's been proven that there have never been any "left over" parts in humans. They used to think the appendix was a proof of evolution and not needed. Then they discovered it was actually part of the immune system. People without one are more likely to get sick then someone that still have one. Just because we don't understand the perpose of an organ in us doesn't mean it isn't there for a reason. You can live without your legs, or eyes, or arms, but does that mean you don't need them or there is no reason we have them?
    As far as the bluewhale having left over "hip bones", this is just another lie you have been fed by evolution. Those small bones you talk about are actually anchor points for small muscles for the whales reproductive organs. Without them whales could not reproduce. Anyone that knows about whale anatomy will tell you that. Those little bones have NOTHING to do with walking. But evolutionists know they can feed those kinds of lies to people, and most will just believe them, because after all, they are scientists and wouldn't lie, right?
    Heres a little extra to consider..........what did animals do when they were in the between stages? Like if they had lungs and then went into the water. If you were in between, you couldn't breathe either in or out of the water. And if evolution is supposed to make higher life forms, wouldn't it be more beneficial to be able to breathe both in AND out of water?
     
  25. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    It's a HUGE jump from adaptation and evolution. An animal adapting to environmental changes does not change the DNA of the animal. It doesn't make a land animal grow gills. It can ONLY "adapt" as far as what is already written into it's DNA. And Darwin DID tell of us as humans evolving from apes. He lists black people as nearer to pure ape. Adolph Hitler was a big fan of Darwin and based his murdering of people on Darwin's teaching. He didn't see jews, and blacks as being really human based on the "fact" that they had not evolved as far yet.
    I have seen displays in the Milwaukee Museum for evolution. There is one on the horse, where they show these different from smaller to larger animals, with different feet. They are supposed to lead up to the modern horse. Yet in reality, the fossils have been found of horses and these smaller animals together in the same place, AND at levels different then the evolutionists say they "evolved". Of course, this is not pointed out in the display. They also show a rooster with super long feathers as proof of evolution. But all it is is a chicken with longer feathers. It didn't grow hands or gills, it's still 100% chicken. Nothing was added to it, just a chicken.
    They also show as "proof" of evolution where there was a place where there was a huge population of white moths. The trees there were white birch trees, so the white moths thrived. Then a factory moved in and blew black soot all over the trees. Suddenly the white moths dissappeared, and lo and behold there were now BLACK moths all over the place! PROOF of evolution! (This display is still up at the museum as far as I know) Now.....consider this. Both black and white moths were being born there ALL ALONG. But ask yourself, if a black moth and a white moth land on a white tree, which one do you think the birds are going to see and eat? Once again, common sense gets pushed aside in the name of almighty evolution. Once the trees turned black from the soot, now the white moths stood out and were eaten first.
    This is proof that God made sure that species would servive by putting the information into the moths to produce different colors. The moths did NOT change in anyway but their color, which was in their DNA already. NOTHING was added or taken away. It's the same with humans. We have many different colors of skin. But does that make one human more "evolved" then another? Darwin thought so.
    My feeling is that God is as he says, all powerful and can do anything. He has no reason to waste millions of years waiting for things to evolve when he can just make it right the first time. We are made in His image, and I believe Him. Thats my choice of course, and you can choose to believe differently.
     
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