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Atheism

Discussion in 'The Atrium' started by Lynch, Jul 1, 2007.

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  1. porky88

    porky88 Cheesehead

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    The Scientific Evolution theory is pretty much commonly accepted now. Perhaps they are not entirely accurate in the years and how long life has been here but it’s not to the point where they are off 10’s of million years off. Rocks have been here far longer than us. The Earth is millions of years old. I do not believe god snapped a finger and saw light is good. Does that mean the Bible is entirely wrong an nothing is truthful inside it?

    Not at all but the bible we have now a day was not written by the lord himself. It’s a bunch of tales put together hundreds of years ago to provide answers. At the time they were just searching for answers. The Church had no idea how advance of a civilization we would become. Eventually the Earth was not flat. Eventually the Earn revolved around the Sun. The flaws in the bible are all over the place and I would not interpret the bible as 100% fact.

    In fact religion is many ways is still searching for answers. Just like the rest of us humans and scientists out there.

    The Bible is an excellent book that can help you put your life on track or it’s a good setting to help you live a good and moral life. To me that’s what the Bible is. Not a History book.
     
  2. PackFanInSC

    PackFanInSC Cheesehead

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    Just because something is commonly accepted does not make it true. In the 1400s, people believed that you could just fall off the end of the Earth. Man may have change slightly physically over time as he adapted to his environment but he did not evolve from another species.

    But, that doesn't really matter anyway. Whether the first 2 or 3 days of creation took one day, one year, or hundreds of years does not change the fact that there was an intelligence behind the design of the universe. God put us here -- right here -- for a reason. We could not have just happened by chance.

    You are entitled to believe however you like. That is why God allowed us to have a free will. What I do not understand some portions of the Bible can be seen as fact yet the others (that we do not agree with) were just a bunch of tales put together to explain things.


    BTW long before man understood the Earth was round and was suspended in space, the Bible mentioned it. Science vs the Bible
     
  3. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    Good points again Packfaninsc.
    The Bible stated that the Earth was round LONG before so called "scientists" found out that it was in fact round. Plus dinosaurs are mentioned in the Bible. It tells of "behemoth".
    Plus look at all the tales of "dragons" (dinosaurs) in human history. What do you think these "dragons" were? They were DINOSAURS! I even believe in the fire breathing ones. Man and dinosaurs were here at the same time! And that messes up "evolution" completly. They have found dinosaur skulls with large seperate cavities in their skulls. It's VERY possible that that was where their bodies stored the chemicals that would be combined to cause flame and burning. There is a beetle today that stores chemicals, and combines them to burn it's attacker. Why couldn't this be possible on a larger scale?
    There is a HUGE swamp in Africa (it's about the size of Illinois I believe) and there are reports of dinosaurs still living in that swamp. The local people there see them every so often. But the swamp is so horrible (mosquitos surround you by the thousands constanty) plus the poisonous snakes and so on, make it nearly impossible to explore.
    The Loch Ness monster, and "Champ" in lake Champlain, and other creatures have been spotted by VERY reliable eye witnesses. I believe it IS possible they could be dinosaurs still alive. Of course that won't be provable till one is found dead or alive. Although on the site I posted earlier, they have some photos of a dinosaur that washed up on a beach i think back in the 1920's. It looks alot like a plesiasaur (not sure if i spelled it right).
    Like i have stated before, there is NO proof of evolution. It is a made up theory by man to try to explain how everything came about. But think how much more blind faith it takes to believe that EVERYTHING, humans, all animals, all fish, all plants, EVERYTHING came from a ROCK in some bubbling soup. Now THAT takes blind faith!
    I wear a wristwatch. It shows me what time it is, and what day it is. Have i ever SEEN the maker of my watch? Nope. So should I just figure that because I never saw him that my watch just appeared from a bunch of plastic, cloth, and metal that "grew" by itself into a watch?
    Doesn't make much sense, does it. It took intellegence to make my 7 dollar watch. But I'm to believe that everything just came together to make billions of different plants, animals, bugs, humans, all from just ONE thing? Just add "millions of years" (like all fairy tales, "once upon a time") and anything is possible?
    I think I'll just believe God. I don't have the guts to call Him a liar.
     
  4. porky88

    porky88 Cheesehead

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    First like I said before I believe in God and I'm not calling him a liar at all. I believe that he allowed for evolution to take place. I just don’t believe Eve was came from Adam’s rib.

    If you truly believe God said let their be light and saw it was good then that is your opinion. Perhaps that is how it went down. I really don‘t know of anyone or anything that can answer that. If you believe the world is 6000 to 8000 years old then that is your opinion. A lot of the texts in the bible were chosen by the very same people who believed the earth was flat. In the 1400's they didn't have the knowledge we have now. They weren't able to travel into space or to the moon. They weren't able to take the pictures we can. To compare then to now is ridiculous. We’re so far ahead of them in technology that it was probably unimaginable back then. In fact I believe it was.

    The oldest rock found on the earth dates back to 3.8 to 3.9 billions years ago. While you can’t calculate how old the earth or universe (since space is really nothing) really is, you can conclude that the earth is at least as old as the rocks if not more.

    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-age-of-earth.html

    So many things in the Bible were left out of it for reasons that we shall never know. Texts are still out there that have not been discovered. To me the bible isn’t even completed. The sad part is if religion and science stopped arguing and tried to work together we could come closer to discovering the truth than anyone may ever know.
     
  5. Green_Bay_Packers

    Green_Bay_Packers Cheesehead

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    Dont flame me this is my opinion

    Even though i attended a Catholic School i don't believe in God but i think we were put on this Earth for some reason but i don't know what.
     
  6. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    I wouldn't "flame" you! I think organized religion can sour people and turn them away from God more then make them want to seek Him.
    All I ask is that you keep an open mind that he MAY exist. If you take "religion" out of it and concentrate just on God, he may surprise you! I have had some answers to prayer that SHOCKED me! They were SO straight and to the point, that had it not happened to me, I don't know if i would have believed it myself.
    I was raised in a "religion" that changed their "bible" to fit their teachings, and things i saw almost turned me away from God. But then i realized it wasn't GOD that was doing those things, it was man messing up.....again.
    So i guess you could say i went straight to the source (God) to find out for myself.

    Porky, saying a rock on the Earth is 3.8 or 3.9 billion years old can't be proved, no matter what they try to say. Unless you or someone was actually there to record it's age, there is NO way to know for any certainty that that rock is a billion, or 5000 years old. They can SAY they "know" it, but truth is, they are just plain and simple guessing. And because most (not all, but most) people that believe in evolution don't believe in God, they throw out a number and then stand there and saw "Well then, PROVE it's NOT 3.8 billion years old!" I can't of course prove to you that it's not, but my faith is in God, not in mankind. Thats my personal choice. I guess when i see him some day, i will find out for certain. I just choose to believe, and put my faith in the Bible.

    Back in the early 1980's, i had a friend at church. He was probably 20 years older then me. He went to the doctor, as he wasn't feeling well. They x-rayed his lungs, and he had a very large tumor in the one lung. They went a few days later and took several x-rays at different angles, and all of them showed this large tumor. The doctor planned the operation, and this man (Bill) was terrified. The day before he was to be operated on, we all prayed over him.
    The next day he was being prepped for the operation, and the doc wanted to take one more x-ray to be certain where to go in. Bill told me that he felt a warmth going over his body when we prayed for him, and that he felt normal when he went into the hospital. I'm sure you have already guessed, the tumor had dissappeared! Completely gone! The doc took several more x-rays, and said he never saw anything like that in his life.
    The next week, Bill was in church thanking us. He passed away just a couple years ago, but never forgot the miracle that kept him here to see the birth of his grandchildren.
     
  7. Lynch

    Lynch Cheesehead

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    [align=left]I thank porky for supporting me

    I can´t understand you cheesey to say that dinosaurs lived together with humans, that´s very ridiculous and I don´t know if u belive it urself. But the dinosaurs existed before us that´s fact you can´t deny even how you look at it. Fossils of sea living animals have been founded in mountains with prove that the world were in many years under water. You see all the bigger chains of mountain have all been under water.
    you can acctully stand on a top of a underwater mountain which can be as big or twice as big as mount everest.
    I know i´m 18 and I don´¨t know everyhintg in the world. But one thing is certain that evoltution is not concidred as a theory anymore it´s fact, I dont know how it´s in the US but both in Europe and Asia is it a fact.
    I could have made a unlimited long list of proof that the man is result of the evolution. If I had a scientist epert then he cetranly could explain all this you better[/align]
     
  8. digsthepack

    digsthepack Cheesehead

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    I find it funny that most people fall into the "evolution" or "creation" camps.

    How about the novel idea that evolution can occur within the grand plan?

    Evolution may be taught as fact in many schools, but there are many scientists who will debate otherwise. But then again, the secular left are also the ones who have told us that the debate about the CAUSES of global warming...not the fact that the earth is warming (just as it has every 1500 years or so).....is over, that no more discussion is necessary. I do find it amazing how unwilling many of the enlightened types who praise diversity will not tolerate diversity of thought or opinion, but who instead try to quiet opposition with bully tactics.

    Funny that...the aggressive quieting and slandering of ones critcs...just like the finest fascist states in modern history.
     
  9. PackFanInSC

    PackFanInSC Cheesehead

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    I think that Porky may have only partially been supporting you, Lynch. He believes in evolution as a part of God's plan but the major difference is that he believes that God exists.

    If you would, could you please explain to me how the 2 statements that I quoted from you above do not contradict each other? If the biggest mountain chains were all under water (as the Biblical story of the Flood says they were for over 1 year), how is there no evidence of a worldwide flood?
     
  10. trippster

    trippster Cheesehead

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    Here is my take on evolution. How is it that the being (fish, ape, etc.) knew that it needed to evolve? And how did it have the ability to change yet we no longer do? Take eyesight for example.

    at some point, a micro organism turned into a seeing animal or fish. How did it know it needed eyes? How did it know (without seeing) that eyesight would be possible? How did it know that the air was invisible and therefore if we had eyes we could see?

    The only possible answer is an independent third party. One who could see. One who could figure out that a retina would be beneficial.

    At a church in a Barrington, IL. one of the pastors (lwho has since left for antoher church) used to be an athiest before he came to Willow Creek to disprove it with a friend. He has since talked to many scientists that have said the odds of us randomly coming together as we are, are so high that they are not even calculatable. they said you could go into your batheroom with a box of tiles, a tube of calk, throw it at the wall and have all the tiles end up in perfect order....on the wall, with the calk keeping them on the wall. Way past impossible.

    Green Bay, you very comment about "we are put here for a reason" contradicts your disbelieving in a God. We can not be here for a reason without there being a cause of that reason.

    Porky, the bible is a combination of books transcribed of a period of about 300 years. They were not done together or at the same time. They were written by different people, some of whom never knew each other. Yet, the bible does not contradict itself anywhere. Odds are pretty slim that that many books would be written and not have any contradictions.

    The crux of belief comes in Jesus Christ. Was he who he says he was or was he a fake. Lets look at both possibilites:

    Fake: then the bible and all he taught were lies.
    Son of God (whom he claimed): Then all he said must be taken as fact. He is the son of God. The earth was made as heaven and as the old testament said. (providing validitly to the bible)

    So, how do we know whether he is real or fake?
    I look to the bible for that one. Using it purely as eyewitness accounts and not "God inspired", it still can answer the question.

    How did he prove he was the son of god? He came back from the dead.
    So did he or didn't he. If he did, then he in fact was the son of God. and if he didn't then he was of couse, a liar.

    Here is where it gets interesting. All the apostles claim to have seen him risen. They saw his wounds. Doubting Thomas even put his fingers in Jesus' holes in his wrists. Now of couse, not all of them could have had the same hallucination. So either they all saw him (proving he came back) or they all sat around a table and made up the lie to keep the belief going.

    The last statement could have been plausible except for one thing. 11 of the 12 apostles were later, individually, put to death for their belief in Jesus as the son of God. Can anyone honestly give up their life for a beilief they KNOW is a lie? Not in my book. So they must have had full belief in the fact that he DID come back from the dead, and he IS the son of God.

    Science is constantly proving christianity....not disproving it. Most scientists firmly believe in God.

    There is a book called "Evidence Demands a Verdict" by Josh McDowell. It is a long and detailed book. Josh started out as a firm athiest who's job was to validate authenticity of history books in general. He set out to purposely disprove the Bible. Guess what? he is now a born again christian who has since written many books on christian apologetics.

    Believers and non believers do agree on one thing. Jesus Christ walked the earth. Secular and Non Secular books document it. The question that is the most important is "Is he who he says he is."

    Seek out that answer and it may just change your life.....and your eternity.
     
  11. PackFanInSC

    PackFanInSC Cheesehead

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    The Bible was written in 66 books by 40 authors over a span of 1500 years. Paul wrote to Timothy that all Scripture is "God-breathed" or inspired of God. As I posted before, there are 1093 prophecies in the Old Testament fulfilled by Jesus and His Church. To presume that the writers of the Gospels sat down and concocted the stories about Jesus that so perfectly fulfilled so many prophecies -- all written at least 400 years earlier -- would be preposterous. The probability that one man could to fulfill just 40 of those has been calculated at 1 times 10 to the 157th power.
    That is 1 in 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
    000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.

    To fulfill just 50 would be 1 times 10 to the 897th power (No, I am not going to type that out.)

    Many of the claims of the Bible are being supported by archaeologists. Names and places that were previously believed to have not existed and showing up in carvings at archaeological sites. Arcaeological Findings Verify Reliability of Bible

    Lynch, I don't know if you ever look at the links that I send you. Just in case, here is the above link-- In Swedish
     
  12. porky88

    porky88 Cheesehead

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    Trip I know that.

    There are many things left out of the bible is my point. For whatever reason they were not put into it. Jesus' apostles are the best example of this. Some texts written by some apostles were left out. Why? The Church deemed them not important but some of it also does contradict with what others saw. Personally I just think everyone saw Jesus from a different perspective. Such as the gospel of mary magdalene which was found and proven to be a legit piece of ancient writing.

    Why was it left out or not taken seriously at all? My guess is because she was a women. I'm not challenging the church or anything or the bible itself. I simply have my beliefs. I respect everyone’s beliefs including those who interpret the bible as complete fact from start to end. I just believe the bible is not 100% correct because it is not written from the exact hand of god. It is written by man. In the 1400’s if they new what we know now would we even be having this debate about evolution? Who knows?

    I was watching the history channel and there is a text that is a legit piece of ancient writing and it came from the dead sea scrolls I believe. It makes man and women equal by stating that their was a women before Eve. Why was this not put into the Genesis story. It actually then goes into the genesis story I believe?

    Trippster I actually agree with you 100% on your take on evolution. I believe god was that independent party so to speak. I believe he gave us a soul, free will, sounds, feel, etc.. God is who he is. I am who I am I believe is the saying. To me when the universe started as a tiny little marble. Well who created that marble? How can nothing become as extraordinary as the universe is. To me that was God. Like I said I think the bible is an excellent way to morally base your life around. I just don’t take all of it as literally as other people do and I’m certainly not alone in that aspect.
     
  13. Pack93z

    Pack93z You retired too? .... Not me. I'm in my prime

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    Been reading all the excellent takes and points of each and every poster that has noted their beliefs. So I will elaborate a bit on a couple of personal takes and beliefs. First let me say that I very much believe in God, however organized religion was developed by man and thus like anything else that we craft is prone to error and "view" serving munipulation of God and Jesus's true teachings.

    As stated above, I believe that God created the universe, earth and the basis of what we know as life. But that is where I think as indivduals that were created of free will and mind need to define for ourselves what powers of God he inflicts on each one of us and how much control he commands.

    In our day to day life I truely don't believe God nor Jesus controls us via thoughts and actions, hence free will, but he does guide us to a point. Thus God may have put us here, and may have a reason for us to be here, however it is our choice to choose which paths we shall take thoughout this life.

    Therefore, I believe "God's Will" is a general principle of be good to your fellow man, respect his word and teachings. However once we as individuals make a choice in Life it isn't part of his Master plan, it is a consequence of those choices. If you break the word of the Lord you will have to face those consequences when your time is up.

    With that said, evolution and society growth are somewhat out of God's hands so to speak, loosely of course. To me that is part of the Lords vision, to allow life to live so to speak. The earth and nature was created to sustain life, however as science states every action produces a equal or greater reaction, things change. Lifeforms, Man, and nature must change with that reaction, thus evolution.

    As stated once above someplace, if science and religion would open up to each other and learn from each other I think lots of answers may be uncovered.

    Can one be correct in saying they don't believe in God, yes they can. To them it is what there will and thoughts have led them to support and believe. Do I believe that once there time on earth is past, will they be punished for their beliefs, NO I do not. If they have led a good, fair and respectful life to others... why would they be punished? To me there beliefs are no different than anothers.. they lived a life full of goodness. Isn't that the true meaning of life?
     
  14. tromadz

    tromadz Cheesehead

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    You ever read "Forbidden History" ? Some interesting stuff on evolution and on my good friend Darwin.

    Good book, I suggest it.

    Z complaining? shocker!

    [​IMG]
     
  15. trippster

    trippster Cheesehead

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    One can be correct and saying they don't believe in God but that doesn't makes God's existence void.

    There is only one truth regarding God. Either he is or he isn't. Either Jesus was his son or he wasn't.

    If I were to step off the Golden Gate Bridge completely convicted in my belief that I can fly, does that void the existence of gravity? I can believe all I wan't right up to the point of impact. That is where I will feel the consequences of my belief. Same with Christ.

    Christ was very direct, simple, and to the point. Want to get to heaven? Accept him for who he claims and receive his gift of eternal life. That's it. That's Christianity in a nutshell. choose not to and receive the concequences.

    Pack, Good works does not get you to heaven in the christian faith. God was very clear in saying that this is what you must do to achieve eternity with him. He would be an unjust God if he didn't stick to his principles.

    if I offered food to a starving person, all he would have to do to be saved is accept my gift of food. Should he choose not to, he dies. That is our dilemna with God.
     
  16. trippster

    trippster Cheesehead

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    To all posters on this thread:

    This has to be the most mature, thoughtful, respectful, and considerate threads ever on this site. While opinions differ wildly and oppositely, great care has been given to not offend other posters. I am truly impressed with what I have read on this thread.

    Kudos to you all !
    (well, except Cheesy. he just wants curds!)
     
  17. Pack93z

    Pack93z You retired too? .... Not me. I'm in my prime

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    I agree that it doesn't void his existence at all. When there time comes to be judged, yes they will have to make a final mortal choice, do I or don't I believe in the Lord. Judgement day is the final consequence.

    I was born and raised Catholic, and there is lots about the church and there beliefs that I question. There was a point in my life in which I could have turned my back to the God and his son Jesus, but instead I turned my back to the church instead. I searched for another faith that followed more to my beliefs, I have attend many different denominations in that search and have settled things in my own mind.

    Because I turned away from the church didn't eliminate the belief in God and Jesus. Just changed my viewpoint on religion as a whole. The bible is my religion, it is my church and I do my best to live a life of goodness to others. Basically live within the 10 commandments and understand God's place in my life.

    But to your point, yes I believe sooner or later each and every soul with either accept God and Jesus or they won't. Hence that will be their Judgement day.
     
  18. trippster

    trippster Cheesehead

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    I too was brought up catholic. It wasn't until I left the catholic church that I really came to understand my relationship with God, Jesus, and the bible
     
  19. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    Oh, i DO believe that humans and dinosaurs lived together on the Earth. Look at the cave drawings all over the world. In almost all of them you will see dinosaurs depicted. They will even show humans hunting them. Now, where did these people all over the world KNOW what dinosaurs even were if they had not seen them with their own eyes? You can even see dinosaurs drawn on pottery from ancient times. Plus all the stories of "dragons" that are in all countries. The word "dinosaur" was made up by modern day man. They were just called "dragons" back then........different name, same creatures.
    I'm pretty sure that the place where they found dinosaur and human footprints in SOLID ROCK was in Texas. They actually found them by accident. They found some very eroded dinosaur tracks that ran through a river bed. They dammed up the river, so that they could dig down to the tracks under the river bed. Lo and behold, when they did this, they found not only the perfectly preserved dino tracks, but perfectly formed human tracks running with and THROUGH the dino tracks. Now this is in what is now SOLID ROCK! You think that the dinosaur track stayed preserved in mud for "millions of years" until a human just happened to find it, and was barefoot and followed it, and then they became stone together? This find was filmed by a National Geographic team. They of course tried to explain it away, like there must have been some kind of ape that had feet IDENTICAL to modern day humans. So faced with PROOF that their whole "house of cards" known as evolution about to fall down, they just make up another story to try to explain the TRUTH away thats staring them in the face.
    There was also a prominent evolution "scientist" at the site, and they interviewed him. He said "I haven't seen anything here to disprove evolution." What he failed to admit to though, was that he REFUSED to look at the tracks and kept his back to the river at all times! That way he could be HONEST and say "He didn't see anything to disprove evolution"........of COURSE he didn't see it, he refused to LOOK at it!
    Now, i saw this National Geographic film on TV a LONG time ago. It was in the last couple years that I heard the rest of the story about the so called scientist that wouldn't LOOK at it.
    Lynch.....you yourself admit that the whole world was under water at some time. Hmmm.....sounds like the Bible flood to me.


    On another point...........if just being a good person was good enough to get you into Heaven, then why would Jesus have had to suffer and die on the cross? If being good was enough, then he should not have had to come to the earth at all.
    The reason is, sin came into the world through what WAS a perfect man. Jesus was perfect, and thus the only acceptable sacrifice for all mankind's sin.
    I think thats what sometimes makes it so difficult for us as humans. We are offered the "gift" of salvation, with NO strings attached. If you honestly accept the gift, it's yours forever. I look at it as God's gift to me is salvation, what i DO with it is what i give back to God. The Bible states we are to "store our treasures up in Heaven, not on the earth". The way I see that is that we will reap the rewards of doing the things God wants us to do when we die and leave this earth. If you don't do what God tells you after you have accepted Christ, you won't have the "crowns" when you get to heaven that others will have.
     
  20. PackFanInSC

    PackFanInSC Cheesehead

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    I have tried very hard not to include specific verses in my posts because, if someone doubts the credibility of the Bible, they would also doubt the credibility of those verses. But, in light of some of the recent posts, I feel the need to point out that the Bible clearly states that we are saved by GRACE, and not of our own works, so that the glory goes to God and not us.

    For it is by Grace that you have been saved, through Faith -and this not from yourselves, it is the Gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

    Being good or doing good works does not "earn" you salvation -- only the grace (or "unmerited favor") of God does. We have done NOTHING to deserve God's favor. Al Capone gave money to the church. Does that warrant him a place in heaven?

    While James said that Faith without works is dead, that did not mean that your works earn your salvation -- it means that the works are a general outflowing of your faith -- as the example of Christ changes our lives and we become more like Him.


    A few years ago, we had Kirk Cameron (from Growing Pains and the Left Behind movies) at our church. He is affiliated with a group called the Way of the Master -- which does a lot of street evangelism.

    Their presentation of the Gospel was simple. Most people would say that they are good people and have never killed anyone but the Bible says in James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

    Just follow a simple outline:
    * "Would you consider yourself to be a good person?"

    * "Do you think you have kept the 10 Commandments?"
    followed by asking specifically if the person has broken commandments, with questions like
    "Have you ever told a lie?" (9th commandment),
    "Have you ever stolen anything, no matter how long ago, no matter how small?" (8th commandment),
    "Have you ever lusted, which Jesus called adultery at heart?" (7th commandment),
    "Have you ever taken the Lord's name in vain, which is called blasphemy?" (3rd commandment),
    "Have you ever hated, which Jesus called murder at heart?" (6th commandment).

    * Judgment: "If God judges you by the 10 Commandments on the Day of Judgment, will you be innocent or guilty?"

    * Destiny: "Based on that, would you go to heaven or hell?" and if hell, then "Does that concern you?"

    This is not to start a debate of Old Testament law vs New Testament doctrine but to show just how far we fall from the Holiness of God. No person on this earth can attain the holiness that would make him acceptable to God by being "good" -- only through God's grace and His acceptance of Christ's payment for our sin may we enter into his presence.

    But until we, individually, realize our "lostness" -- if that is a word -- we do not see a need in our lives for a God or a need to be reconciled to Him. To just believe that a God exist is not enough -- James says that even the demons believe, and tremble. We need to have a personal relationship with Him.

    Truth is truth -- just because the majority of people think another way or wish to water the message down to a level that does not prick their conscience as much does not change the Truth.
     
  21. bozz_2006

    bozz_2006 Cheesehead

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    i didn't read these posts because i'm tired, but i am attending seminary to be a lutheran pastor, and before you ask, no i'm not an atheist. hahaha. oh, and i'm tired because i'm studying hebrew right now, and let me tell you, Hebrew is just about enough to drive anyone to atheism!
     
  22. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    Great concise post!
    I have had people try to use the "faith without works is dead" statement to say we have to EARN salvation. I came up with an example that i use to try to explain it easily.
    If you were standing in the middle of the road, and you saw a big truck coming right towards you, would you just stand there and say "Yes, I believe thats a truck! I believe it's coming right straight at me! I believe it's going to run me over!" Now......If you honestly believed it, would you just stand there and let the truck run you over? Chances are you would say "WHOA! I better MOVE! Or I'm gonna get run over!" Then you see other people standing in the street, whos fate would also be to be run over. Say you see your friend standing in the road, would you just let him or her get run over? Or would you warn them? "Hey! There's a truck coming and your gonna get killed if you don't move!"
    If you truely believe, it MAKES you work. If you truely believe that without Jesus in their hearts, they will spend eternity in Hell, it makes you WANT to warn them. If you don't care about where others will spend eternity, I would question my own salvation as to whether or not i really believed.
    So you work because you care and want the best for others, NOT to EARN salavation.
    Remember the Bible says salvation is a gift, and the WAGES of sin is death. We EARN death by our sin, but salvation is a free gift from God. We can't earn it, but it wasn't FREE to God, Jesus paid a heavy price for it for us all.
     
  23. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    Lynch.....you questioned my belief that man and dinosaurs were here at the same time. I have found a link that shows you just some of the scientific reasons why i believe this. Please take the time to check out the site before just writting it off. There is alot of good info there that might just make you question what you have been taught.
    I was taught evolution in school too, so it took alot of my own desire to find out what the REAL truth was before i decided on God actually creating things the way they are.
    http://www.creationists.org/mananddinos.html
     
  24. PackFanInSC

    PackFanInSC Cheesehead

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    Lynch,

    I can tell you one way that I KNOW that God exists. Every night at work, I think through my response for this thread for the following morning -- I love to debate and can come up with argument after argument to support my side of the debate.

    When it comes time to sit down and type my response, they have NEVER ended up being what I thought they would. I would type something and get a gentle urging that it would need changed -- that it was not what God wanted to say. The Holy Spirit has prompted every response in this thread -- not just mine but each and every one. Some may be correct, some may not. But even the incorrect ones are needed to be here so that they may be brought to light and discussed. The best way to chase away the darkness is the Light.

    You asked a simple question, "Is anyone on this forum an atheist?" and have received a wide variety of answers. Even some who said "Yes." Even some of the normal posters here have been unusually quiet. I appreciate that because I believe that God is using this thread to perform a work in our lives. Whether it is yours, mine or one of the other posters or even one of the ones just reading it, His words are resonating with someone -- creating in them a new faith, restoring one that once was, or reaffirming one that may just need to be expressed.

    It is my prayer -- and I would ask Cheesey, Trippster, and those who do believe in God and His being the the One and Only Lord and Creator of the universe to join me -- that He will reveal Himself to you in a very real and personal way. In a way that there can be no doubt in your mind that there not only is a God, but that He cares for you, loves you, and is seeking you out.

    The beauty of God's love for us is that, no matter how far away from Him we have strayed, no matter how far away from Him we feel we are, no matter how much we feel we could never make it that far to get back to Him, we do not have to. All we have to do is to repent -- which means "to turn '' -- and turn to Him. He is right there -- with His arms outstretched -- because Jesus came all the way to us so we did not have to come all that distance to Him.
     
  25. Pack93z

    Pack93z You retired too? .... Not me. I'm in my prime

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    This is the exact premise I tried to relay, you on this earth can live your life and believe what your will and mind want to. You are in God's love because of the price the Jesus paid. At any time you can turn to the Lord and he is there. Now there are certain mortal sins on this earth that may alter your path on Judgement day, but God is there to be found if you so choose. In my view a good upstanding noble life, not completely free of sin but walking the path as closely as one can is the basic principles in which I live MY life.

    A little off topic question but in the same lines, how do you believe God seperates an act of Murder vs. taking a life in miltary combat? Wars for the most part are of Man's doing and not God's work.

    PM me with your views if you do not wish to post them as this may be a ultra sensitive subject. Thanks in advance.
     
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