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Atheism

Discussion in 'The Atrium' started by Lynch, Jul 1, 2007.

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  1. CaliforniaCheez

    CaliforniaCheez Cheesehead

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    Discussing religion, politics, and the evil purple slime should all go in the Smack area.

    Packer fans come in parts of the spectrum of humanity but some topics produce crazy threads.
     
  2. all about da packers

    all about da packers Cheesehead

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    Dude, just restart the topic, and make it clear what your guidelines are.I didn't see that freedom discussion at all, until you pointed out the link.

    I'm sure the mod who locked had their reasons, and if he felt it was better off being locked instead of continuing, then that's his call.

    I mean what's done is done. Obviously in the future if I come across a thread, I'll look to delete the off-topic posts, instead of actually locking the thread. But can't we move on from that?
     
  3. PackFanInSC

    PackFanInSC Cheesehead

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    This thread is in the Atrium -- whose description is "Anything Other Than Packer Discussion" -- so it IS in the right place.

    Zero, I also had not seen your thread. I was wondering why you were so adamant that this one be closed and getting quite frustrated with you. Now I understand and apologize.

    AADP, I appreciate that you have kept the thread open as this discussion is more important than anything else that has been discussed here in a long time.

    We have to keep in mind that the things discussed in this thread are, believe it or not, more important than the Randy Moss, Larry Johnson or the free agent of the week. More important than if the Packers were to end up 0-16 and MM and TT get run out of town. It is a game -- only a game -- and, in truth, our lives will go on with or without it.

    But our relationship with God is eternal. No matter how you look at it, we are all eternal creatures right now -- the difference being where that eternity will be spent. Will you be spending time with Reggie White or will you be with Chris Benoit??

    Maybe this thread will answer Lynch's questions- maybe not. Maybe God will use this thread to reach someone who is just reading it and not contributing. Maybe He is using it to help those who have responded practice sharing their Faith or to lift up someone who is questioning their relationship with Him. I do not know but I do know that God's Word does not return void. He has laid each and every response on our hearts for a reason and will use them to accomplish His purpose.
     
  4. Raider Pride

    Raider Pride Cheesehead

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    This is so interesting....

    OK. Let's say there is no GOD. It is evolution, the big bang theory, U.F.O.'s from a distant planet established earth as a science study project for a grade seven science class on the planet Whaotopia Sermonia 500 Trillion light years from us.

    The bottom line is this.

    Some one sat down and took a chisel and carved out some rules. The Ten Commandments.

    Even if there is no God. Someone sat down and said "Hey Igor killed Konan and Konan's wife is crying." She is sad. That is not good. Hey hang on a second here.... "Look Bong took Jona's wife and Bong is crying, that is not good."

    Let's just all follow the rules. I believe in God. You do not so what? Lets just follow the rules.

    It is not important where the rules came from. Let's just play the game by the rules.

    If you do not play by the rules, if you keep cheating, and not following the rules you will end up like Ahmad. Carroll.... A person on the outside. A person with no opportunity to play the game. The game of life, or the game of football? Just follow the rules.

    RP
     
  5. Zero2Cool

    Zero2Cool I own a website

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    Thanks, but I don't want it locked. That's not my beef. I think during the off season threads like this should be kept alive, moderated with care and nudged forward. The beef I had was a thread that others felt was good got locked because of a few bad posts and ... what I felt and others did, a good message was lost.







    Why should one have to restart the topic though? You can't simply quote the topic that is locked and repost. You have to go through it again and reedit some of it. Its not a terrible painstaking process, but it was contributed to this forum and tossed in the junk file.

    You said to make it clear what the guidelines were.

    That's not clear enough?








    You know reading your post AADP sums up exactly why I posted it in the Packer Forum (so ppl would see it) and why I posted what I had quoted above.

    I guess I was just hoping you guys would see how much it meant to some of us and would put some effort into keeping it on track and positive rather than just locking it and letting it drop off the front.


    I'm proud to be an American. And I feel those who sacrificed sooo much so WE could have what (freedom) we feel we DESERVE(freedom) should be properly recognized for there sacrifices during this time of our Independence Day.

    So many people take their freedom for granted, I just wanted us to know why we have that freedom. Or at least remind those who may have forgot or don't think of it on a daily basis like many do not. After that sermon I had a new-stronger appreciation for my freedom.

    This is YOUR site and I respect that. It just bugs me when I see blatant inconsistencies with the staff on a site I consider one of my favorites when I know you guys are better than that.

    I'll drop it now because this wasn't written up for an argument, it was written up to educate us on sacrifices for freedom.
     
  6. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    Unfortunatly, because of man being born into sin, and we all live in this corrupt world, we have to suffer the consequences of our sinful nature. The fact is, the BEST behaved people on this earth have all sinned. Just ONE sin is enough to seperate us from God. I consider myself a "good person", yet i honestly KNOW and admit that i sin every single day. They might be considered "little" sins, but sins none the less. I get angry, impatient, frustrated, not trusting in the Lord, and the list could go on and on. I get mad at God because both my parents and my brother died young, i get frustrated because of my poor health, and like i said, i could go on. Yet i know it was NOT his desire for these things to happen. He takes no pleasure in the suffering of his children, or the suffering of those that deny him. He WANTS everyone to come to him, but he doesn't force anyone.
    As far as religion goes, that was invented by man. And there are always those that will take advantge of people going through hard times to take advantage of them. Anyone that does bad things in the name of God.....well, lets just say, I wouldn't want to be them!
    Like i said before...........I have been burned by "Church people", and it would be easy to use that as an excuse to keep away from God. But the fact is, "church people" are the SAME as non church people, with the same weaknesses and sins.
    I always liked the saying "Christians arn't perfect, just forgiven." And it's SO true. I sin, even though i know it's wrong. But I'm human and imperfect. I don't use my being a born again Christian as a free license to sin (I know some people do that, they figure "I can do what i want, ask God to forgive me, and get away with it!") But it doesn't work that way. God KNOWS whats in your heart, and if that is the way you are doing things, don't think for a second that you are pulling the wool over God's eyes.
    As far as church leaders that misuse their position, just remember.
    To those that much is given, much will be expected. If God gives you alot, you will be expected to use it right. If you don't you WILL answer for it, even if you are a child of God. It says that God will "Wipe away every tear" which to me means that we WILL be held accountable for the times when we let God down. If He tells you to do something, and you don't do it, He will show you on judgement day the treasures you lost because of your disobediance. There will be many tears by many people for what MIGHT have been had they listened to God's call.
     
  7. Lynch

    Lynch Cheesehead

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    [align=left]I´ve got alot of replies on my simple question:
    Is anyone a Atheist in this forum

    I am, just wonder if anyone else is


    But no-one with an answer that says "Yes", instead alot of other replies about that god exist and all that. It has been intresting to read you oppinions,but some fancy words can´t I really understand speically all about da packers who wrote some tough sentcences. But anyway I got you point. I can´t convince you into belive what I do and neither can you. This thread were not supose to do that really, but it has been intresting and a little frustrating.
    I respect you all on this site, because you are Packers fan, and even though our thoughts about either god exist or not is diffrent, will it not make me cahnge my respect.
    I understand that religion is a importent in your country and I suppose that it is in all young countries and thoughs who have been in war alot.
    My country has never had any crisis in hundred years, if you don´t count WWII, and have never been in war for over 200 years, so that´s perhaps why religon is diffrent here.

    But anyhow my concern is not what you belve or not it is what next generation should belive. I dont want religion should be tought in school as a way of describing humans existens and the way the world was created.

    Even how you will put it will probably everyone come to that conclusion that the world has existed a very long time and things easily can be predicted by math and science. But the fath of god don´t have to dissipear I think it will change. I mean if it shall surive or not hurt others does it have to change by time, and certinly now when they have found new pages to the bible that gone lost were it says that Jesus had a women that was teaced by him aswell(don´t now what Judas and all does were called in english) and that Judas didn´t betray him.
    Otherwise the world be a darker place when everyone fight to keep everthing as it is which will lead to bigger gaps beween grops and hospitality. Just look how it is in the middle east. The devotion and love for there own faith and nationlity has turn them against eachother, and look how it was in northern ireland between the chatolic and protestants. Look at WWII.
    As it said on thebelts of the SS officers "God is with us"[/align]
     
  8. Zombieslayer

    Zombieslayer Cheesehead

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    Lynch - I am a Christian, but believe in evolution. Darwin and other scientists of his day were trying to figure out the order to what God was doing. Have you read On the Origin of the Species? Darwin mentions God like 20 times. He himself was either a Christian or a Deist, as were most scientists back in his days. In fact, I had two evolution teachers (I have a Bachelors in History and almost a Masters in Computer Science, and am not too far from having Bachelors in both English and Anthropology as well). One was an atheist, the other a hard-core Christian. They were both wonderful professors, and both very funny as well.

    Evolution neither proves nor disproves the Bible. I do not take the Bible literally, but see it as teaching us how to live, how to be moral. Funny thing is, I've had atheist friends who were more Christian than a lot of Christians I know.

    As for national crisis and religion, that's complete coincidence. I'm not at all slamming your country, but look where you are. You cannot be conquered because you're too far north. Look at history. You were conquerors, not the conquered, remember?

    Now take a country like Poland. Even if they were all atheist, they will be conquered because they're in the middle of everything. It has nothing to do with religion. Or even better, you mentioned the Middle-East. They're even more in the middle of everything than Poland is. The reason they're always fighting is they have too many people with too few resources. It's a freaking desert out there, and there are millions of people. Of course they'll be fighting. Religion is just the excuse to fight.

    You bring up Ireland. People have this all wrong. It is not about Catholics and Protestants. Ireland is a conquered nation, conquered by England. The English stole the land by force and put puppet governments in there, divided the land, and put Lords in there to rule over the subdivided lands. The English and their descendants are mostly Protestant and the Irish are mostly Catholic. So yes, to an outsider, it appears a fight between the Catholics and the Protestants. But in reality, it's a revolution of the oppressed against the oppressors. Even now when the English are moving out, take a guess who owns most of the best lands?

    Very interesting topics, all. I hope this stays civil and doesn't get locked.
     
  9. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    Zombie..........did you also know that Darwin was a racist? He believed that people with darker skin were not as "evloved" as white people. Adolph Hitler developed his whole belief system on what Darwin wrote. That is why he could murder Jews or Blacks and feel he was doing nothing wrong. It was not against the law in Germany to do so.
    My feelings are that my God knows how to do it right in the first place. He doesn't need evolution to make us and everything. He said we are made in HIS image, and I believe Him. If you don't believe the WHOLE Bible, how do you decide what to pick and choose to believe? He tells us to come to him in childlike faith. That means we might not understand how he does things, or why, but to trust that he is truthful and does what he says he will do.
    I have looked at all the "proof" that evolutionists have tried to use as proof, and not one piece of it is proof at all. They take a few bones, and build some kind of "missing link" out of it. Like "Lucy" for example. It's funny how they take ONE skeleton, (which when it didn't meet what they thought, they used tools to FORCE the bones into the shapes they had already decided she should look like) and try to develope a whole lineage out of it. If these things were true, they should find those skeletons all over the place! But they don't.
    Very few people know that the brow on your skull never stops growing. So back when we were closer to perfection, and we lived several hundred years, the brow on skeletons that they have found are larger then we have now. So they built this whole "prehistoric" man out of it. When in fact, they were just humans like us that lived longer. People were taller and bigger back then too. They found a human skull in Wausaukee Wisconsin that was about twice the size of a present day skull. They have found them all over the world that size.
    Think about this............our sun has a gravity too it. But the Earth gets a little bit farther away from it every year. It's a small amount, but measurable. If you multiply it out to 5000 years or so, to see how close the Earth was back then, we still would be ok. If you tried to go back the "millions" of years necessary for evolution, the Earth would have been litterally burned up to nothing by the sun. It would have been sucked in by it's gravity and destroyed.
     
  10. Zombieslayer

    Zombieslayer Cheesehead

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    With all due respect, my friend. It doesn't matter if Darwin was a child molester. It doesn't affect what he was studying. Thomas Jefferson had slaves, but that doesn't mean he wasn't one of the greatest people who ever lived, and wrote some of the most important documents ever.

    Believe me, I've seen all the arguments on all sides of the fence. It won't change what I believe.

    The only reason for mentioning Darwin is that atheists try to use Darwin for "disproving" the Bible, which it doesn't do at all. I'm just saying that science and religion can co-exist. Science tries to explain the physical world. Religion gives us meaning and morality. If I wasn't a Christian, I probably would have killed somebody. But with religion, I know I'll have to answer to the man upstairs when I die. It has kept me out of jail.
     
  11. PackFanInSC

    PackFanInSC Cheesehead

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    Lynch,
    Brother, I do sincerely have my doubts that anyone can convince another person to change their mind unless they want to. You told me that you believe in Math, Logic, Science and yourself. So, if you will, I would like to give you a link to another site that will just list the prophecies from the Old Testament that were fulfilled by Jesus. That is not to mention the other hundreds of prophecies that were fulfilled throughout the history of Israel concerning their being taken captive and then restored to their country but just those relating to Jesus. Please look at the links at Prophecies fulfilled By Jesus. The odds of one man fulfilling just 40 of these prophecies has been calculated at 1 times 10 to the 157th power or 1 followed by 157 zeros. Yet Jesus fulfilled each and every one of them. As a man of Math and Logic, that should mean something to you.

    As for the "new" pages of the Bible to which you refer, I can only assume you mean the Gospel of Judas which was traced back to 150 years after Jesus was crucified. I am not sure what credence can be given to an account given that much later that was written by a Gnostic group with their own agenda.

    Lynch, I may never convince you of the existence of God and it may not be His plan here. It is not my place to convince you -- that job belongs to the Holy Spirit. My job is, as in a court of law, to be a witness and only tell what I have seen and heard.

    Others are reading this thread and this message may well be for them. You say that you have read some of the Bible - I would ask that you read more of it. Read it as a reference book if you like -- to get an idea of what others believe. Find copies of "In His Steps" by Charles Sheldon or "A Case For Christ" by Lee Stroebel. Read the "Left Behind" Series of books by Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins. Even if you read them as fiction, they are great books.

    You say that our reliance on God may be due to our nation's history of conflict -- in reality, we were founded on the desire for a freedom to seek God free from interference from the Church and government. I hope, for your sake, that your country can continue in the peace that it has seen in the past but I sincerely doubt that it will. Maybe God is preparing you for that time -- as things happen in the world around you, He will remind you of the discussion that we have had the past few days.
     
  12. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    Guess we will have to disagree then. It does matter what you believe in whenever you try to "research" anything. It goes to motive. If you already believe that a person is not human because of their skin color (as he calls black people "closer to pure ape) then you will of course not look at things honestly in only a scientific way. You will tilt all your "research" to try to prove your belief, and if it doesn't fit what you believe, you will just throw it out and ignore it. If it truely is science, it should still be happening today. But there is no evolution going on now, because it never happened in the first place. Of course i can't "prove" that, as it is my beliefs based on what God himself says in the Bible. I just don't think that God is capable of telling lies, which is what he would be doing if the Bible is just some elaborate story book.
    I just don't believe God lies to us, thats all. And being as there is no "scientific" proof of evolution ever happening, I choose to believe God instead. Just my personal choice.
     
  13. Lynch

    Lynch Cheesehead

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    There is milion of evidences that evolution happended. Look we have nearly exactly the same genes as shimps 99% is exactly as ours, and any of the other human apes have the similar genes as humans. Just that is a little proof itself that we are an animal, which also is clear when the things we do during a day is 70% instincts.

    [align=left]I´m not a scientist genius I can´t all things I don´t read alot and by then don´t know all numbers and I can clearly have wrong in some things. but I know at least this that both egypt and china have existed alot longer then the world have existed, according to you who say that world was created for 6000 years ago.

    Anyway in just my country can you find remains of people who have died here milion years ago or at least hundred of thougsands yeas ago.
    We find human species before we, **** sapiens, as **** Erectus **** habilis **** rudolfensis , **** georgicus **** ergaster, **** cepranensis, **** antecessor, **** heidelbergensis, **** rhodesiensis, **** floresiensis and the **** neanderthalensis who lived at the same time as **** sapiens in the begining.

    Ivé been at site were we found people from the stone age which is 10 000 years ago

    I can find fossils of milion year old insect and sea living cretured in the marble at my school. THe oldest fossil ever found is 3,5 bilion years old.

    You can read about evolution and human evolution at Wikipedia evolution and
    Wikipedia human evolution

    and with all respect all refrences that you for your creation theory is the bible, I have milins of books as evidence

    I think I´ve said the wrong dates when it coem to when egypt and chinas civilization was started. Egypt was created around 6000 BC. China has been populated 2.24 million to 250,000 years ago. The earliest evidence of a fully modern human in China comes from Liujiang County, Guangxi, where a cranium has been found and dated to approximately 67,000 years ago. THe first dynasty was founded in the early bronze age which is around 5000 bc.
    [/align]
     
  14. Zero2Cool

    Zero2Cool I own a website

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  15. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    We have nearly the same genes as other creatures, so that proves we all are evolved from one thing?
    How about it proves we have the same CREATOR. He used the same materials to MAKE us all. Plus if we weren't made from similar things, we wouldn't be able to digest food, right?
    It proves it took INTELLEGENCE to make us and all things around and for us.
    God put instinctive things into us for us to servive. That doesn't prove we came from an ape. And like i said, why then didn't all apes evolve, and why is there no evolution happening today? If evolution is true, we should be able to see it all around us! You wouldn't be able to MISS it if it were true.
    Some people say that the Bible is just a book of stories........but evolution is nothing but a story made up by man.

    And if you use carbon dating to "prove" things are "millions of years old" you are wrong. I have seen things carbon dated as being millions of years old.....and they were STILL ALIVE! Plus i have seen where they carbon dated a dead mammoth they found on different parts of it's body, and came up with dates hundreds of thousands of years different! One animal coming up with greatly different dates! Yet the use this as "proof" of how old things are. So thats real great for dating things, right?
    Plus there is a place where they found HUMAN footprints running through the rock right along with dinosaur footprints. In fact the human ones went right THROUGH the dinosaur ones. It's PROOF that man, just as he is today, lived WITH dinosaurs. So if thats so, whichit is, that blows evolution and it's entire timeline apart.
    The reason we find rock tools made by humans is that they had to travel to keep up with the animals they killed for food and for their skins. It was easier to make the tools when they got to where they were going then to try to carry all those things. After the flood, men HAD to move and follow the prey animals. All the homes and things were destroyed.

    Chevrolet automobiles and Mercedes Benz automobiles are made of the same things. Metal, plastic, rubber, wires......so that means they all came from a Volkswagen right?
    Even we as humans make things out of the same materials that are totally different.
    Here's a question for you...........take the computer you are using right now. Now, tell me that you don't believe someone manufactured it. Tell me you believe it just came from an explosion in an electronics factory.
    Does that make anymore sense then the intricate makeup of a human being just coming together by some chance? Some "big bang" that happened millions of years ago? It seems evolutionists believe all you have to have is "millions of years" of time, and that makes anything possible. They SHOULD start all their statements with "Once upon a time".......
    Plus, what exploded with the big bang? I have seen it shown as something as small as a period at the end of a sentence. If it were true, everything in the universe would be spinning in the SAME direction. Thats scientific proof that it didn't happen, as we have planets in our solar system that revolve in the opposite direction as the earth.
    These things are ignored though, because they don't fit the preconceived ideas of evolutionists.
    If you find skeletons in the dirt, what does it prove? It proves something died. Thats all. If the skeleton looks a little different then ours, does that prove it's some part of evolution? Look at the disease "rickets".....it causes bones to deform. You don't see it much now, but hundreds of years ago it was a real problem. It caused people to become very bow legged, which resembles what an apes legs look like.......hmmm....wonder if that might be some of the skeletons they are trying to use as "proof" that we came from an ape!
    The fish the coelicanth (not sure if i spelled it right. It's a large lobed finned fish) was said by evolutionists to have been extinct for "millions of years". They found fossils of it with dinosaur fossils. Guess what........they caught a LIVE one in 1933, and many more since then! But you don't HEAR alot about it, because once again it blows apart the evolution "proof".
    Think about it...........the only time in our history where there are fossils is one major event that happened all over the world. It was a quick burial of ALL creatures. We don't get fossils now because they die and are eaten by other creatures. So what happened that caused this burial? The Flood of Noahs time. The creatures died, and floated down to the bottom of the water in layers, as will happen anytime there is a flood. Take sand, stones, feathers and anything else, shake it up in a big pailof water, and it will sort itself when it settles down to the bottom. Heavier things go down to the bottom first.
    Look at the frozen mammoths that have been found way up almost at the north pole. I saw one show they had on the National Geographic channel. The ice had melted partially away, exposing a mammoth tusk and part of the body. They took weeks cutting the animal out of the ice. And it died STANDING UP with grass still in it's mouth. The parts of the animal that were still encased in ice were fresh like the animal had just died. There was almost NO decomposition! Now ask yourself.........what would happen that would bury mammoths (this wasn't the only one found like this) alive with water, and FREEZE the water so fast that the animal didn't even have enough time to FALL DOWN! Plus there was no water in it's lungs! It didn't drown, it froze to death! What could cause this? How about a massive flood that as the Bible says came not only from the above the earth but also came from the "waters of the deep" inside the earth. I believe that cause the earth to shift on it's axis, and caused the poles to become the frozen places they are today. That instantly froze the huge elephant like animals where they stood, buried in frozen water. Is there any other reasonable explanation of how they became buried alive in water? So fast that they couldn't even fall down?
    It sure supports a massive flood.
     
  16. PackFanInSC

    PackFanInSC Cheesehead

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    Lynch, as easy as it is to find a little about just about everything on Wikipedia -- it is not necessarily accurate -- since it is compiled from users like you and I posting the articles. Had I been on there before the person who posted the article, it would have read much differently.

    The fact that all of the civilizations evolved at almost precisely the same time -- as you and I have discussed before -- and there was not organized civilizations further back than 6000 - 7000 years ago would cause me to wonder how we know anything about what happened before then. It just seems odd to me that the age of Adam and all beings that we have a proven record of seem to be relatively the same. I would not trust the dates and times that are given prior to that.

    Let me give you an example. A couple of weeks ago, one of my children's kitten died. I wrapped it up and put it in the garage until I could find a suitable time to bury it when they would not see it. Two days later, I go out to get it and it looked pretty much like it had when I had left it there. I buried it out by our air conditioning unit. The next day, another of our cats had kittens -- two of which were stillborn. I went out to bury them next to the first kitten. While digging the hole, I partially uncovered the other kitten. In the one day underground in a cold wet place, it had become bloated to almost twice its original size and was decaying rapidly. My point is that it is nearly impossible -- even with Carbon-14 dating -- to precisely determine the dates due to differences in temperature and moisture as the time goes on.

    On the Shroud of Turin, some experts claimed that it came from around 1400 AD -- because the Carbon - 14 tests said so. it turned out that they had picked up on fungus that had grown on the shroud around that time instead of the actual materials.

    In regard to the "millions of books" supporting the theory of evolution, I would guess that there are easily just as many supporting the Bible -- not that it needs any help as it can stand alone on its own.
     
  17. porky88

    porky88 Cheesehead

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    I guess I'll throw my two cents into this.

    Do I believe in God? Yes I do.

    Do I believe in everything in the bible? No not at all.

    So while I believe in God I do not believe the bible is 100% accurate on everything. Particularly evolution. I could be wrong and if I am then I am but it's just my humble beliefs. The bible is a story written a long time ago. It’s a story but not fact in my opinion.
     
  18. Lynch

    Lynch Cheesehead

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  19. Lynch

    Lynch Cheesehead

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    [align=left]Carbon 14 is not alway accurate that but it can´t be wrong when it comes to as far back to 10 000-100 000 b.kr. If it says somethiung is, let say 60 000 years old then it doesn´t have to be exactly that old but around 60 000 years old then there can be differnce on 2000- 5000 years because that it so far back in time. But when its dated to be 8000 year then there are a smaller differnce and so on.
    Take a look at this Carbon 14

    Even if you don´t belive that afrcia, asia or wahtever contintent have been popluated longer then 6000 years ago.
    Then what about the dinosaurs?[/align]


    That what I´m saying, I don´t care if people belive in a greater power I just think it´s odd to take everything in a book for granted. I mean who knows what have been changed in it. I mean the pope had a gropl of people controlling what stood in the bible and changed it if wasn´t something they liked. The things that they didn´t want to be in the bible became seperate holy books or was hidden.

    Sweden has a Saint, Heliga Birgitta(Holy birgitta), which wan´t a good person at all but became a Saint because of good linguistic skills. She helped the pope of increesing his power and was rewarded by have an own chapel in rome and becoming a saint after her death. The most things that hapen in the vatican was pure politics and they changed things after their own taste. The bible at that time was written in latin, so who now what they´ve changed?
     
  20. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    Carbon dating is 100% wrong. When they carbon date a LIVE mollusk and it says it's hundreds of thousands of years old, how can you put your faith in something that has been PROVEN that obviously wrong?
    Like i said, evolutionists pick and choose what fits their belief system, and they throw out anything that doesn't fit.
    Carbon dating can't even properly date something from 200 years ago, how can you trust it to be accurate at "millions of years"? All it is is what you are saying we Christians do, believe on blind faith. Evolution IS a religion. It's in no way science.
    Plus carbon dating takes ALOT of things for granted. Like that the carbon loss amount is the same today as it was in the past, which there is NO way of proving. Before the flood the air was much purer then it is now. When they find "amber" (ancient tree sap) and they tap into the air bubbles in it, they find much higher oxygen levels then in the air today. Thats just another reason why people could live for several hundred years back then.
    Our atmosphere was VERY different then it is today.
    As far as people changing the Bible, if anyone HAS changed it, THEY will be the ones that will answer for it on judgement day.
    Your "Bible" is evolution, and that gets changed constantly. Just in the last century they based a whole generation on ONE tooth that was found. It was a "great" find for evolutionists! It made all the papers, and books were written on it! Then the TRUTH came out that it was just the tooth of an extinct pig. Of course they just quickly backed away from this and went onto their next great find.
    In order for something to be science, it has to be able to be proven in a laboratory, and has to be able to be duplicated in a lab. Evolution is not happening now, so it takes faith to believe it. The same thing we do as Christians. We can't SEE God, we take Him by faith.
    I don't mind if you want to believe in evolution, but it's not science, it's science fiction.
    It takes just as much faith to believe that everything came from a rock as it does to believe that an all powerful being that we can't see made everything.
    I can't "prove" to you that God exists. No one can. But i have seen things that defy explanation on a "human" level. Things have happened to me and to people I know that could not just be "chance".
    I truely hope that you open your mind to the possibility that God DOES exist. Just open it for a few moments, and ask Him to show you that he is real. You may end up being surprised!
    Hey........what have you got to lose? If He isn't there, you have NOTHING to lose, right?
     
  21. PackFanInSC

    PackFanInSC Cheesehead

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    What about the dinosaurs? Please read this link at Answers In Genesis.org

    Also another good link at AIG -- Why Human fossils are not found with dinosaur fossils


    As far as your concerns about the Church and the saints that you do not feel deserved sainthood and the politics of it all, please realize that the "Church" is made up of people just like you and I -- who are just as subject to making bad decisions and mistakes as we all are.

    Annanias and Sapphira were members of the Early church and lied to gain recognition before the other members -- and God punished them for it.

    Each individual church body and each individual within those bodies interprets the Bible just a little differently. We see evidence of that even within the posts in this thread. We can spend eternity debating what was meant by one verse or another and waste a lot of time over issues that really do not matter in the big picture.

    I think that, a lot of times, our focus gets re-directed to issues like the baptism of the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues, once saved - always saved, and arguments of that kind that we lose the unity that Jesus desired for His church. His prayer in John 17 was that the world would know that we were His because we were one (unified). We get so side-tracked on the petty little arguments when the only thing that we should be doing is presenting Christ to the world.

    A lot of Paul's letters were to churches in Asia that were going through one controversy or another and he was providing direction, or correction, to them. But, as he wrote in I Corinthians, we are to preach "Christ crucified". We get so wrapped up in our arguments that 1) we forget that Christ is supposed to be our message and 2) we do not act very Christ-like ourselves as our pride gets in the way and winning some philosophical debate becomes more important than reaching a lost world for Christ.
     
  22. Lynch

    Lynch Cheesehead

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    [align=left]I don´t know the accrucay in Carbon 14, but i know it´s relible and I may have been wrong when I said there can be a diffrence in hundred or thousad of years depending how far since the creture or plant died when youtrying to date an age. Look at this:

    Where n is a neutron and p is a proton).
    The 14C formed is rapidly oxidised to 14CO2 and enters the earth's plant and animal lifeways through photosynthesis and the food chain. The rapidity of the dispersal of C14 into the atmosphere has been demonstrated by measurements of radioactive carbon produced from thermonuclear bomb testing. 14C also enters the Earth's oceans in an atmospheric exchange and as dissolved carbonate (the entire 14C inventory is termed the carbon exchange reservoir (Aitken, 1990)). Plants and animals which utilise carbon in biological foodchains take up 14C during their lifetimes. They exist in equilibrium with the C14 concentration of the atmosphere, that is, the numbers of C14 atoms and non-radioactive carbon atoms stays approximately the same over time. As soon as a plant or animal dies, they cease the metabolic function of carbon uptake; there is no replenishment of radioactive carbon, only decay.

    Libby, Anderson and Arnold (1949) were the first to measure the rate of this decay. They found that after 5568 years, half the C14 in the original sample will have decayed and after another 5568 years, half of that remaining material will have decayed, and so on (see figure 1 below). The half-life (t 1/2) is the name given to this value which Libby measured at 5568±30 years. This became known as the Libby half-life. After 10 half-lives, there is a very small amount of radioactive carbon present in a sample. At about 50 - 60 000 years, then, the limit of the technique is reached (beyond this time, other radiometric techniques must be used for dating). By measuring the C14 concentration or residual radioactivity of a sample whose age is not known, it is possible to obtain the countrate or number of decay events per gram of Carbon. By comparing this with modern levels of activity (1890 wood corrected for decay to 1950 AD) and using the measured half-life it becomes possible to calculate a date for the death of the sample.

    As you see it doesn´t have nothing to do with if a flood acured or anything like that.

    I can explain to you, If you can´t understand what it says, i just read about myself in Swedish and it´s more accurate then I thought. I have some prove to show if you don´t belive this that Carbon 14 can predict an age of a thing with no doubt.

    Oh by the way, youve said that there are so many proof that the world has been flooded, and all that, because every culture has a flods story. it´s true that every culture have a flood story because flood happen everywere in the wrodl from time to time. Its a proof itself that you say that every culture has a flood story becuase if everyone died by the flood, exept two people, who was their to tell the stories? You can´t find any evidence that the whole world was flooded, then there would been proof of and huge climat change in the arctic ice.
    Another proof is that if the world wa created for 6000 years . Then the worlds population had to increase with 1 000 000 people every year to come to that number of people that we have on earth today. if the flood occured for what 5,4 or three thousands years? Then the population had to increase with 1 200 000, 1 500 000 or 2 000 000 milion people every year and I have it hard to think that should be possible because then the world would have increased during the 21st centurey with 100 000 000 people. Which is not true right? I can recall that the population would have increased with 5 biliion during the last 5 years.[/align]
     
  23. PackFanInSC

    PackFanInSC Cheesehead

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    Lynch,
    The population would not have grown at an even rate -- as Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japeth could not have raised as many children as, say even a small town hundreds of years later. The Bible does give us some insight into the population growth, though. Jacob and his family moved to Egypt as a family of 70 people. 400 years later, the Israelites in Egypt were counted as 600,000 men plus women and children.

    An interesting study on population growth can be found at World Population Since Creation I'll even admit that website is trying to prove my point so I would also refer you to another site that is much more secular. The US Census bureau has posted a chart that shows the world population growth since 1950 and projects it through 2050. The link is at Total Midyear World Population

    Even Wikipedia (which everyone wants to refer to as being factual) lists similar numbers at Wikipedia -- World Population

    The populations at the year 1 AD are close to what the other sites suggest (200,000 people) as are the current projections. The only problem with Wiki's numbers would be that they try to forcefeed a population of 8000 people into the year 8000 BC yet the population 7000 years later (in 1000 BC) is, (according to them) is 50,000.
     
  24. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    How reliable is carbon 14 dating?
    http://www.drdino.com/articles.php?spec=73
    http://www.drdino.com/articles.php?spec=79
    http://www.drdino.com/articles.php?spec=41
    These are just a few articles that show you the other side of what you are putting your faith in. I hope you take the time to read them, and take it to heart. Please try to keep an open mind when you read these points. I know it's not easy, when you have put your "faith" in something for your whole life, only to see someone show you where what you trusted in turns out to be not so reliable.
     
  25. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    If you REALLY want to know the truth, here is a site that can give you much more detailed answers then I can give you on here.
    PLEASE take the time to look at these clips, and I think it may make you question your faith.
    http://www.drdino.com/downloads.php
    My goal is NOT to win an argument with you, but to help you to see that your faith has been put in the wrong spot.
    If you have any questions after checking some of these links out, please feel free to ask me and I will try to help!
     
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