As a Falcon's Fan...

[dchen46]

We could play with either Jones or Daniels at base DE, but we could not get away with both. They're too small. Daniels strength is as an inside nickel pass rusher in rotation. Jones has not demonstrated any particular strength...his few snaps have been, again, at nickle DT. Without Raji and Jolly, we don't have a bona fide base DE on this roster, Wilson notwithstanding since he's a FA as well and probably would be a backup only if kept.

So is the hope for Jones that he will eventually be a pass rushing 3-4 DE? I remember that he was a tweener last draft because he didn't have the strength for DT or the speed necessarily for DE in a 4-3 scheme. Are there any good 3-4 DE draft prospects or free agents that you think the Packers will go after? I could see the Packers retaining one of their D-lineman this offseason and then getting a NT and DE in the draft in the mid rounds.

 

[dchen46]

Are there any arguments in favor of the trade?

I think the argument in favor of the trade is that Julio is a phenomenal talent that we would not have gotten other wise. The Falcons easily could have drafted Torrey Smith who would be a slight downgrade had they kept the original pick. I would say Torrey Smith is probably around the 20th best receiver while Julio is probably top 5. At the same time, the Falcons were also rumored to be interested in Jonathon Baldwin who has been a complete bust in the NFL. Essentially, the Falcons traded away a couple of potential starters and depth players but who's to say our GM would have hit on those picks anyway.

 

[dchen46]

The thing about Perry is that he´s more natural playing on the right side. He won´t get a lot of snaps there of course cause Matthews playing there.

Is there a significant difference between playing ROLB and LOLB in a 3-4? Like does the LOLB have to drop in coverage way more than the ROLB?

 

[dchen46]

What about Jacquizz Rodgers? I picked him up late on my fantasy team and after watching him early on a few times, I thought I hit a home run. Then he kind of flattened out. He certainly looks the part IMO.

Personally, I hate the Jacquizz Rodgers pick. Why in the world would a team pick a RB who is too undersized to handle a full load of carries, too small to be a power back, and too slow to be a true change of pace back? There was a lot of Quizz love for the past couple of years, but it's beginning to die off now, and people are seeing that he really doesn't excel at anything and has pretty much hit his ceiling. The one thing that Rodgers can do is receive out of the backfield, but he doesn't have the speed to break free once he catches the ball.

 

[NOMOFO]

Personally, I hate the Jacquizz Rodgers pick. Why in the world would a team pick a RB who is too undersized to handle a full load of carries, too small to be a power back, and too slow to be a true change of pace back? There was a lot of Quizz love for the past couple of years, but it's beginning to die off now, and people are seeing that he really doesn't excel at anything and has pretty much hit his ceiling. The one thing that Rodgers can do is receive out of the backfield, but he doesn't have the speed to break free once he catches the ball.

He looked good for the first couple games I picked him up. I can't remember what game it was... but one game I saw earlier in the year on TV he was a beast. ....but I do understand one or two...or three games does not a great player make.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Is there a significant difference between playing ROLB and LOLB in a 3-4? Like does the LOLB have to drop in coverage way more than the ROLB?

Well, the ROLB mostly lines up on the offense's weak side, facing the opponent's best tackle. Teams normally want to line up their best pass rusher on this side.

The LOLB mostly plays vs. the strong side of the offense. While you still want a decent pass rusher there, who either faces the RT or a TE, it is important to have a decent run stopper there as teams tend to run in his direction.

 

[dchen46]

Thanks for the explanation. I've always wondered how that turned out. One more question, if you don't mind - what are your thoughts on Ryan? I've always joked that he has the least earned nickname in the NFL. But, I'm curious to hear what a fan thinks of him.

To answer your other questions above, Safety is obviously a need. But TT doesn't really reach in picks too often. So, I think HardRightEdge is probably on to something. I would not be surprised to see DL become the pick, especially if we lose Raji, Pickett, and Jolly. And I think that position will also offer the best value too at our draft spot with Hagemann and Tuitt. I, personally, like the idea of either Irish DL at that spot over reaching on the second best safety, which appears to be a reach at this early juncture.

I think Ryan is a great quarterback. To me, he's anywhere between the 5th best and 10th best QB in the NFL. Obviously, Manning, Brady, Rodgers, and Brees are the best 4, but after that it gets a little muddled. Roethlisberger and Manning both have rings, but honestly neither has really ever impressed me, and they're more a product of their teams than anything else. Rivers and Romo are both kind of like Ryan in that they put up great stats but haven't won a Super Bowl either. And Flacco just sucks. That last one was a little biased, but I honestly believe Ryan is better than him. If you watched the Falcons play this year, it was clear that Ryan was literally all the Falcons had. The O-line got destroyed every play and the only reason Ryan didn't get sacked more was because he got the ball out so fast. The running game and defense didn't do him any favors either. And one last thing to remember is that before Ryan and Mike Smith came along, the Falcons had never had winning records in back to back season, so they pretty much turned the franchise around.

I like Tuitt and Hageman at 3-4 DE for the Packers too. It makes a lot of sense if they're the best players available.

 

[dchen46]

QB: Flynn resigns or Tolzien gets a year of QB school. Either way we can deal.

RB: Lacy (bellcow) Harris (COP) Franklin (3rd down) set.

FB: Could use a PUDFA if Kuhn leaves, but could also move Ryan Taylor

WR: Day 3 pick, but could go day 2. Jones is up this offseason everybody else is up 2014.

TE: Fin was the only real receiving threat besides the raw Bostick. Quarless is a great #2, but is also a FA. Taylor might as well be a FB, and Stony is always inactive. Day 2 pick.

T: The best rookie T in the league (Bakhtiari), one of the best young RT in the league(Bulaga), a 1st round pick coming back from injury (Sherrod), and a spot starter at RT/G (Barclay). I'd say we're good, but could see a late round challenger for Sherrod as the backup LT.

G: Starters set, and Barclay/Tretter as depth. Set.

C: EDS goes and we could use another pick here, probably a 4th rounder.

NT: All but 2013 5th round pick Josh Boyd are FA. Need an early pick here.

DE: We have a bunch of UT pass rushers who could play the weak side end. Could use a run stopper, but Jones or Worthy will probably get some 2 gap work in, and Boyd already has. I'd say set if we could get a NT.

OLB: Pure depth. Clay and Perry are both ROLB, and both often hurt. Neal was unspectacular and on his last year, and everyone else came in to the league better players than they ended the year as (and they weren't real talented to begin with)

ILB: Hawk is aging and we have literally nobody to replace him with, Jones has regressed in a big way, and Lattimore is incredibly limited as a player.

CB: Shields is getting tagged. We're set if Tramon isn't released. If Hyde gets moved to S, we might need a Dime CB.

S: It all depends on how you view Burnett, but the entire position as a whole is a HUGE disaster. Our biggest need IMO is a Centerfielder FS. Others argue that we need a punishing SS like 2012 UDFA Sean Richardson, even though we tend to only use those guys in 3 S and goal line sets. CB converts are definitely on the table.

K: Seems fairly set, maybe UDFA competition.

P: Definitely set.

LS: The P keeps this guy in line. Could see some UDFA competition though.

KR: Day 3 or UDFA. Hyde doesn't drop the ball, but he doesn't go anywhere either.

Wow that was a great summary of the team, thanks man!

 

[dchen46]

Well, the ROLB mostly lines up on the offense's weak side, facing the opponent's best tackle. Teams normally want to line up their best pass rusher on this side.

The LOLB mostly plays vs. the strong side of the offense. While you still want a decent pass rusher there, who either faces the RT or a TE, it is important to have a decent run stopper there as teams tend to run in his direction.

So there isn't really a difference in a 4-3 DE and a 3-4 OLB as far as there roles? Obviously, a 4-3 DE has their hand down, and a 3-4 OLB is in a 2 point stance, but other than that it's not that significant? From my understanding, I always thought the point of the 3-4 is that the defense can send 4 rushers at any time, but since there are only 3 down linemen, it could be any of the 4 LB's that are rushing, though typically it will be the ROLB. In that case, the LOLB would have to be ready to drop into coverage on a pretty consistent basis to cover tight ends, running backs, or just drop into a zone. Though it does make sense that the LOLB would be a better run defender because that's what a LE is as well. So would you say that a guy like Kyle Van Noy or Jeremiah Attaochu would be a better LOLB for the Packers? Both could be available in the 2nd round, but Van Noy is more of a pure LB while Attaochu is a better pass rusher.

 

[dchen46]

He looked good for the first couple games I picked him up. I can't remember what game it was... but one game I saw earlier in the year on TV he was a beast. ....but I do understand one or two...or three games does not a great player make.

Quizz definitely has his moments for sure. He's not the worst player ever by any means, it's just that in my opinion he's kind of a tweener that doesn't fit into any role, so he's just kind of average at everything. I would prefer a true change of pace back over him.

 

[HyponGrey]

Problem I have with Hageman is that he reminds me of Raji. He'll want to play RDE, we'll want him to 2 gap. Still want him...

 

[HyponGrey]

So there isn't really a difference in a 4-3 DE and a 3-4 OLB as far as there roles? Obviously, a 4-3 DE has their hand down, and a 3-4 OLB is in a 2 point stance, but other than that it's not that significant? From my understanding, I always thought the point of the 3-4 is that the defense can send 4 rushers at any time, but since there are only 3 down linemen, it could be any of the 4 LB's that are rushing, though typically it will be the ROLB. In that case, the LOLB would have to be ready to drop into coverage on a pretty consistent basis to cover tight ends, running backs, or just drop into a zone. Though it does make sense that the LOLB would be a better run defender because that's what a LE is as well. So would you say that a guy like Kyle Van Noy or Jeremiah Attaochu would be a better LOLB for the Packers? Both could be available in the 2nd round, but Van Noy is more of a pure LB while Attaochu is a better pass rusher.

Pretty much. A 34 OLB is a DE/OLB tweener with the same responsibilities as a 43 DE, only standing up a yard off the LOS. They're essentially 9 techs. LDE and NT are 2 gappers, the RDE is really more of a 1 gap. The non rusher usually drops into a short zone, or shades the TE/RB, though TE usually goes to the SS. Actually if it makes you feel better you can think of it as a 43 with a blitzing WLB. As has been pointed out before, the nickel set, which is primarily used, is practically identical to a 43. Plus we blitz when we're in base, especially when facing mobile QB. I actually like Van Noy better as an ILB prospect. KVN is the more polished product, but I like Attaochu just a bit better. Attaochu is a speed rusher with a power game who shows good run instincts, if a bit uncomfortable in coverage.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Pretty much. A 34 OLB is a DE/OLB tweener with the same responsibilities as a 43 DE, only standing up a yard off the LOS. They're essentially 9 techs. LDE and NT are 2 gappers, the RDE is really more of a 1 gap. The non rusher usually drops into a short zone, or shades the TE/RB, though TE usually goes to the SS. Actually if it makes you feel better you can think of it as a 43 with a blitzing WLB. As has been pointed out before, the nickel set, which is primarily used, is practically identical to a 43. Plus we blitz when we're in base, especially when facing mobile QB. I actually like Van Noy better as an ILB prospect. KVN is the more polished product, but I like Attaochu just a bit better. Attaochu is a speed rusher with a power game who shows good run instincts, if a bit uncomfortable in coverage.

You touched on a key difference. The 4-3 DE plays the field in front of him, run stop or pass rush. He is, well, a defensive lineman. The 3-4 OLB has to play what's in front of him and be able to drop in coverage. He's a linebacker, after all. One plays with his hand in the dirt; the other does not.

Same body types, same prototype measureables, both edge rush. After that, they're different football players.

 

[HardRightEdge]

So is the hope for Jones that he will eventually be a pass rushing 3-4 DE? I remember that he was a tweener last draft because he didn't have the strength for DT or the speed necessarily for DE in a 4-3 scheme. Are there any good 3-4 DE draft prospects or free agents that you think the Packers will go after? I could see the Packers retaining one of their D-lineman this offseason and then getting a NT and DE in the draft in the mid rounds.

Let's clarify.

The ideal 3-4 DE will play like a DT in base against the run, anywhere from 2 to 5 technique depending how they slide the line. Since the opposition does not tell us their plays in advance, you'd like the guy to be able to put up a pass rush from those sets. Capers has run base 3-4 about 30-35% of the time.

In nickel, the 3-4 DE will either sit if he's not much of a pass rusher, or move inside to rush from what would typically be a 4-3 DT gap. We run these 2 down-linemen sets nearly all of the other 60-65% of the snaps.

The hope was Jones would play inside in nickel; if he got big enough and strong enough he might be a 3-down guy. As it stands, he's not big/strong enough to play base DE, and he didn't get much done rushing the passer inside either, and saw less playing time as the year went on.

I've joked before that Jones might be the next guy to be asked to drop 30 lbs. to play OLB. That might not be a joke.

Daniels was our best nickel D-Line pass rusher this year. He's a little undersized to be playing base DE at 6'0, maybe 300 lbs on a good day. We could probably get away with him on the weak side, or Jones in that spot if he develops into a football player. Worthy is not ideal either at 6'2", 300 lbs., and we still don't know how much, if anything, we'll get out of him.

I think retaining one of the FA big bodies as you suggest is problematic. Raji is a quitter, and I don't use that term lightly, wildly overrated by everybody except those who have watched Packer football these past 2 seasons. Jolly's neck injury was quite serious. While it was at the C5 (not the C3 that is almost always a career ender...Collins, Finley), there's a good chance he'll never see another snap.

Pickett is the most likely to be back, but that's no guarantee; and he's old and would be limited in snaps.

The reaction to this situation by the chattering class is head scratching. You can watch the end-of-the season video chat between Silverstein and LeRoy Butler where they expect none of the 3 big bodies to be signed, then turn around and start talking about what safeties and linebackers we'll draft. This is the typical view among the beat writers. They're stuck in rewind from last offseason when we needed a safety and a linebacker. Things have gotten worse since then.

If the 3 aforementioned big bodies are gone, we'll have one D-Lineman who's shown himself to be productive, Daniels, and that's only in nickel DT. And we'll have only one guy who can play NT or base LDE...Boyd...and we don't know if he'll even be starter material yet.

Pickett, some vet minimum FA and mid-round pick ain't gonna cut it for this D-Line.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I'm seeing Nix dropping to our spot or below in several mocks. The knee surgery was for a torn meniscus; seems like that's generally not considered too serious unlike an ACL. We'll see what happens at the Combine with him.

The more I consider the situation, the more I could see us going D-Line in the 2 of the first 3 rounds unless we pick up an obvious starter-quality FA, not another minimum salary 2-strike PED offender.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

So there isn't really a difference in a 4-3 DE and a 3-4 OLB as far as there roles? Obviously, a 4-3 DE has their hand down, and a 3-4 OLB is in a 2 point stance, but other than that it's not that significant?

There are some differences. First of all 4-3 DEs are bigger than 3-4 OLBs. And while their main target is to either rush the passer or stop the run, OLBs in a 3-4 have to be able to cover sometimes as well (mostly TEs or RBs).

From my understanding, I always thought the point of the 3-4 is that the defense can send 4 rushers at any time, but since there are only 3 down linemen, it could be any of the 4 LB's that are rushing, though typically it will be the ROLB.

The 3-4 is the Packers base defense, mostly used to stop the run though. The Packers line up in their subpackages more often than they play base defense, bringing in another or even two more DBs. In these formations the big bodies on the DL are replaced by two more athletic DLs, who play with their hand downs, and the two OLB line up on the LOS as well, to rush the passer. Capers blitzes (five or more guys rushing the passer) on approximately 35% of the time, rushing either another ILB, CB or safety.

So would you say that a guy like Kyle Van Noy or Jeremiah Attaochu would be a better LOLB for the Packers? Both could be available in the 2nd round, but Van Noy is more of a pure LB while Attaochu is a better pass rusher.

I don´t see them as a good fit for LOLB as I don´t think they´re great defending the run. If TT drafts a OLB in the 2nd round (which I don´t think should be the top priority there) I would like to see him go with Trent Murphy, although the guy played DE at Stanford.

 

[HyponGrey]

I don't think Murphy is athletic enough to play OLB tbh. We'd be better off trying to Justin Smith him.