Aaron. S̶h̶u̶t̶ ̶u̶p̶

[JK64]

Never said he needs traded, but an organization cannot let players run over the coaching staff, other players, or organization, talented or not.

My take is he needs to buy in, just like any other player, or we need to get value and bring in players who do buy in.

It happened to Favre, it happened to Manning (differently, but nonetheless) and it's happened to many other HOF talent players.

Yeah, except the receivers need to get open. They double cover Devante and everyone else is covered like a blanket, then the play breaks down.

 

[sjb12681]

Buy in to an unproven coach? I agree that Rodgers should have an open mind, but Rodgers has established himself, while Lefleur is trying to. Simply because he's saying what he would like to see, doesn't mean he hasn't bought in. That's making assumptions.

And to say Rodgers should blindly buy in with no questions asked, or make any suggestions is to help improve the offense is silly.

So, your take is that when an organization hires a new coach to change the direction of the organization, when push comes to shove and this comes to a head, the coaching staff should defer to the QB over the HC, due to the coach being new?

That's a recipe for an unmitigated disaster.
Wanna know what you get when the Head coach loses the locker room to a QB?

Google "Green Bay Packers 2015-2018".

 

[sjb12681]

I'm not saying AR shouldn't have a voice, but a player should never override the HC.no, I'm not talking about an audible at the line, I'm talking about the Ty Montgomery level "nah, imma do my own thing" type of override, which got him canned ASAP, and rightfully so.

 

[sjb12681]

Yeah, except the receivers need to get open. They double cover Devante and everyone else is covered like a blanket, then the play breaks down.

This isn't backyard football. NFL is predicated on finding ways to beat top level, smart, talented players at every position. It's not just " go get open". There's so much that goes into a successful play, you cannot just wing it all game long and win. It's shocking the amount it HAS worked for us, which is a credit to AR mostly.

But that should be for an emergency, when a play breaks down. Not as an every down situation like recent years. The fact that it's been needed is enough to say that buy in is needed now to get this team disaplined enough not to need it done.

That's game plan strategy. It's what makes the Patriots so good for 20 years. Gamplan disapline will always best what we've been doing lately.

 

[mradtke66]

To deny your quarterback the ability to change plays at the line is arrogance. However perfect the play call, right up until the ball is snapped, you cannot know with certainty what the defense is going to do. If you ascribe to the notion that McCarthy was stubborn and wouldn't adapt his offense with more man-beater routes, this is just the other side of the same coin.

The quarterback has the last chance to influence and correct the the play call. If you're in a bad spot, trust the quarterback to put you into a better one.

If the defense is trying to shoot themselves in the foot, let them. Hypothetically, 1st and 10 on your own 25: If the defense came out in a goal line package against 11 personnel and Devante is single covered by a linebacker (or uncovered entirely), to hell with whatever was called--check to something that gets him the ball immediately.

Past that, it's a matter of degree.

Running an entire game plan from the field is likely too difficult for most players. I think the Manning offense is too far to the other extreme. Few players are smart enough, few teams have enough good receivers to pull it off. If we had the right players to succeed with that scheme, McCarthy's scheme would have carried us further. So I vote let the sideline send in the package, and the playcall. Ideally, with a check to/from a run.

Prohibiting changing other than the check is just as risky. The play caller cannot know all. Both the original call and the check could be horrible plays based on defensive alignment. I would hope your 25 million dollar man knows enough about your offense to check to, at minimum, a safe play you didn't send in--whatever that means in your scheme.

For Rodgers specifically, I hope MLF's scheme has an off-the-cuff hurry up mode to it. Changing personnel on every snap prevents Rodgers from catching them with 12 men.

 

[Do7]

So, your take is that when an organization hires a new coach to change the direction of the organization, when push comes to shove and this comes to a head, the coaching staff should defer to the QB over the HC, due to the coach being new?

That's a recipe for an unmitigated disaster.
Wanna know what you get when the Head coach loses the locker room to a QB?

Google "Green Bay Packers 2015-2018".

You have an odd way of interpreting people's words you know that? I fail to see how you've drawn that conclusion.

It is up to the head coach to EARN the respect of the players, not the other way around. Especially one that is new and unproven. I never said anywhere that he should defer to his QB, but he definitely should demonstrate he knows what the hell he is doing, and at the same time trust his QB if he sees something different on the field.

Trust is a two way street. And if it was up to you based off what you're saying, you'd rather for Rodgers to blindly just buy into a playstyle that has yet to be proven effective, with no questions asked. And then when things don't go well on the field it's typically guys like you that will pin the blame on Rodgers. I don't expect Rodgers to go over authority in regards to the head coach. From what I've read he seems like he's bought in, but at the same time if he sees something or believes something will help the team win, it would behoove the head coach to at least consider it, especially with a generational talent as Rodgers. To deny a QB of Rodgers caliber to change plays at the LOS is not only stupid, but a recipe for disaster. Heaven forbid Rodgers not changing plays when we know how questionable McCarthy's plays were. Or are you one of those individuals that thought that McCarthy's play calling was good?

No one is saying for him to defer, but Leflear has to EARN the players respect. If he proves to be poor, then there's a likeness that the players turn on him and won't adhere to him, NOT JUST THE QUARTERBACK. We've seen it before.

I'm not saying AR shouldn't have a voice, but a player should never override the HC.

And who said Rodgers will override his head coach? Again you're making an assumption.

 

[XPack]

This isn't backyard football. NFL is predicated on finding ways to beat top level, smart, talented players at every position. It's not just " go get open". There's so much that goes into a successful play, you cannot just wing it all game long and win. It's shocking the amount it HAS worked for us, which is a credit to AR mostly.

But that should be for an emergency, when a play breaks down. Not as an every down situation like recent years. The fact that it's been needed is enough to say that buy in is needed now to get this team disaplined enough not to need it done.

That's game plan strategy. It's what makes the Patriots so good for 20 years. Gamplan disapline will always best what we've been doing lately.

Any game is part planning and part improvisation, both by coach and players. There are multiple inputs that the players can get that a HC cannot. If you are looking at a video game type play where the HC calls the shots and players just execute them, then it's not really a good strategy...just like purely winging it was not.

The rift between MM and AR happened because the strategic part of MM was failing badly and had to be covered by tactical play from AR. If Matt comes up with a attractive/innovative playbook, then sure AR will happily play his part.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Wanna know what you get when the Head coach loses the locker room to a QB?

Google "Green Bay Packers 2015-2018".

McCarthy did not lose the locker room to the QB. He just lost the locker room. Discipline and accountability reached a low ebb, compounded by a talent deficit.

Rodgers almost never comments on the defense, and yet Randall and Clinton-Dix were not traded just to get a backup QB and a draft pick. Rodgers didn't tell Montgomery to run that ball out of the end zone, quite the opposite. He didn't tell Whitehead to slap a guy and get tossed. And he certainly didn't advise the special teamers to commit that ungodly number of penalties in the first half of the season. And I'm pretty sure he didn't tell Jones to demand a trade, a self-delusional demand he's not come remotely close to justifying.

I'll be the first to say Rodgers post-game press conference performances early in the season went far overboard in blaming everybody but himself for poor performances (even if he was right), but in the final analysis Rodgers' carping about the play calling was symptomatic of a broader set of issues not of his making.

 

[sjb12681]

McCarthy did not lose the locker room to the QB. He just lost the locker room. Discipline and accountability reached a low ebb, compounded by a talent deficit.

Rodgers almost never comments on the defense, and yet Randall and Clinton-Dix were not traded just to get a backup QB and a draft pick. Rodgers didn't tell Montgomery to run that ball out of the end zone, quite the opposite. He didn't tell Whitehead to slap a guy and get tossed. And he certainly didn't advise the special teamers to commit that ungodly number of penalties in the first half of the season.

I'll be the first to say Rodgers post-game press conference performances early in the season went far overboard, but in the final analysis Rodgers' carping about the play calling was symptomatic of a broader set of issues.

I agree with your post. My take on the Packers last few years was that a coach not being the top voice in the room leads to this type of locker room/team.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I agree with your post. My take on the Packers last few years was that a coach not being the top voice in the room leads to this type of locker room/team.

Players know the difference between the status of a franchise QB and themselves. Montgomery is not saying to himself, "Rodgers overrides play calls so I'll override my instructions and run it out of the end zone." If that were the case then the real problem is having very stupid players.

No, in fact, by one report Montgomery was p*ssed at being pulled out of the game on the previous series. So, that's a Montgomery-Coach dynamic right there that has nothing to do with Rodgers. To hear the "accountability" drum beat this offseason, these instances were not isolated.

McCarthy was low on good players and he ran out of gas, falling back on "process" with not enough player engagement or connection or whatever you want to call it when the underlings don't listen. Those are the problems in a nutshell. All the other Rodgers-McCarthy stuff was going on when the team was winning, and if it was rightly perceived as growing worse then, I repeat, there were broader issues at play.

 

[sjb12681]

You have an odd way of interpreting people's words you know that? I fail to see how you've drawn that conclusion.

It is up to the head coach to EARN the respect of the players, not the other way around. Especially one that is new and unproven. I never said anywhere that he should defer to his QB, but he definitely should demonstrate he knows what the hell he is doing, and at the same time trust his QB if he sees something different on the field.

Trust is a two way street. And if it was up to you based off what you're saying, you'd rather for Rodgers to blindly just buy into a playstyle that has yet to be proven effective, with no questions asked. And then when things don't go well on the field it's typically guys like you that will pin the blame on Rodgers. I don't expect Rodgers to go over authority in regards to the head coach. From what I've read he seems like he's bought in, but at the same time if he sees something or believes something will help the team win, it would behoove the head coach to at least consider it, especially with a generational talent as Rodgers. To deny a QB of Rodgers caliber to change plays at the LOS is not only stupid, but a recipe for disaster. Heaven forbid Rodgers not changing plays when we know how questionable McCarthy's plays were. Or are you one of those individuals that thought that McCarthy's play calling was good?

No one is saying for him to defer, but Leflear has to EARN the players respect. If he proves to be poor, then there's a likeness that the players turn on him and won't adhere to him, NOT JUST THE QUARTERBACK. We've seen it before.




And who said Rodgers will override his head coach? Again you're making an assumption.

Buy in to an unproven coach? I agree that Rodgers should have an open mind, but Rodgers has established himself, while Lefleur is trying to. Simply because he's saying what he would like to see, doesn't mean he hasn't bought in. That's making assumptions.

And to say Rodgers should blindly buy in with no questions asked, or make any suggestions is to help improve the offense is silly.

This is just one quote. While not a direct word for word, It seems pretty clear your take is that when it comes down to it: Rodgers is the leader, he is proven, and while he should try to have an open mind... when push comes to shove, you think that Aaron is not obligated to fall in line as a player and listen to his coach, should he disagree, due to LaFluer "trying to" become an established coach.

Yes, LaFluer has to earn the respect, it isnt given. But the Coach is also the default leader of the whole team. It has to be a partnership, but at the end of the day, the coach is the coach and the player is the player. If Aaron undermines the efforts to get those around him to buy in, MLF will not have the chance to become a great coach, Aaron will still have to retire in a few years, and we will look like the Packers circa mid 80s again.

Maybe he winds up sucking and AR will be the mastermind we all know he can be. But until he IS the head coach, he should respect the HC and his plan.

 

[sjb12681]

Players know the difference between the status of a franchise QB and themselves. Montgomery is not saying to himself, "Rodgers overrides play calls so I'll override my instructions and run it out of the end zone." If that were the case then the real problem is having very stupid players.

No, in fact, by one report Montgomery was p*ssed at being pulled out of the game on the previous series. So, that's a Montgomery-Coach dynamic right there that has nothing to do with Rodgers. To hear the "accountability" drum beat this offseason, these instances were not isolated.

McCarthy was low on good players and he ran out of gas, falling back on "process" with not enough player engagement or connection or whatever you want to call it when the underlings don't listen. Those are the problems in a nutshell. All the other Rodgers-McCarthy stuff was going on when the team was winning, and if it was rightly perceived as growing worse then, I repeat, there were broader issues at play.

Here's from that Bleacher Report article this off-season:

"...one play in New England, Rodgers told [Equanimeous] St. Brown to run a post route when the play called for a flag (an outbreaking route run where the receiver starts vertical then runs, at an angle, toward the pylon). St. Brown ran the post, and pressure forced Rodgers to throw the ball away toward the flag—leading his position coach to grill him on what he was thinking.

St. Brown told him he was “improvising” so he didn’t upset Rodgers.

Knowing what was up, McCarthy told him to stick with the routes called..."

There are absolutely times when these players were defying coaches to keep AR happy.

The TM play wasn't that, but when you allow the table to be set in such a way, this is the type of food that gets served.

 

[Mondio]

Didn't some players give the actual account of what happened in NE on that play, and it wasn't like it was portrayed? I thought Adams weighed in on that?

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

I think people are running parallels of McCarthy coming in and cracking the whip on Favre..... Who was throwing like 15-20 questionable picks a year. And as it turned out. He dropped it to single digits Ints...

Rodgers on the other hand has maybe the best td/int ratio ever....

What we needed was some solid oline and dline picks . and protect him. Let that guy loose and he'd be dropping 500 yds a game. Adams would be a super star.

I'm still optimistic. But I think #12 s injuries have come from oline not being stacked enough and oline injuries. Bahk goes down and the whole line crumbles. Bulaga goes down and we lose effectiveness. Evans Was great for us last year. And he was not made a priority. Mo Wilkerson wasnt replaced either.....

Made a weakness weaker and didnt fix it. Imo.

 

[mradtke66]

I'm still optimistic. But I think #12 s injuries have come from oline not being stacked enough and oline injuries. Bahk goes down and the whole line crumbles. Bulaga goes down and we lose effectiveness.

The problem with that is underestimating the number of quality tackles available. You just whined, "Whey my Lamborghini is broken, I don't have a Ferrari to fall back on. Wah."

That's what you sound like when you complain about not being 3 deep at offensive tackle.

Evans Was great for us last year. And he was not made a priority.

That was two years ago.

He got old and retired. He played for no one in 2018.

Billy Turner is the 2019 version. And he's younger.

Mo Wilkerson wasnt replaced either.....

Sure he was.

Za'Darius Smith, at 275, is an OLB/DE/3-Technique DT tweener. That's your replacement.

 

[Do7]

This is just one quote. While not a direct word for word, It seems pretty clear your take is that when it comes down to it: Rodgers is the leader, he is proven, and while he should try to have an open mind... when push comes to shove, you think that Aaron is not obligated to fall in line as a player and listen to his coach, should he disagree, due to LaFluer "trying to" become an established coach.

Yes, LaFluer has to earn the respect, it isnt given. But the Coach is also the default leader of the whole team. It has to be a partnership, but at the end of the day, the coach is the coach and the player is the player. If Aaron undermines the efforts to get those around him to buy in, MLF will not have the chance to become a great coach, Aaron will still have to retire in a few years, and we will look like the Packers circa mid 80s again.

Maybe he winds up sucking and AR will be the mastermind we all know he can be. But until he IS the head coach, he should respect the HC and his plan.

The fact you bolded my words in red only buffers my point in how astonishing at how you've interpreting people's words. You have a knack for assuming I'm starting to notice. You might want to work on that.

Where the hell did I say Rodgers is not obligated to fall in line and listen to his head coach? Good lord man, I swear you're making **** up as you go.

As for coach for being the defacto leader, with respect, no ****! What I find hilarious is that you go about saying this has to be a partnership and yet you're sitting here saying that if Rodgers is being insubordinate if he feels differently or has any suggestions in order to help the offense. By your logic, Rodgers should simply take the play calls and execute them right down the center, no audibles, or anything even if he sees something differently, because according to you that would be undermining the HC. Thank God you're not a head coach.

What I also find hilarious is that you also acknowledged that you jumped the gun with your assumptions and here you are going back to them as if Rodgers is going to undermine the coach, when all evidence points to the contrary.

 

[sjb12681]

Wow.

You asked why I made "assumptions" and politely, I bolded your words as to why I stated my opinions on them. I think I've answered and been very clear in my take on this, you instead are now just kind of lashing out at me with every reply.

Apologies, I don't agree with you, I've stated the original post was off point and accepted responsibility for jumping the gun on this specific post. You said I misinterpreted your words, so I bolded the words I interpreted, read them back to you, and gave my take on what I thought you were trying to say. Your reply is I'm "making it up as I go".

It's a fruitless conversation at this point.

While I may have jumped the gun on the original topic, you've been rude, arrogant, over the top, and attacking in every post since.

Calm down friend. It's a football message board. You think one thing. I think another.

We don't have to agree.

 

[GleefulGary]

Here's from that Bleacher Report article this off-season:

"...one play in New England, Rodgers told [Equanimeous] St. Brown to run a post route when the play called for a flag (an outbreaking route run where the receiver starts vertical then runs, at an angle, toward the pylon). St. Brown ran the post, and pressure forced Rodgers to throw the ball away toward the flag—leading his position coach to grill him on what he was thinking.

St. Brown told him he was “improvising” so he didn’t upset Rodgers.

Knowing what was up, McCarthy told him to stick with the routes called..."

There are absolutely times when these players were defying coaches to keep AR happy.

The TM play wasn't that, but when you allow the table to be set in such a way, this is the type of food that gets served.

You need to do a little more research. This one is easily debunked by current players.

 

[Do7]

Wow.

You asked why I made "assumptions" and politely, I bolded your words as to why I stated my opinions on them. I think I've answered and been very clear in my take on this, you instead are now just kind of lashing out at me with every reply.

Apologies, I don't agree with you, I've stated the original post was off point and accepted responsibility for jumping the gun on this specific post. You said I misinterpreted your words, so I bolded the words I interpreted, read them back to you, youand andgave my take on what I thought you were trying to say. Your reply is I'm "making it up as I go".

It's a fruitless conversation at this point.

While I may have jumped the gun on the original topic, you've been rude, arrogant, over the top, and attacking in every post since.

Calm down friend. It's a football message board. You think one thing. I think another.

We don't have to agree.

And once again you're assuming. Now you're assuming in which the tone I am speaking when it's simply text. I mean geez, it's not like I typed everything in all caps and did something along the lines of: OMG YOU'RE SO DUMB! BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH!

Get my drift? It's not like I told you to **** or used any derogatory words such as saying you're stupid and whatnot.

Also, never said you had to agreed with me pumpkin? Im having a debate with you. See this is what annoys me with people on the internet. People give off their opinions freely, and when someone challenges them, they feel like people are attacking them. Here's a tip, if you decide to give your thoughts and opinions freely on the internet, then prepare to have it potentially criticized. That's pretty much what debating is.

Again I just find it weird, that you acknowledged that you jumped the gun and then you go on and say how Rodgers is potentially undermining the coach simply because he may not see everything differently.

I can see that you're taking what I'm saying a bit personal, so I'll back off. Apologies, if I you took what I said was me being harsh or mean spirited. I was having a debate. Agree to disagree.

 

[sjb12681]

You need to do a little more research. This one is easily debunked by current players.

Thank you for the suggestion. I quoted the info I've found. If you have something that easily debunks the quoted material, would you please provide it? I'm happy to read it.

 

[sschind]

It was more of a **** because a single play hasn’t been run from scrimmage. It’s like crying that your wedding scheduled for July 17th of 2021 is going to be rained out because the farmers almanac said we may have a wetter summer that 2 years from now.

Are we all that sensitive these days. If you think my nonchalant attitude toward it in June is a tad out there, feel free to tell me the same 4 lettered acronym. They’re just words. And if Rodgers makes this team implode, feel free to rub my face in it daily. I can handle it.

Rodgers hasn’t done anything. And Windbag Florio must need clicks to pay the mortgage this month. After practically a decade of dominance at the position, 2 injury filled seasons and the guy who has worked his *** off to be what he is on this team is the antichrist according to a writer paid for clicks lol

Thanks a lot Mondio. My fiance drove me crazy trying to pick the perfect wedding date and now you are telling me its going to rain that day. I can't take it any more. I give up. I can't go through this again. I'm calling the whole thing off and YOU can explain it to her.

 

[sjb12681]

And once again you're assuming. Now you're assuming in which the tone I am speaking when it's simply text. I mean geez, it's not like I typed everything in all caps and did something along the lines of: OMG YOU'RE SO DUMB! BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH!

Get my drift? It's not like I told you to **** or used any derogatory words such as saying you're stupid and whatnot.

Also, never said you had to agreed with me pumpkin? Im having a debate with you. See this is what annoys me with people on the internet. People give off their opinions freely, and when someone challenges them, they feel like people are attacking them. Here's a tip, if you decide to give your thoughts and opinions freely on the internet, then prepare to have it potentially criticized. That's pretty much what debating is.

Again I just find it weird, that you acknowledged that you jumped the gun and then you go on and say how Rodgers is potentially undermining the coach simply because he may not see everything differently.

I can see that you're taking what I'm saying a bit personal, so I'll back off. Apologies, if I you took what I said was me being harsh or mean spirited. I was having a debate. Agree to disagree.

You keep saying my take is AR having a random thought against LaFluer is undermining him. I'm not.

I'm saying he needs to work the game plan and not freelance away without coach approval. Been the whole point of the topic. You've turned it into a he said/he said drama. I'm not "assuming" your words, I am repeating them. You've spent the last 24 hours attacking every nuance of my posts.

I get it, you disagree. But at this point, the conversation has zero worth, or point really. You aren't making an argument, you're just arguing. The 2 can be easily confused. Easy solution is to find another post. Your points been well given and taken.

 

[Do7]

You keep saying my take is AR having a random thought against LaFluer is undermining him. I'm not.

I'm saying he needs to work the game plan and not freelance away without coach approval. Been the whole point of the topic. You've turned it into a he said/he said drama. I'm not "assuming" your words, I am repeating them. You've spent the last 24 hours attacking every nuance of my posts.

I get it, you disagree. But at this point, the conversation has zero worth, or point really. You aren't making an argument, you're just arguing. The 2 can be easily confused. Easy solution is to find another post. Your points been well given and taken.

That is cute coming from you, especially when there has been other people aside from myself that disagreed with your...assessment, and that's putting it kindly. But you're right. This conversation has zero worth, and is a waste of time. I can say the same goes for this thread if we're being completely honest.

 

[Mondio]

Thanks a lot Mondio. My fiance drove me crazy trying to pick the perfect wedding date and now you are telling me its going to rain that day. I can't take it any more. I give up. I can't go through this again. I'm calling the whole thing off and YOU can explain it to her.

I’m just going to tell her to ****, it’s gonna be fine

 

[sjb12681]

That is cute coming from you, especially when there has been other people aside from myself that disagreed with your...assessment, and that's putting it kindly. But you're right. This conversation has zero worth, and is a waste of time. I can say the same goes for this thread if we're being completely honest.

Hey! We finally agree on something!

See? Common ground. I knew you would come around. Way to grow D.O!