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Aaron Rodgers hard count, dead play?

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by Brandon, Sep 29, 2015.

  1. Brandon

    Brandon Cheesehead

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    So a couple of weeks ago I was listening to my local radio station, a Minnesota based station, and one of the hosts mentioned that Aaron Rodgers is probably one of the few QB's if not the only QB in the league to be given his hard count off-sides inducing penalties a free play instead of a dead-ball. At first I dismissed this as speculation of a Vikings homer, but upon watching the game against the Chiefs I can't help but wonder if he's right.

    Twice in this game against the Chiefs (at least twice anyway) Rodgers got the defense to jump off sides, and EACH time Bakhtiari would move early and point at the defender that jumped. Now by rule shouldn't the refs stop the play? I notice when this happens the entire defensive line just hesitates and stops playing before realizing the play is in fact still live. When I'm watching other NFL games on sunday ticket and I see this, the refs pretty much always call the play dead and call an encroachment penalty.

    Is this simply preferential treatment for a godly QB?
     
  2. adambr2

    adambr2 Cheesehead

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    Bahk jumped when the D jumped but they probably determined it was simultaneous with the snap. It was close.

    I don't think there's any preferential treatment to Rodgers on this. When the offense jumps before the snap after the D jumps into the neutral zone, or when the defense jumps and is unabated to the quarterback, or when a defender makes contact with an offensive player, the play is blown dead. Otherwise, it's a free play. I haven't seen indications that they've been violating this for Rodgers. He draws many more offsides and neutral zone infractions than most QBs so of course he gets more free plays.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2015
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  3. Mondio

    Mondio Cheesehead

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    I think the people in MN are just looking for something to bitch about. If the snap is close, they usually always let it play out, unless the defender jumps so much he has a free run at the qb, they usually blow that dead immediately.

    I should have read the previous response, so, what he said :)
     
  4. TJV

    TJV Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    I think adambr2 has it right - the ball is snapped just before or simultaneously with the OL moving. The nfl channel just showed the Jones TD and I think it's clear Bakhtiari moved with the snap. Here's what I hope defenders don't learn: Once they are off sides and the ball is snapped, they should go full speed at Rodgers so they would have a chance at the play being whistled dead. You aren't rushing unabated at the QB if you're standing still!
     
  5. Raptorman

    Raptorman Vikings fan since 1966.

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    Rodgers isn't the only one who gets this. Brady gets it. Manning gets it. Dalton does not. Tannehill does not. Once the O-lineman moves the play should be called dead. If he does not move they can continue playing. Part of the problem that I have noticed is that the ref throws the flag high in the air on these plays and the defense relaxes while the offense keeps going. They need to work on something. If the play is live the flag should be thrown down and if dead, high in the air? Just a thought.
     
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  6. AmishMafia

    AmishMafia Cheesehead

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    Or just play till you hear the whistle.
     
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  7. Mondio

    Mondio Cheesehead

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    That's way too complicated
     
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  8. Mondio

    Mondio Cheesehead

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    I"m sure all teams will be coached to continue to the qb if they jump offsides. It's about the best outcome for them. Give GB 5 yards instead of a TD.
     
  9. TJV

    TJV Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    Agreed, but they talk about being coached for the hard count, too. :D
     
  10. XPack

    XPack Cheesehead

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    The difference is whether he has contact with the offensive player.

    Offside is a defensive player moves across line of Scrimmage but has no contact with offensive player. Play continues.
    Encroachment is when defensive player across line of Scrimmage but comes into contact with offensive player. Dead ball.
     
  11. Munch

    Munch NFL Owner

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    On a side note, what do you think Rodgers completion rate is on 'free plays'? I'm guess 95-99%. If anyone has info I would love to read it.
     
  12. TJV

    TJV Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    Right, but unabated to the QB stops the play but doesn't require contact.
     
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  13. Shawnsta3

    Shawnsta3 Cheesehead

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    The most back breaking part for defenses is its always deep down field or for touchdowns. Amazing to see Rodgers and his receivers perfect this part of their game so far this season.
     
  14. Mondio

    Mondio Cheesehead

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    i was thinking that as I typed, but i guess maybe it will be easier to teach, once you start moving, don't stop
     
  15. adambr2

    adambr2 Cheesehead

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    Yes...or if the offsides results in the defender being unabated to the QB or if a false start occurs as a result of the jump. Basically 3 instances I can think of where it's blown dead. Other than that play occurs.
     
  16. Poppa San

    Poppa San SB I trophy First of four Staff Member Moderator

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    Harry Sydney said the same thing on his radio show this afternoon. That is how he'd teach his players but they've been coached for years to try and get back. I can't get yet on how an O-Lineman can wait till the def is backpedalling before he moves and still gets the call.
     
  17. bigbubbatd

    bigbubbatd Cheesehead

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    Gruden talked about this last night. He said the Packers center is also coached to snap when the other team jumps
     
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  18. XPack

    XPack Cheesehead

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    How many free plays have we had till now? There were quite a few against Seahawks too, I recall!
     
  19. weeds

    weeds Cheesehead

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    This is the key to the whole scenario. DL breaks neutral zone and gets back before the snap, no big deal. Ball snapped while the zone is violated flag flies.
     
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  20. Sky King

    Sky King Cheesehead

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    They exploit the normal reaction to jump back and not take any penalty whatsoever. Conventional wisdom would be to not commit the penalty in the first place and that still seems like the only way it should be coached. Most of the time the defense does not jump offsides with the hard count, anyway.

    If defensive players are taught to just keep going at the QB to avoid the big play then I tend to believe there would be many more flags than there are now because would be both counter-intuitive and counter-productive. It would favor the defense and result in even more annoying game delays.

    KC's defense seemed a little more trigger-happy than an average defense and Rodgers, et. al., exploited that expertly. Even when the hard count did not draw them offsides it must have slowed down their rush significantly. Based upon the talking heads of pregame you would have expected that the sack numbers for each team would have been just the opposite of what they turned out to be.
     
  21. Curly Calhoun

    Curly Calhoun Cheesehead

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    Bingo.

    Rodgers usually is more aware of what the rules are than the refs are anyway. Against Kansas City he had to go and tell them KC had twelve men on the field.
     
  22. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    The Packers have had eight of these plays during this season so far. I don´t think that Rodgers gets a special treatment by the referees, he´s just better at getting defensive players to jump offsides than other QBs. Nevertheless the Packers opponents have had four such plays this season so far as well.

    This season Rodgers is 5-of-7 for 164 yards and 2 TDs on those plays. In addition one of the passes resulted in a 52-yard pass interference penalty on Richard Sherman.
     
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  23. sschind

    sschind Cheesehead

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    So I am sitting in the stands watching my nephews high school football game tonight and we had the ball on offense. All of a sudden one of our players parents starts yelling "twelve men on defense, twelve men on defense" then others joined in with "count the defense" and such. We run the play and no flag is thrown. We were ahead so we were in no hurry to get the next play off and still there are 12 men on defense. By now about 30 fans are yelling variations of the "twelve men on defense" yell. All of a sudden one of their defenders runs off the field...and another runs on to take his place. Still 12 men on the field. We run another play and they throw a flag. Everyone is thinking "its about time " but do they call 12 men on the field? No, they call illegal substitution. Apparently is is OK to have 12 men but you can't substitute one 12th man for another 12th man. About 15 seconds after that play one defender runs off and no one replaces him. Then we see the ref counting the players on defense, which now is finally at the requisite 11 players. He counts the 11 and I swear he look towards the stands and gives a "what the hell are you screaming about 12 men"

    They had 12 men on the field for over a minute and through 2 snaps of the ball and no 12 man calls. I just thought it was extra funny due to the Packers opponents 12 man problems these last couple of weeks. Only in this case no one was running to get of the field.
     
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  24. PFanCan

    PFanCan That's MISTER Cheesehead, to you.

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    He's so good, I've fallen off my couch during those hard counts!
     
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  25. 828Packer

    828Packer Cheesehead

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    This is a very complex issue, not one that can be understood behind a mic. You have to look at the opposing defense and understand that when Rodgers is beating you to death on offense, it places defenders on edge and those defenders are always looking to get a jump, to anticipate the snap so that maybe, just maybe, they can get to Rodgers. AR knows that. Mike McCarthy knows that. Linsley knows that. They know that when you have a guy so eager to fire off and get to the best QB in the league, that usually a hard count will send him across the line. AR does it game in and game out.

    So to answer your question yes GB gets more free plays than any team in the league, however there isn't another team that is more conditioned to having a DL on edge. A DL jumping offside to the other 31 teams in the league usually results in finger pointing. Not to a very disciplined GB offense. To GB, it's just another play in playbook.
     
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