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A provocative post by oletimer...

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by Bruce, May 23, 2006.

  1. Bruce

    Bruce Cheesehead

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    A fine poster named oletimer posted the following over at PackerChatters. I thought I would share it and my response to generate discussion over here in this forum.

     
  2. Bruce

    Bruce Cheesehead

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    I think you pose a great question oletimer. I have pondered this strange phenomenon for quite sometime. My best guess is if you need heroes you also need antiheros as well – in some dualistic/dichotomous sort of systems view. There are some players that "fans" love-to-love, and some they seem to love-to-hate. In the old days the rival team provided the villains, but in today's culture they are not around frequently enough so folks cannibalize their own team's players to create the necessary foil.

    I think the thing that disturbs me the most is the inordinate amount of power that is given to hack sportswriters who often play very loose (at best) with facts. Often it seems that they express their biases and agendas in an article and a good number of "fans" follow like sheep. Truth and context become irrelevant once the landslide begins.

    Look at how often some call Ferguson on punk or a sissy, yet he is one of the toughest guys on the team. He is the best blocking WR on the team, stands out on special teams and has played through injuries (often to his own detriment) when lesser men would have lingered on the training tables and whirlpools collecting a check.

    Or how they want to blame Carroll for being a raw talented 20 year old that was thrown to the wolves as a rookie – as if it were his fault that Mike McKenzie sold out his team and teammates, or that there was no one on the roster who could beat him out. He made mistakes (lots of them), but what did people expect from a 20 year old playing in a system that can best be described as a clusterfluck without an identity? It did not matter that he progressed significantly last season especially over the last 9 games there are still guys who would like to seem him run out of GB on a rail – even though he is now only 22 years old and loaded with upside potential.

    Walker was not the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree – but he was a loyal Packer who worked hard and was there for his teammates. When Favre's father died he was there for Brett on and off the field. When Ferguson went down with a potential crippling injury he flew back to Jacksonville with Driver on their own day off at their own expense. When questioned about the receiving corps he always changed the pronoun to 'we' despite reporters wanting him to talk about 'me' to stir up controversy. He made a huge mistake getting involved with Rosenhog, but the way the fans turned on him the second Favre threw his two cents into the mix was unbelievable. It was as if he had gone from a favorite cousin or uncle to child-molester overnight. I still read "fans" wishing him career ending injuries and worse when they are not hurling vulgar references to this young man who dared ask for a raise.

    Mike Sherman is still spoken about by some as if he were the anti-Christ, despite the fact that for whatever shortcomings he may have had he bled green and gold. The guy was a workaholic who did the best he could while inheriting a bad situation -- CAP hell and a team in decline turned into 5 straight winning seasons, 4 playoff seasons, and three straight division titles under him. Yet to hear him spoken about one might think he was tanking games because of a gambling addiction. He didn't hire himself as GM, yet it is treated as if he planned and executed a Coup d'tat against a popularly elected leadership.

    While I appreciate your thoughtful and provocative post, I can imagine there will be some who will scream in protest over my on the above being thrown out for consideration. I guess Cannibalism isn't restricted to just the players for some fans
     
  3. Bruce

    Bruce Cheesehead

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    Come on -- there has to be at least one thoughtful taker out there...
     
  4. calicheesehead

    calicheesehead Cheesehead

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    Well I think a 4-12 team will do that to a fan, especially ones who did not get to enjoy the Infante/Gregg era of the Pack. We've seen the ups and downs and cycles of a team and new fans have been spoiled by the success of the Pack the last decade +. I'd bet the recent fans of the sixties and early seventies had some player bashing to do after the Lombardi era ended and the Decline began. I for one am glad to see Ahman back and resigned, as well as Ferguson, and our other starting players. I feel bad that we coulodn't keep Walker as his talents were definitely needed and quite possibly irreplaceable. It does make it tough on a fan though when the exiting of a player ends with negative words about the franchise one roots for.
     
  5. tromadz

    tromadz Cheesehead

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    I personally am one of the few that root for Fergy. I had a feeling after that clothesline(he couldn't see correctly for like a week after the hit. He was messed up pretty bad), that he wouldn't be the same again, and last year it looked as if that was the case. It is not his fault, or GBs fault, but if Fergy can't play up to standards, he will have to be dealt with however GB sees fit.



    I won't get into Carroll again. 1st round pick, third year(breakout year), he's the nickelback at best. Nice. :roll: I still hope he comes around, because that means GB will do good things, but...doesn't look like it. But he progressed! he went from "Horrible" to "Bad." Get your #28 jerseys now. There is a reason his nicknames are 'Highway 28' and 'Grabby Smurf' and it is not because he drives fast or is blue. But I'm just irrationally hating on him, right?



    Yeah, he's a very loyal packer(er, Bronco). Here is what Mr. Loyalty said: "If I had to go back there, I'd retire." Oh, the loyalty.



    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. His intent was there. He didn't go out to LOSE games. He just failed at winning (in the playoffs, where championships are won). A lot of people think he wasted the end of Favres career with winnining nothing but Division titles(as if that was hard in those days). There are also rumors(I have more than rumors, but like you Bruce, I can't reveal it) that he didn't listen to his coaches and assistants, and that is one of the reasno our current OC left those years ago in the first place. He couldn't get it done in the postseason, and he is gone now. Time to move on.


    Ok. I guess disagreeing means I'm a cannibal. Seems a tad ignorant...but...whatever works for you.

    ps- I really wish it was anybody else but you bruce who made this post, cuz it looks like my frustration with that phantom stat is carrying over here, but its not the case. Good post, except the cannibal part.
     
  6. DePack

    DePack Cheesehead

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    Bruce, great post....by both oletimer and you.


    Please explain the "roll eyes" that oletimer used after the statement "support our troops". This is offensive to me and alot of others unless I'm missing something.
     
  7. CaliforniaCheez

    CaliforniaCheez Cheesehead

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    This stuff is upsetting.

    1. Where is the evidence that Davenport is an "exceptional" RB? When he has his first complete season we might discuss it.
    Gado has started more games than Davenport.
    Gado has 143 rushing attempts in 8 game activation period. Davenport has 217 in 39 games over a 4 season period. Gado in half a season had 162 more yards than Davenports 15 game best season(03).

    2. When was Green's last 100 yard rushing game? 11/14/04 (over 18 months ago)

    3. Ferguson has 1546 yards in 5 years (315/year).
    4. Walker only had one good year and 2444 yards in 4 years (611/year).

    5. Bill Schroeder in 5 years with the Packers had 3435 yards and 20 TD's.
    one of those years Schroeder only got 2 catches for 15 yards!! So 3420 and 20 TD's in 4 years. A far cheaper option than Walker or Ferguson.

    6. Gado's % of 100 yard games to games started(3 of 5 starts) is a similar use of short term stats as used with Walker yet you say Gado is unproven. Not a consistant position.

    7. Donald Lee had 33 receptions for 294 yards and 2 TD's in 05 while Ferguson had only 27 receptions for 366 yards and 3 TD's.
    Lee's cap # was $380K while Ferguson's cap # was $2245K or six times Lee's for similar production.

    Fan loyalty while welcome is a personal emotion.

    Facts are on display for all.

    Opinion
    Green must prove he still has the ability. Not disloyalty, but he was not faring well before this very serious injury.

    Davenport has not proven to have the constitution to survive an NFL season let alone have success at it.

    Gado for having only minimal time in sytem proved a good RB. With a full training camp more will be expected of him than Green.

    Ferguson is far overpaid. Too much to be traded and will be cut eventually.

    Lee and Gado are good players.
    Are you judging a player by the size of his paycheck??
    Production per dollar is a better stat.
     
  8. Zero2Cool

    Zero2Cool I own a website

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    Little more info on Gado's numbers.
     
  9. porky88

    porky88 Cheesehead

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    Yeah I'm not a big Ferguson fan. He's got talent but has underachieved and hasn't lived up to what he's getting paid to be.

    With that said Billy didn't have near the potential Walker and Fergy have. Walker did have one good year and while he'll be missed he had to go because of cancerous threats and we had 0 chance of resigning him in the off season. We made the best of what we could get for a injured WR and I’m really liking “Baby Driverâ€
     
  10. WinnipegPackFan

    WinnipegPackFan Cheesehead

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    Interesting Post Bruce,

    I had a feeling when I read it that the specific examples givin might end up being the unfortunate subjects of debate for this thread rather than the overall message that I think was intended, ( if I am reading this the right way).

    Human nature is a funny thing and this topic itself could make an interesting thesis for some student. You mention sportswriters in your post as one example and the lryics from a song titled "Dirty Laundry" comes to mind "kick them when they are up and kick them when they are down" . The media is pretty easy to understand as they give us the negatives we generally ( as a society ) seem to want to hear about which is a poor reflection on us in general.

    I have also pondered this strange phenomenon from time to time and believe it goes a lot deeper then sports. I have no answer but someone once said "In times of peace men think of war and in times of war men think of peace"

    The quote might be slightly off but I think he was on to something here.

    Post Note : Nice Quote calicheesehead and yes, the new fans have been spoiled, but they just don't know it yet !!
     
  11. mattresell

    mattresell Cheesehead

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    I like that people are noticing and putting forthe in these forums how much control the media has over the public. But I also thinks it's worthy to note the power these forums and the public in general have over itself.

    My opinion has always been that certain players or ideas get bad/good raps solely based ont he opinions of a few people that participate heavily in forum conversation. The fact is that many people that visit this particular site do so not just to discuss Packer football, but also to learn about it.

    I do more reading on the site than posting so I see how someone looking for information rather than expressing their opinion could be easily swayed by the overall tone of the forum about a certain player or topic. My guess it that the average person that visits this forum would have a negative view of both Ahmad Caroll and Bobby Ferguson. Whether they should have that view or not is irrelevent. The fact that they presumably are just taking our word for it rather than doing their own research is the issue.

    Things like this go on all the time. I was able to attend 2 Astros/Giants games last week while Barry was trying to hit 714. The crowd was viscous towards Barry but the feeling that I got was that most people couldn't give two shits about steroids or Babe Ruth's homerun total. They were simply joining in with the rest of the crowd for the "fun" of it, which seems to mw like a poor excuse for commradorie.

    I guess in closing this topic goes a bit deeper than something that needs to be discussed on Packer Forum, but it is noce to see others openly talk about how aware they are of the media and social influences we are all subjuect too.
     
  12. Zero2Cool

    Zero2Cool I own a website

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    ^^ I've been whining about the media for awhile now. Glad some of you have joined the whineTrain :p
     
  13. Bruce

    Bruce Cheesehead

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    I doubt seriously that the roll eyes means anything negative about truely "supporting our troops" rather the lip service that some give to it while doing the opposite.
     
  14. ChrisC

    ChrisC Cheesehead

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    Yes, very interesting quotes and contributions. I think there is an element of herd mentality here - but then I am prone to it myself, as with regard to J Walker for example :oops:

    I think we tend to set very high standards for our heroes, and I agree that we seem to need anti-heroes too. The point about Fergy's injury is well made, and we tend to forget such things very quickly. Does this make him a villain? I don't think so - but yes, he is coming up to an important year.

    What seems clear is that the "default setting" for most (all?) of us is to criticise and think the worst - and that is fed by our negative and destructive media (here in the UK for sure!) It's a real effort to think the best of people - I for one fall too easily into cynicism and negativity.

    A good news story like the one about Sam Gado working in a hospital is quite rare - but notice that he already felt that he had to "aim off" and counter the impression that his motives in doing it might be mixed.

    We certainly have to be media-aware in our society today - and none more so than the sports-people, who necessarily find themselves thrust into the media spotlight. Maybe we should cut them some slack from time to time.

    Chris
     
  15. 4packgirl

    4packgirl Cheesehead

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    the general sentiments in the post i'd absolutely have to agree with. call it blind faith if you must & perhaps, in my case, it's true. i don't know if it's because i've been a fan during the MANY lows & some of the GREATEST highs but it's hard for me to see the player bashing/questioning/whatever you want to call it. i take what is said on this site with a grain of salt & make my own decisions on any given player based on my gut feelings as well as what i've personally seen on the field.
     
  16. digsthepack

    digsthepack Cheesehead

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    I can agree that if the stars line up just right, and everyone returns to pre-injury form...or something close.....the Pack should be in good shape.

    BUT.....the first thing a player has to be to help the team, whether Brett Favre or the lowest rookie, is available to play on Sunday. You simply cannot discount some players' injury histories...or lack of willingness to play through the pain of lesser injuries.
     
  17. GakkofNorway

    GakkofNorway Cheesehead

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    I wouldn't put Michael Jordan on my basketballteam now just because he has been great in the past.
     
  18. DePack

    DePack Cheesehead

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    Ahhh....thanks.
     
  19. Bruce

    Bruce Cheesehead

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    Exactly!

    It too worried that people might miss the point and take it to the specifics of certain players. It is kind of funny, because as a fan I support and hope for the best for all Packer players, yet hope someone better comes along and beats them out each season. I hope this NOT because I don't support the players, rather because it will mean the team is improving. Yet when I try to talk objectively about a player that is seen, by those that seem to miss the point, as blind loyalty -- kink of ironic. If a player cannot overcome injury or is less talented than I hoped, I feel no need to blame them, personally attack them or hope the worst for them. Rather it is my style to thank them for their efforts and contributions and move on -- some others seem to need scapegoats or worse make them villians. Even Walker, who in the end I feel melted down, I am glad he is gone, but will miss his talent. Yet, I feel grateful for the contributions he made and hope he goes on to have a successful career (esp. since he went to the AFC 8) ) Mike McKenzie on the other hand committed the ultimate sin -- betraying your teammates by giving less than minimal effort to meet a selfish agenda. I had no problem with his wanting a new contract or with his unhappiness with management. But as a teammate you can never do what he did on game days and be respected.

    Back on track, I love the quote you shared and think it is appropriately applied. Thanks for the thoughtful response.

    You make some very good points here.

    I don't have time to respond to everyone but thanks for sharing your ideas and responses 4packgirl, ChrisC, digs, DePack...
     
  20. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    I know alot of people rip on Ferguson...........but i think the reason last year was so bad was he was NOT over that cheap shot clothesline he got the season before. I am hoping he gets a real chance this year. He always showed alot of guts BEFORE that cheapshot, to go across the middle.
    Just my opinion.
     
  21. mattresell

    mattresell Cheesehead

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    With Ferguson specifically, I think the biggest problem is that fans expect too much from him. To me that is the organization's fault as much as it's the fans or Ferguson's fault. After watching him at A&M I never felt he was good enough to be anything more than just a 3rd WR possesion type guy. But based on the fact that the team drafted him in round 2 and then gave him a pricey contract extension, we've come to expect him to be better than that.

    Had he been a 4th round selection, which is probably what he should have been had the Packers not been enamored with his "tools", most of us would probably be okay with what he's given the team to this point.
     
  22. CaliforniaCheez

    CaliforniaCheez Cheesehead

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    My point in using the stats was to say that while loyalty to the players is one thing, looking for better players is another and there has to be a balance.

    We all have our favorites and those we will not mind seeing move on.
    I come to the defense here of Whitticker(he was just a rookie last year) and Roman when I think they have been unfairly treated.

    I think if you are seeking a balance between improving current players, getting better players, and supporting those Packer players who need it.
    I think a good example is Larry McCarren. Perhaps a bit on the analytical side of the scale he is a realist who enjoys football and the Packers.

    Some people post only the negative, some only post support of current starters. There is a mix of perspectives but keep your mind open.

    This time of year the Packers are looking for the best 53 players to help the Packers win the most games in the near future.

    Example: Last year that included Chris White an undrafted rookie in the 53. Does it this year?

    Let us be realistic, use stats and observations to support opinions.
    Do not have an ESPN mentality.
     
  23. porky88

    porky88 Cheesehead

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    Part of football is getting injured. Ferguson suffered a career threatening injury and while it might be tough to get back in the flow a things you cannot let that affect your play on the field. Fergy dropped a lot of passes last year and didn't play very well at all. The injury can be used as an excuse, but as a professional Ferguson needs to move on and use it a motivation to have a break out year. This is definitely a realistic chance for him to do it this year. He had a shot last year and disappointed. This year he has to work to win the #2 and when or if he gets it, he'll be relied onto step up. Unlike last year Ferguson has players behind him that will be breathing down his back for the #2 spot this year. That might be the push he needs to break out. This is his 5th season now. It's time to step up.
     
  24. vixtalkn

    vixtalkn Cheesehead

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    IMO perhaps we are left to eat our own b/c we have run all the trolls off the Packer boards. If we could get a good smack thread going with a Queen fan, for example, Packerbackers would eternally defend any of our players.
     
  25. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    That may be true with some people.......not with me though. If i feel a player should be questioned, i question. If not, i defend. Of course they are JUST my opinions anyway.
    As far as trolls........all they do is cause trouble. RESPECTFUL fans of other teams that come here (and we do have a few) get into shoving matches with us, but they are in FUN, and not nasty. That keeps this site enjoyable.
     

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