A.J. Dillon tests positive for COVID-19 [OP from 11/2020]

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Voyageur

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I can buy that they are less likely. What I said is that I'm not sure that the data are reliable enough on that front to know by how much.

But that's really irrelevant. We can accept the 73% number if you want. The reality is that vaccinated people still catch it and pass it. Meaning that while the transmission rates are probably lower/slower, getting covid is still going to be an inevitability. People who think it's going to be eradicated are kidding themselves. Even the CDC has admitted that it's going to become an endemic virus. So getting the virus is a sunk cost. It's like when parts of the country were locked down even when the hospitals were no longer overwhelmed-- all it did was create a delay. Eventually everyone will get it.

What we should care about now is mitigation-- not how many people get it, but how sick are they? How many people die? What can be done to lessen severity? What can be done to treat them once it is severe... you know... medicine. And that's the real value of the vaccine. It protects the vast majority of vaccinated people from severe illness and death. People who get the vaccine but then won't associate with healthy unvaccinated people make no sense to me. You're protected. You're going to get exposed to the virus eventually no matter what you do.

And by the way, this is not the first post in which you've posted statements about covid in this thread, but it is the first time you've linked to something to back up your statements. So it's pretty remarkably hypocritical to scold people for making statements without citation. It's no different than @AKCheese starting this whole long discussion because he wanted to scold me for giving my opinion, when he's as vocal with his opinion as anyone.
Actually I have linked to information in this thread. Sometimes it's in the body of the statement. Here's a tidbit that could interest you. Red counties have a much higher death rate than blue counties. If you correlate back to the lower vaccination rates, you'll see it supports the statements from other sources.

We're all vocal on our opinions, but in some cases, opinions don't matter. All that matters is cold, hard, facts. This is one of those situations, because lives are at stake.
 

AKCheese

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A member of the Branch Covidians first claims that no one is having their freedoms restricted, and when it's pointed out that Australians are being forced into ******************s if they test positive, they mock their plight.

Again-- cult.
Actually my point would be that if you have to go to Australia (if what you cite is true ) to find people actually losing their “freedom” I as an American am not that concerned. FREE AUSTRALIA!!!!
 

AKCheese

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I won't try to make you regret it. Generally, I think your perspective it pretty reasonable.

I'll just respond to say that the mutation process of covid will not stop, just as it hasn't for influenza, and they are already talking about engineering vaccines to match variants as they do with the flu.

Do you know of a single reputable source that claims that we could eradicate the flu if we all got the flu shot?
I don’t know of a single reputable source who says we can eradicate Covid if we all (?) got vaccinated.
 

Voyageur

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If they get Covid in check, it's very possible they'll combine a flu/covid cocktail that can be given every year, not unlike today's flu vaccine. That would keep it in check.
 

Poppa San

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How do you know that this is the factual chain of events? The only way I can think of is that you believe what the experts have said about spread and contact tracing. Yet, apparently you do not believe what the experts say about vaccines and spreading.
I last worked on a Wednesday. Nobody I work with called in. This young man, my wife and 2 sons were the only people in my personal space from Thurs - Tues. Doctor figures my symptom onset to be Tues. My wife tests daily for work. My son got sick after me. Highly unlikely I didn't catch it from the youth.
 

Dantés

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Actually my point would be that if you have to go to Australia (if what you cite is true ) to find people actually losing their “freedom” I as an American am not that concerned. FREE AUSTRALIA!!!!

That’s merely the most extreme example. The attempt to force private businesses to fire unvaxxed employees is another great one close to home.

And Americans absolutely should care about this sort of dictatorial stuff going on in other western democracies. They should take note of how this happened.
 

Dantés

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Actually I have linked to information in this thread. Sometimes it's in the body of the statement. Here's a tidbit that could interest you. Red counties have a much higher death rate than blue counties. If you correlate back to the lower vaccination rates, you'll see it supports the statements from other sources.

We're all vocal on our opinions, but in some cases, opinions don't matter. All that matters is cold, hard, facts. This is one of those situations, because lives are at stake.

The irony of this statement is that this whole discussion started because @AKCheese didn’t like the “cold hard facts” I posted.

Which gives the lie to what you’re saying. It’s not just about facts. It’s about how they’re interpreted and how they fit into one’s hierarchy of values and appetite for risk.
 

Voyageur

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About an hour ago, I got a message from a friend up in Wisconsin. His son-in-law passed away from Covid. He was vaccinated.

Breakthroughs happen. Even those of us who are vaccinated have to be concerned.
 

Dantés

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About an hour ago, I got a message from a friend up in Wisconsin. His son-in-law passed away from Covid. He was vaccinated.

Breakthroughs happen. Even those of us who are vaccinated have to be concerned.

I’m very sorry to hear that.
 

Schultz

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I like this post.

I don't think there are good enough data out there at this point to tell how much vaccination helps with limiting spread. But we do know for certain that significant outbreaks of the disease do happen in highly vaccinated communities.

But if people are going to live their lives normally once again (or ever) they're going to have to encounter the virus. You can't hide from it forever. You could avoid getting it from Uncle Gary at Christmas because you disinvited him and still pick it up 2 weeks later at Kroger's. It's a literal inevitability.

So if you have taken advantage of the protection provided by the vaccine, and the virus' threat to you is now minimal, I cannot for the life of me understand why you wouldn't go back to ****** life and why you would care so much about controlling other people's choices.

So just to put numbers to this, there have been 192K confirmed cases of covid in Montana, and 2740 deaths. That's a case fatality rate of 1.43%. The best estimates are that the actual number of infections are somewhere in the 6-20X multiple of confirmed cases. Let's just be conservative and call it 8X. That would be an infection fatality rate of about 0.18%.

Now even if the vaccine only made you half as likely to die from Covid, you're talking about a vaccinated fatality rate of .009%. You're getting into numbers that are so small they're basically negligible. Go back to living your life. You take bigger risks than that all the time without even thinking about it.

And what's so funny to me is that people will want to respond to this post with an anecdote like "my aunt was fully vaxxed and died from covid." Which is literally no different than someone saying "my brother was totally healthy, got the vaccine and died-- therefore, don't get the vaccine." But the former, they want everyone to take really seriously, and the latter they want to mock (and vice versa by the other side).
The numbers that will continue my taking this seriously is the total number of deaths in the U.S. post covid compared to pre-covid. Sorry but to me there is only one explanation for this. So I decided to trust the CDC and the mainstream experts. The next set of numbers (I believe it is a little too early yet) I am awaiting are the number of deaths post vaccination compared to pre-vaccination. At that time I will re-evaluate my thought process. Until then wearing a mask and getting vaccinated (I mean how many other vaccinations have I already received) seem like small concessions considering my parents thankfully are still alive at 85 & 86 and I would not only like them to have a few more years but I would like to feel comfortable with interacting with them in those years God willing.
 

Dantés

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The numbers that will continue my taking this seriously is the total number of deaths in the U.S. post covid compared to pre-covid. Sorry but to me there is only one explanation for this. So I decided to trust the CDC and the mainstream experts. The next set of numbers (I believe it is a little too early yet) I am awaiting are the number of deaths post vaccination compared to pre-vaccination. At that time I will re-evaluate my thought process. Until then wearing a mask and getting vaccinated (I mean how many other vaccinations have I already received) seem like small concessions considering my parents thankfully are still alive at 85 & 86 and I would not only like them to have a few more years but I would like to feel comfortable with interacting with them in those years God willing.

Your post makes me think that I have maybe not been very clear about what I think.

There's no doubt that the excess deaths since the pandemic started are because of the virus.

I'm not anti-mask and I'm not anti-vax, especially if you're spending significant time in close quarters with people in their 80's.

What I'm against is compulsion-- like forcing people to pick between the vaccine and their livelihoods. And likewise, I'm very much against hysterical covid crusaders who jump down your throat if you say or cite anything that doesn't fit the most pessimistic narrative.

Essentially my view on the whole issue is simply this: get the best information you can, make the best decisions you can, and leave other people alone.
 

AKCheese

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That’s merely the most extreme example. The attempt to force private businesses to fire unvaxxed employees is another great one close to home.

And Americans absolutely should care about this sort of dictatorial stuff going on in other western democracies. They should take note of how this happened.
Nobody has to fire anyone. They can go on furlough, lwop, whatever administrative remedy that particular business might have. My son’s employer (a large government contractor) requires either vaccination or periodic testing. The goal is a safer workplace and unquestionably vaccination makes that workplace safer. Bulletproof? No. (What part of 95% (or whatever) < 100% don’t people understand?). FREE AUSTRALIA!!!
 

Dantés

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Nobody has to fire anyone. They can go on furlough, lwop, whatever administrative remedy that particular business might have. My son’s employer (a large government contractor) requires either vaccination or periodic testing. The goal is a safer workplace and unquestionably vaccination makes that workplace safer. Bulletproof? No. (What part of 95% (or whatever) < 100% don’t people understand?). FREE AUSTRALIA!!!

Anyone with an ounce of objectivity should be able to see that the proposed federal mandate for employers with 100+ employees leaves people with only two real choices: the jab or your job. The alternatives are not remotely realistic.

Again, you’re deluded. Because you’re in a cult.
 

AKCheese

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Anyone with an ounce of objectivity should be able to see that the proposed federal mandate for employers with 100+ employees leaves people with only two real choices: the jab or your job. The alternatives are not remotely realistic.

How about the option to get a job which does not require the vaccine (I hear a lot of people are hiring). People do not have the right to put others at risk by refusing to follow common sense/medical science supported safety rules. Personally I’m amazed OSHA didn’t get involved far earlier. Isnt there a provision for testing rather than the vaccine? Sorry I really haven’t followed that closely because the solution is so obvious it’s silly
 

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captainWIMM

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"No one's freedoms are being tromped on" he says, as Australian citizens are literally being forced into ******************s and people are losing their jobs because they don't trust the vaccines. What a clown you are.

Do you know what they call societies where everyone is treated as though they are in the military?

By the way, I do mask where it's required. I've complied with everything the state has asked of me concerning covid. But you're in a state of utter lunacy if you don't think freedoms are being impinged by hysterical overreach.

Putting people in ******************s.

Government trying to unconstitutionally force private businesses to fire unvaccinated people even if said business doesn't care.

Covid cult members: "It's always been this way! What are you crying about??"

A member of the Branch Covidians first claims that no one is having their freedoms restricted, and when it's pointed out that Australians are being forced into ******************s if they test positive, they mock their plight.

Again-- cult.

I'm not interested in joining the discussion about COVID-19 on a football forum but there's no way to ignore a poster comparing actions being taken by a country to contain the spread of the virus to ******************s. Those are most likely the worst posts I have read around here since joining the forum and should definitely result in the poster being banned. Otherwise there's no need to have moderators around here at all.
 

thequick12

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50% is incorrect. The figure who are most opposed to vaccination are around 20%. They're the ones stopping the program from being successful.

Vaccination opposition

Maybe 20% are anti vax altogether but of the people who are fully vaccinated at least 50% only did it to keep their jobs because they werent wealthy enough to quit or to be able to travel internationally or even to be able to see their kids in some instances

Yeah, the poll you cited is talking about people who remain unvaccinated...thats a totally seperate thing from what im talking about which should be clear
 

thequick12

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We didn't eliminate polio. It exists, but because the vast majority are vaccinated, it's ability to pass from one to another has been greatly reduced. You say that vaccination doesn't reduce transmission? The issue with that statement is that it totally avoids the issue of severity of condition if caught. We're talking the death rate, and the hospitalization rate, as well as the death rate from other ailments because hospital space is limited due to high covid numbers needing intensive care.

As for those transmission rates, there is evidence that the spread rate is less with vaccinated people. It should not be ignored. Covid Spread

The sacrifice of livelihoods, freedoms, relationships, and the rest is not "caused" by getting vaccinated. That's absurd. We can only return to a ****** life after we've done what's necessary to insure that all people are as reasonably safe as possible from this disease spread.

How strong do I believe in this? I have a son who is not vaccinated, and quite frankly, we haven't seen him and his family since this started, and won't, until after they are all vaccinated. That's my belief.

Thats sad man go see your son smh...and god forbid it sounds like he has children. Please dont do your grandkids like that, youll certainly regret it in the future...its not his family its your family too

Also funny you bring up polio vaccinations because the CIA ran a fake polio vaccination campaign in Pakistan in an attempt to discover familial DNA to find Bin Ladin...in my opinion leading to further mistrust of vaccinations and medical professionals in that part of the world and surely leading to the deaths of some humanitarians accuseed of being CIA assests right or wrong

Finally if you lost your job because you were unwillinging to get vaccinated for whatever reason maybe your allergic to ingredients maybe you have a pre existing condition. Maybe your religiously or philosophically opposed to vaccinations, jahovas witness/pro lifers. Maybe you just didnt feel like it but you lost your job because you didnt get vaccinated...please explain how that conclusion is absurd? You had a job they required vaccination you didnt get it so you no longer are allowed to work at that job ...pretty simple and clear cut certainly not absurd
 

thequick12

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IMO Covid deaths are preventable. There are vaccines that are both safe and effective. I lost a 62 year old friend this summer who refused to get the vaccination. He caught Covid and was dead in two weeks. Granted, he was older and way overweight. Still, it was preventable.

Even so, if his decision only affected him, then that's his decision. People who catch Covid, whether they know if they have it or not, are likely to spread it to about 5 other people. I don't think they have that right. And some have said to me "Well your friend only infected other unvaccinated people." That's not the point. The point is that many or at least some of them died for no good reason. Well, no good reason I can see.

This debate won't be solved here or anywhere. I'm as glad I'm vaccinated as unvaccinated people who also made a choice. I have enough trouble making decisions for myself much less making them for anyone else. All any of us can do is suggest, and hopefully remain friends even if we have different opinions.

I truly feel bad for everyone who dies not just of covid but of car accidents, cancer, pneumonia, malaria, the flu, alcohol, starvation, poverty, murder...you get the point

All of those things are preventable my point is all except covid have been going on forever comparatively. And some are preventable by people simply being less greedy...yet we have failed to prevent them as a world society why is that?

Obviously multiple reasons but the bottom line is the bottom line...preventing covid has made a lot of people a lot of money. Preventing starvation and poverty would involve the rich giving up money so its not happening anytime soon and thats sad...

Medical care should not be for profit thats inherently a conflict of interest and goes against the hippocratic oath. Not to mention the richest most powerful country in the world is like the only one who doesnt have free health care for its citizens. And the we dont pay that much in taxes argument holds no weight.

Im not wealthy by any means im really barely making it and still I pay 25% federal income tax, 7.65 % social security/medicare tax, 5.3% WI state income tax, 5.6% WI sales tax. Thats 43.5% of my gross wage that I lose before I can even think about spending it. Thats not right!!! Thats absolutely ridiculous and I was taught in school we fought a revolution over taxes hahaha why ? Just so somebody else could take nearly half the money we traded our time for ? If I did that to someone id be guilty of a crime...
 
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tynimiller

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Can we at least move this thread out of the football section admins?
 

gopkrs

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Obviously multiple reasons but the bottom line is the bottom line...preventing covid has made a lot of people a lot of money. Preventing starvation and poverty would involve the rich giving up money so its not happening anytime soon and thats sad...
I like this. Think there is a lot of truth to it. Speaks to pollution also.
 

Dantés

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I'm not interested in joining the discussion about COVID-19 on a football forum but there's no way to ignore a poster comparing actions being taken by a country to contain the spread of the virus to ******************s. Those are most likely the worst posts I have read around here since joining the forum and should definitely result in the poster being banned. Otherwise there's no need to have moderators around here at all.

First of all, thank you for weighing in. I never feel quite so confident in an opinion until you disagree with me. It's a blessed assurance.

Secondly, you may or may not beware, but a ****************** is literally a place where large groups of prisoners of some particular category (in this case, covid positive people) are imprisoned against their will in a concentrated area. Forced labor or extermination may be elements of such a place, but not necessarily. Those realities are associated with the worst and most famous examples of ******************s in history, but don't have to be present in order for a ****************** to exist. Regardless, what's happening in Australia absolutely fits the definition.

And thank you for calling for me to be banned for pointing out a factual reality that you don't like. It actually really underlines the point that I've been making in this thread better than anything that I could have said.

I would like to invite you to cry harder.
 

tynimiller

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I'm not interested in joining the discussion about COVID-19 on a football forum but there's no way to ignore a poster comparing actions being taken by a country to contain the spread of the virus to ******************s. Those are most likely the worst posts I have read around here since joining the forum and should definitely result in the poster being banned. Otherwise there's no need to have moderators around here at all.

Stop. And the moderators have made it quite clear they don't give two ***** about Covid hatred and non-football discussions destroying threads.
 

Voyageur

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When truth falls on deaf ears, there is no sense continuing the discussion.
 

AKCheese

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I truly feel bad for everyone who dies not just of covid but of car accidents, cancer, pneumonia, malaria, the flu, alcohol, starvation, poverty, murder...you get the point

All of those things are preventable my point is all except covid have been going on forever comparatively. And some are preventable by people simply being less greedy...yet we have failed to prevent them as a world society why is that?

Obviously multiple reasons but the bottom line is the bottom line...preventing covid has made a lot of people a lot of money. Preventing starvation and poverty would involve the rich giving up money so its not happening anytime soon and thats sad...

Medical care should not be for profit thats inherently a conflict of interest and goes against the hippocratic oath. Not to mention the richest most powerful country in the world is like the only one who doesnt have free health care for its citizens. And the we dont pay that much in taxes argument holds no weight.

Im not wealthy by any means im really barely making it and still I pay 25% federal income tax, 7.65 % social security/medicare tax, 5.3% WI state income tax, 5.6% WI sales tax. Thats 43.5% of my gross wage that I lose before I can even think about spending it. Thats not right!!! Thats absolutely ridiculous and I was taught in school we fought a revolution over taxes hahaha why ? Just so somebody else could take nearly half the money we traded our time for ? If I did that to someone id be guilty of a crime...
Well let me make you feel better. The 24% marginal tax bracket goes to $85K, the first $12K is tax free, so you’re making around $100K before you pay over 24% on your next dollar. Neanwhile you’ve paid far less than that on amounts as you go up through the brackets. So in order to actually lose 25% of your income to Federal tax you gotta be making I would guess north of $200K. I don’t feel like doing the math this early. You STOP paying SS/Medicare tax at some point ($120-ish?) That SHOULD have you doing better than just scraping along. Taxes are at historic lows. In 2019 I made $486K, I paid $83K in federal taxes taking the standard deduction (ouch!). That’s 17%. Paid no SS/Medicare tax, we have no state tax. I do pay hefty sales tax but I only pay that on the money I pay in state and many items are exrmpted. That might seem like I get off pretty easy (and imo I do) but a lot of people making far far far more than I do pay far far less or nothing at all. Meanwhile a certain political party I used to be an active member of is duping folks into thinking the tax problem is poor people and immigrants, and the solution is lowering taxes on the wealthy. As long as you keep believing that, you’ll keep paying more than your fair share but… whatever
 
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