1. Welcome to Green Bay Packers NFL Football Forum & Community!

    Packer Forum is one of the largest online communities for the Green Bay Packers. You are currently viewing our community forums as a guest user.

    Sign Up or

    Having an account grants you additional privileges, such as creating and participating in discussions. Furthermore, we hide most of the ads once you register as a member!
    Dismiss Notice

9-5 or Bust!

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by Ogsponge, Sep 29, 2015.

  1. Ogsponge

    Ogsponge Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2013
    Messages:
    698
    Ratings:
    +595
    No this is not the record I am hoping for 14 games into the season. This is what I expect the Packers playoff record with Rodgers at qb to be at the conclusion of Super Bowl 50. It would mean that the Pack won the division with a bye and another championship. Hell, I would even take 10-5 but anything less than that it is yet another failure of a season. Don't get me wromg, I am very appreciative of being a Packer fan over the course of the past 23 years but at this level one thing and only one thing matters....

    Super Bowl Championships.

    Rodgers is an absolute technical wizard, he will go down as the most efficient qb in NFL history but this team needs more Championships. No more excuses. Time to get it done. I know it may make me unpopular to some but until Rodgers can get it done when it matters most I can never even remotely consider him the best qb in the league when he is not even the best in Packers history and yes I am talking about Starr not you know who.

    Just curious to everyone else's thoughts? Are you still completely satisfied with division Championships in one of the worst divisions in the NFL or do you expect more?
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. Shawnsta3

    Shawnsta3 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2011
    Messages:
    1,273
    Ratings:
    +562
    Championships are a team effort. Being the best QB of all-time is about playing your position better than anyone else has. Rodgers is already the greatest QB of all-time.

    25th all-time in TD's. 205th all-time in INT's. Controlling the snap and limiting the pass rush with hard counts; coupled with free plays from offsides and 12 men on the field which he seemingly always converts down field on, he's done something never seen before in the NFL; limit his mistakes to where he's nearly flawless in his execution. He's thrown the ball nearly 600 times and for nearly 50 TD's since his last interception at Lambeau Field.

    This season he's got 10 TD's to 0 INT's. Completing nearly 75%(wow!) of his throws with a passer rating of 131.9, higher than his previous record breaking season where he set the record for single season passer rating with a 122.5 mark. That's nearly 10 points higher on a record he already owns. Capable of escaping the pocket and picking up the first down when it's needed he's averaged 4+ ypc and 250+ yards almost every year he's been a starter. I could go on for days about back shoulder fade throws, his incredible pre and post snap reads but I think I've already made my case.

    Also I like the recent Michael Jordan comparisons from his teammates and writers; a way to indirectly call him the G.O.A.T without saying he's the G.O.A.T...right?:whistling:
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. red4tribe

    red4tribe Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2009
    Messages:
    943
    Ratings:
    +435
    I agree with you. For having 23 years of hall of fame play at quarterback, in the age of the quarterback, we should have more than two championships. We blew our best chance since 2010 last year, and realistically, Rodgers' "prime" is probably only going to last another three or four years. If we win only one more under MM and Rodgers, I think I would be content with that. But we need more than two in what will amount to about 30 years of hall of fame play.

    I think our biggest weakness during the Rodgers-MM era has been our play against other top teams. Relative to other top QBs, Rodgers' record against winning teams is pretty abysmal. Obviously it goes deeper than just Rodgers, but it is a problem considering you've got to beat at least three teams with winning records in the playoffs....

    For example, Rodgers' career record against teams with winning records is 21 and 23. Some of those wins have come against unimpressive 9-7 squads, too. If you take out 2008, his record improves to 18-16 against winning teams, better, but far from good.

    Now compare that to other top quarterbacks. Peyton Manning is 26-14 against teams with winning records since 2008, Wilson 14-6, Brady 20-15. It just seems to me that we can't get it done against good teams when it counts. At least, we haven't since 2010. Rodgers' playoff record (6-5) is better than Manning's, (11-13) but still pales in comparison to Brady (21-8 although given career length it isn't the most fair comparison), Wilson (6-2), Eli Manning (8-3), Big Ben (10-5), and Joe Flacco (10-5).
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. Poppa San

    Poppa San SB I trophy First of four Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2010
    Messages:
    5,831
    Ratings:
    +1,626
    All the QB's listed with + records helm teams with above average to outstanding defenses.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2012
    Messages:
    12,630
    Ratings:
    +6,598
    While I agree that not winning another Super Bowl with Rodgers as the team´s quarterback would be a disappointment he shouldn´t be blamed for his average playoff record as of now. Currently he´s the active leader in playoff passer rating and his TD-INT ratio of 3.29 is way better than of all the guys you mentioned (Flacco 2.50, Eli Manning 2.13, Brady 2.04, Wilson 2.00, Peyton Manning 1.58 and Roethlisberger 1.10).

    Not sure where you´ve got the numbers against winning teams from but the Packers rank fourth in the league with winning records with a win percentage of .468 since 2008.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. red4tribe

    red4tribe Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2009
    Messages:
    943
    Ratings:
    +435
    Our numbers per wins against winning teams probably differ as I did not factor in any games started by Flynn, Wallace, or Tolzien.

    I completely agree that Rodgers shouldn't receive all of the blame for the average playoff record, however, examining those losses with any degree of objectivity shows, to me at least, that he shoulders some blame. No, you cannot blame him for the loss at San Francisco in 2012 where the defense gave up 181 yards rushing to Kaepernick, or the loss at home to the Giants in 2011 when the entire team collapsed. And no, you shouldn't lose a playoff game when you put up 45 points at Arizona either. However. in three of his five playoff losses, Rodgers has had the ball at the end of the fourth quarter (or overtime in the Arizona game), and failed to put the Packers ahead. He turned it over against Arizona, and then settled for field goals against SF in 2013 and Seattle in 2014. In the latter two games, SF and Seattle capitalized on the failure to put up a touchdown. Rodgers is statistically one of the most efficient quarterbacks in postseason history, as he is during the regular season, but unfortunately his postseason the statistics do not match the reality of what has transpired.

    As I've said, by no means does Rodgers deserve all of or even most of the blame. There were various factors outside his control in each game, and we've had some bad luck as well (e.g. losing the coin toss at Seattle). Rodgers is one of the greatest quarterbacks of all time, and I think he can become the greatest with another championship or two. There is no other quarterback I'd rather have than him. That being said, I cannot completely absolve him when considering the Packers' mediocre playoff record the past seven seasons.
     
  7. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2012
    Messages:
    12,630
    Ratings:
    +6,598
    That doesn't make a huge difference is those guys have gone a combined 1-2 vs. teams with a winning record.

    It's true he missed a wide open Greg Jennings on the first play of overtime against the Cardinals which would have resulted in an 80-yard score for the win. I don't blame him for the fumble.

    In 2013 the playoff game was only the second one after coming back from his fractured collarbone, so I have a tough time criticizing him for not playing his best game.

    Last year at Seattle he was injured again but was able to drive the offense 48 yards in a minute to kick the tying FG.

    Overall he had some games in the playoffs not up to the ridiculous standard he has set for himself during the regular season but he has still been highly efficient in the postseason.
     
  8. DaveRoller

    DaveRoller Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    177
    Ratings:
    +117
    With the caveat "barring major injuries," I pretty much agree.

    I believe Aaron Rodgers has been the best player in the NFL the past 6 years (including this one) and even accounting for injuries curtailing his playoff performances the last 2 years, I find it hard to believe he has only been to 1 Super Bowl.

    Having dinner with a Pats fan from Boston tonight. He tells me that in "Beantown" the attitude is Super Bowl or bust, I don't see why the same attitude should not prevail in "Titletown."
     
  9. red4tribe

    red4tribe Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2009
    Messages:
    943
    Ratings:
    +435
    I double checked my numbers and they aren't wrong, nor is there a discrepancy between my numbers and yours, 22-25 (1-2 without Rodgers) against teams with winning records comes out to a .468 winning percentage.

    I don't disagree that he has played very well in the postseason overall, but I'm not as willing to look past a few failures of his in key situations. Excuses about injuries, why he fumbled, and so on can be made but at some point in time the excuses pile up and you've just got to produce. I stand by my point that he has had the opportunity to put the Packers ahead (and more than likely win the game) in three playoff losses, and each time he came up short. He did not adequately produce in three critical situations and it ended up making all the difference.
     
  10. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2012
    Messages:
    12,630
    Ratings:
    +6,598
    I was actually wondering about the stats you mentioned for the other QBs as it seems the Packers are one of the most successful defeating teams with a winning record.
     
  11. PackerDNA

    PackerDNA Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2014
    Messages:
    2,165
    Ratings:
    +937
    With any luck, Rodgers will have more than a few shots at improving his playoff W-L in the future.
    It's early, but this year would seem to be shaping up as an excellent shot at a title for the Packers. They look strong while battling injuries, while with the exception of the Cards and Pats, there is not yet a team that is separating itself.
     
  12. red4tribe

    red4tribe Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2009
    Messages:
    943
    Ratings:
    +435
    I mentioned Peyton Manning, who would have split his time between two teams since 2008, Russell Wilson, who was not in the league until 2012 (and the Seahawks weren't very good from 2008-2011) and then Brady, and I'm sure the Patriots were one of the teams with a better record against winning teams than the Packers.
     
  13. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2012
    Messages:
    12,630
    Ratings:
    +6,598
    Yeah, the Patriots rank first in the league with a .578 winning percentage.
     
  14. Beagle

    Beagle Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2015
    Messages:
    140
    Ratings:
    +76
    Surely Montana was the best QB in NFL history, closely followed by Aikmen, Staubach, Danny White, Jason Garret. I'll conceed Rodgers a place behind Steve Pelleur
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  15. Sky King

    Sky King Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2012
    Messages:
    1,523
    Ratings:
    +956
    You left Ryan Leaf off your list.
     
  16. Sky King

    Sky King Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2012
    Messages:
    1,523
    Ratings:
    +956
    And you also failed to mention John Kitna.
     
  17. Beagle

    Beagle Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2015
    Messages:
    140
    Ratings:
    +76
    I'm a guest here, I didn't want to make you feel inadequate (Testerverde too)

    :D
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  18. easyk83

    easyk83 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2013
    Messages:
    1,523
    Ratings:
    +636
    I think Rodgers deserves more blame for Post Season struggles than most fans have been willing to give him. From about 2011-2013 Rodgers was too committed to the deep ball which resulted in incompletions sacks and the offense failing to sustain drives at crucial moments against quality opponents. That and his maddening habit of checking out of run plays even when the run game was working and the passing game was struggling, see Buffalo last year. I think right now Rodgers might be playing the best ball of his career. He's taking what the defense gives him, he's not shutting out the run game and he's not holding the ball forever in the pocket. He escapes and extends when he can but otherwise he's hitting his open reads. I don't think Aaron has ever been more responsive to the flow and needs of the game than he has been this season.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  19. PackerDNA

    PackerDNA Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2014
    Messages:
    2,165
    Ratings:
    +937
    It's about balance, especially in the playoffs. If you're one dimensional, you are dead in the water.
    I agree with what easyk83 said in the above post about Rodgers; he's playing his best and smartest right now, and with Lacy and Starks, has the balance he needs to do so effectively.
     
  20. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2012
    Messages:
    12,630
    Ratings:
    +6,598
    I think a lot of Packers are so used to Rodgers playing on a HOF level most of the time that they are disappointed by him having good games vs. really tough defenses in the playoffs.

    I agree that it was a terrible decision to abandon the run vs. Buffalo last season but think that was the coaching staff's decision.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  21. PackerDNA

    PackerDNA Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2014
    Messages:
    2,165
    Ratings:
    +937
    To reiterate points made earlier in the thread.
    I also believe Rodgers could have played better in his playoff losses, but consider;
    Cardinals-any time you put up 45 points in a playoff game, you should win.
    Giants- the 15-1 team that was basically all about Rodgers and the passing game. Rodgers had little if any help in that debacle.
    The 1st 49er game. Again, no chance with the way the defense was getting torched. Tough to keep up against as good a defense as that 49ers team had.
     
  22. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2012
    Messages:
    12,630
    Ratings:
    +6,598
    Another thing to consider when talking about the Packers playoff losses over the last three seasons is that the Packers faced the 2nd (Niners 2012), 3rd (Niners 2013) and best (Seahawks 2014) scoring defenses in these games.

    The team averaged 24.3 points in those games, pretty good considering the opponents gave up a combined 16.6 points per game in the regular season.
     
  23. TJV

    TJV Lifelong Packers Fanatic

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2011
    Messages:
    5,389
    Ratings:
    +4,176
    Could you tell us how you know when Rodgers checks out of running plays to passing plays?
     
  24. easyk83

    easyk83 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2013
    Messages:
    1,523
    Ratings:
    +636
    I don't expect Aaron to be perfect all of the time but I do expect him to play in atleast a prudent fashion. Superbowls are won not through the occasional highlight reel big play but through consistent execution and excellence. What used to irritate me with Rodgers was the observable and supportable belief that he would look off open receivers, sometimes in the first down range to hunt for the big play down the field. A tendency that led Aaron to lead the NFL in sacks during the 2012 season. I also felt he was holding the ball too much in the first half of the 2013 playoff loss against San Fran. I can't fault him for Seattle in 14, however.
     
  25. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2012
    Messages:
    12,630
    Ratings:
    +6,598
    I would like to get some examples of Rodgers purposely looking off wide open receivers to go for a big play. The reason Rodgers was the most sacked QB in 2012 was him trying to extent plays which is really a big part of the Packers offense. He improved avoiding sacks by either throwing it away or run on his own over the last few years though.
     

Share This Page