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# 5

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by Robert Mason, Aug 15, 2015.

  1. Robert Mason

    Robert Mason Cheesehead

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    I see the Packers issued jersey #5 to Ed Williams. Although rarely issued I always thought it should be retired.
     
  2. yooperpackfan

    yooperpackfan Cheesehead

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    Not to worry, he won't be wearing it long.
    The Packers have had so many great players who's numbers could concievably be retired presents a problem in that they would run out of numbers.
     
  3. Mondio

    Mondio Cheesehead

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    Put their name in the ring of honor and put the number on the back of a player. Problem solved.
     
  4. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    Only four players have worn #5 in a regular season after Hornung retired and none since 1988. As a HOFer he's part of the "Ring of Honor" at Lambeau Field and I guess most Packers fans are fine with that.
     
  5. Half Empty

    Half Empty Cheesehead

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    Same with #4?
     
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  6. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    Not nearly as bad as when they issued 14 on accident
     
  7. Robert Mason

    Robert Mason Cheesehead

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    The Bears have fourteen numbers retired and the 49'ers have eleven.
     
  8. Robert Mason

    Robert Mason Cheesehead

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    I believe Majkowski wore number 5 at first, but gave it up in respect.
     
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  9. Robert Mason

    Robert Mason Cheesehead

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    It makes more sense retiring #5 than retiring # 92.
     
  10. Robert Mason

    Robert Mason Cheesehead

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    That's very true, but the Golden Boy should not be neglected.......Honor him while he is still alive !!
     
  11. yooperpackfan

    yooperpackfan Cheesehead

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    I'm all for honoring Paul Hornung, and I agree that retiring #5 WOULD have been more appropriate than retiring #92.
     
  12. vince

    vince Cheesehead

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    What about 31? I wasn't around to see them live but he was better than 5 wasn't he?
     
  13. Pokerbrat2000

    Pokerbrat2000 Opinions are like A-holes, we all have one.

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    Will anyone other then A-Rod ever wear #12 in Green and Gold again?
     
  14. vince

    vince Cheesehead

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    If he plays another 8 years like he says? No.

    Not to belabor the obvious, but I was once again amazed watching him move and throw. Such great command, vision, feet, mobility, and that arm. The way he shoots lasers downfield on the money while on the run - going left or right - is the best I've ever seen.

    He just needs to keep doing what he does, and his legacy will write itself.
     
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  15. TJV

    TJV Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    Taylor was a better RB than Hornung. Jim Brown was the best RB I ever saw and here’s a quote from Lombardi about their contrasting styles:
    http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.aspx?PLAYER_ID=211#sthash.FuwBPBSz.dpuf

    Ray Nitschke was my favorite Lombardi era Packer, but I loved the way Taylor ran the ball. Taylor was much more likely to run right at, and through defenders in the open field, than try to elude them.

    Hornung, while not as good running with the ball was one of the most versatile players in Packers history – and in college. At Notre Dame in 1956 he led his team in passing, rushing, scoring, kickoff and punt returns, and punting. On defense he led the team in passes broken up and was second in interceptions and tackles made. He also place-kicked. He won the Heisman trophy his senior year as the QB of a 2-8 team. I believe he’s the only player to win it after playing on a losing, let alone crappy team. Of course all that didn’t translate to the NFL but he was a HB who could run, pass, and catch. And Lombardi said he was a much better blocker than Taylor. He also place-kicked which enabled him to lead the NFL in scoring for three seasons. He was named NFL player of the year in 1960 and 1961.

    In “Vince Lombardi on Football” Lombardi wrote, “Paul may have been the best all-around back ever to play football.” And he called him his best clutch player. http://www.packers.com/news-and-eve...the-best/39de7507-2c2c-4543-b6c4-c5265bbe9be0

    Lombardi called Hornung his biggest playmaker in “Run to Daylight,” and he wrote, “… in the middle of the field he may be only slightly better than an average ballplayer, but inside that 20-yard line he is one of the greatest players I’ve ever seen. He smells that goal line." https://books.google.com/books?id=V...o daylight "He smells that goal line"&f=false

    Finally from Maraniss’ “When Pride Still Mattered”: “He (Hornung) was a money player, the one Lombardi knew would somehow find a way to score when they were near the goal line, that rare gifted runner who was not too proud to block, a charismatic leader who wanted to be one of the boys yet lifted the hearts of his teammates by just being among them.” https://books.google.com/books?id=i...nepage&q=Marie Lombardi loved hornung&f=false
     
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  16. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    2 things to throw in ...

    Jim brown imo should have won the heisman

    Jim Taylor is the only player to out rush Jim brown in a season. Brown led the league every other year his played.
     
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  17. vince

    vince Cheesehead

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    Good stuff thanks TJV. Starr and Nitschke from the Lombardi years makes sense to me. I do tend to agree that White's number retired may be a tad generous, as is Canadeo's IMO. That's just my opinion though. I think if Hutson, Starr, Nitschke, and Favre were the only numbers retired, it would set the highest standard possible - befitting the uniqueness of the franchise.
     
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  18. Robert Mason

    Robert Mason Cheesehead

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    Be prepared to retire #12 someday !
     
  19. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    I feel like if you retired #5 you would have to retire 31 too.
     
  20. Robert Mason

    Robert Mason Cheesehead

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    It really is an odd situation. The #5 jersey is not retired, but there has been a reluctance to use it. I don't think #44 has been used much either between Donny Anderson and Starks.
     
  21. Robert Mason

    Robert Mason Cheesehead

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    31 has been used a lot more than 5.
     
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  22. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    I don´t think Davon House´s play during his time with the Packers warrants his number being retired. :D
     
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  23. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    There have been 11 players who wore #44 between Anderson and Starks.
     
  24. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    Interestingly, the Saints retired Taylor's number, as well as Doug Atkins', whereas the Packers and Bears, respectively, have not.

    I saw these guys play in my youth, and in my opinion Hornung over Taylor is a matter more of image than productivity.

    Hornung had only 4 seasons where he ran the ball 100+ times and only one season when he caught over 20 passes.

    Over his career, he scored 62 TDs rushing and receiving on 1,023 touches, one TD per 16.5 touches. That's an extraordinarily good ratio, but he simply didn't touch the ball all that often, 114 times per season, 9.8 touches per game for 49.9 yards per game.

    Taylor, excluding his one season with New Orleans, had 1,998 rushes and catches, 91 TDs rushing and receiving, or one TD per 22.0 touches. If the Golden Boy was the "inside the 20" guy getting more prime opportunities per touch, Taylor's scoring ability more than stacks up. With 115 games played, Taylor had 17.4 touches per game for 84.5 yards per game.

    Hornung's chief NFL resume item is his 1960 season when he set the all-time single season scoring record which stood until Tomlinson's 2006 season. While Hornung scored 15 TDs in 1960, he set the scoring record on the strength of place kicking, including 41 extra points. He was awarded the MVP in 1961, as much a follow-up to his 1960 season than what he did in 1961 with the Lombardi winning the first of his championships.

    Taylor won the MVP the following year in 1962, scoring 19 TDs on 1,580 yards from scrimage.

    So why all the love for Hornung?

    Notre Dame, Heisman Trophy winner, tall, handsome, charming: the Golden Boy.

    It should be understood that beside being the face of the franchise, Hornung was a guy bringing a media image (in the nascent NFL's media era) to the blue collar backwater that was Green Bay. In fact, it's not a stretch to say that Gifford and Hornung were faces of the NFL.

    Manariss' also explores why Lombardi admired Hornung more than any other of his players in "When Pride Still Matters", why Hornung was given more slack and rope, why Lombardi had what we might call today "the Hornung rules". While an exercise in psudo-psychology, Manariss has a point: Hornung was everything Lombardi was not; Hornung had the attributes that Lombardi lacked, and wished he had, that would have eased his struggle to the top.

    In the final analysis, on the football field, Taylor was the engine of the offense. His image was as a lunch pail player, however I don't think it is very accurate. I would not have been surprised at all if Taylor would have outrun Hornung in a 40 yard dash in their primes; Taylor was a terrific athlete.

    And I doubt 1965 was the first time Taylor and Lombardi had a tense conversation about money which may have colored things a bit.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2015
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  25. TJV

    TJV Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    From everything I've read and heard I think Maraniss has it right: Lombardi loved Hornung. And it wasn’t just because of his talent as a football player: He called Forrest Gregg the best player he ever coached and had a close relationship with Starr, but Hornung was special to him. In 1967, Lombardi put Hornung on the expansion draft list, figuring he wouldn't be selected because he was injured and at the end of his career. The Saints picked him anyway. Jerry Kramer and a couple of other players said Lombardi would choke up and tear up when talking about it in the days following that draft.
    I agree Taylor was more important to the offense, but regarding their relative speed, you may be thinking of the Hornung after he incurred injuries and after his year suspension. There are a few sources for this story from the 1957 All-Star game:
    http://blamemyfather.com/hornung-and-karras-suspended/

    Woodson had the reputation of being one of the fastest players of his day. Knowing Hornung, I wouldn't doubt he may have gained extra motivation from a wager on that race. But I think you’re right about the relationship between Lombardi and Taylor.
     

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