2021 Intriguing Draft Prospects

Fat Dogs

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Neither Devin Bush (who played less than 300 snaps) nor Patrick Queen (who was terrible as a rookie) had anything to do with the Steelers and Ravens finish in top three on points allowed though. Kenneth Murray played less than 400 snaps for the Cardinals as well.

It's true the Buccaneers' duo of Lavonte David and Devin White gave the Packers some fits but they weren't the main reason Tampa finished eighth in points allowed either.


Patrick did play bad but let’s not act like he was a non factor. The guy still had over 100 tackles, 3 sacks, 2 FF, and an INT. We have to look past the individual stuff and not down play what these guys do for the overall D. You cant tell me that a guy flying around the field with 4.4- 5.0 sec speed doesn’t give you coverage sacks and turnovers because the QB can’t hit the easy outlet. Sorry but Bush has been a beast since he’s entered the league and was a monster before he got hurt. The others are still growing but you’d be silly to think that none of them had anything to do with those Defenses being so good.
 

Fat Dogs

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14 in the past 6 drafts. Not even half the teams let alone

(I am interpreting that to mean nearly every team has drafted one high recently.)


No sir. I’m simply saying that some teams value the position. Packers fans have the mindset that it would be unfathomable to draft one early because any late round pick or UFA can come down and tackle like this was the 1980’s NFL. Way different game. Guys picked in the first 2 rounds have elite speed, play recognition, instincts, and ability that these fill-ins simply don’t possess. Sure teams may get lucky sometimes but same holds true for every position. Ask Bucs fans where they would have wanted to draft an ILB if David would have walked.
 

GleefulGary

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Baltimore and Pittsburg had the #2 and #3 ranked defenses. Tampa was #8 and the Cardinals were #12 so I’d say it worked out pretty well. The game has changed. Some RB’s are targeted a ridiculous 10-15 times some games. TE’s are getting smaller and faster and not having “that guy” who can turn and run with these guys puts a defense at a huge advantage. I understand the mentality behind what your saying but it obviously hasn’t been working for Us. We’ve wasted a lot of draft picks for less than stellar play. It’s no different than drafting other positions. You get what you pay for. Grab a Devante Adams in round #2 or throw darts at guys like J’mon, MVS, & EQ in later rounds and pray they pan out.

Do you think Baltimore was as good as that because of Queen? Because he was bad on the field. Devin Bush played 5 games. Devin White was good. Simmons was pretty meh.

So if you’re going to use those players as to why those defenses were good, I think you’ve missed the point.
 

GleefulGary

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Patrick did play bad but let’s not act like he was a non factor. The guy still had over 100 tackles, 3 sacks, 2 FF, and an INT. We have to look past the individual stuff and not down play what these guys do for the overall D. You cant tell me that a guy flying around the field with 4.4- 5.0 sec speed doesn’t give you coverage sacks and turnovers because the QB can’t hit the easy outlet. Sorry but Bush has been a beast since he’s entered the league and was a monster before he got hurt. The others are still growing but you’d be silly to think that none of them had anything to do with those Defenses being so good.

The point with Bush is that the defense was still good without him playing.
 

GleefulGary

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Patrick did play bad but let’s not act like he was a non factor. The guy still had over 100 tackles, 3 sacks, 2 FF, and an INT. We have to look past the individual stuff and not down play what these guys do for the overall D. You cant tell me that a guy flying around the field with 4.4- 5.0 sec speed doesn’t give you coverage sacks and turnovers because the QB can’t hit the easy outlet. Sorry but Bush has been a beast since he’s entered the league and was a monster before he got hurt. The others are still growing but you’d be silly to think that none of them had anything to do with those Defenses being so good.

You would think after watching Blake Martinez we’d realize the tackle statistic is very overrated for evaluating play.


Queen didn’t have that many plays behind the LOS and was a liability in coverage. Speed without knowledge of what you’re doing doesn’t help that much. Now maybe Queen will be good someday, he certainly has the talent, but that defense was good this year in spite of him, not because of him.
 

GleefulGary

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You might want to go back and take a look. That D took a significant drop after Bush got hurt.

I’m not seeing anything significant statistically. I am seeing in the first 5 games they played one team with a winning record.

That defense is good because they have elite pass rushers and Minkah. Bush is a good player, but he clearly isn’t why that defense is good. You’re the one who pointed out their ranking, what was it, 2nd or 3rd? A guy who played 5 games (1/3 of the year) isn’t why they ranked there.
 

tynimiller

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I'd argue both Barnes and Kamal outplayed Queen from a per play production standpoint. Now does Queen still hold the higher ceiling? I'd bet yes, but 2021 may tell us whether same can be said February of 2022.
 

Fat Dogs

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You would think after watching Blake Martinez we’d realize the tackle statistic is very overrated for evaluating play.


Queen didn’t have that many plays behind the LOS and was a liability in coverage. Speed without knowledge of what you’re doing doesn’t help that much. Now maybe Queen will be good someday, he certainly has the talent, but that defense was good this year in spite of him, not because of him.


This is why I said to look past the individual stats and watch the little things these players do for the D. Without looking at each offense or defensive injuries because I can put in the work but personally I don’t think it would matter to you so I won’t. I can tell you the rushing numbers the stealers opponents had the first six weeks while Bush played. 29 yards, 104 yards, 29 yards, 94, and 75. These are the rushing yards the opponents had when Bush was out. 82, 265, 144, 139, 73, 129, 45, 104, 152, 127, 192, 127. Please tell me again how this D wasn’t affected?
 

Fat Dogs

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I'd argue both Barnes and Kamal outplayed Queen from a per play production standpoint. Now does Queen still hold the higher ceiling? I'd bet yes, but 2021 may tell us whether same can be said February of 2022.


How? You’ve seen every play of every Ravens game? I certainly haven’t. I only know Queen played bad because of the talking heads. I have watched every play of every game the Packers played and I will tell you that I’m not impressed or convinced that either one of these guys are long term starters for the Pack or any other team in the NFL.
 

tynimiller

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How? You’ve seen every play of every Ravens game? I certainly haven’t. I only know Queen played bad because of the talking heads. I have watched every play of every game the Packers played and I will tell you that I’m not impressed or convinced that either one of these guys are long term starters for the Pack or any other team in the NFL.

I am not convinced any of those three are long term, hence my exact comment. While I didn't watch all Ravens games I know I was a Patrick Queen fan and sought out as much of his games as possible, as well as like following breakdowns and statistically trackings.
 

Fat Dogs

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I am not convinced any of those three are long term, hence my exact comment. While I didn't watch all Ravens games I know I was a Patrick Queen fan and sought out as much of his games as possible, as well as like following breakdowns and statistically trackings.


That’s fair. I guess time will tell. I do know that LB is right up there with OL when it comes to a first and second round lower bust rate compared to other positions so I’m willing to bet on Queen.
 

Sunshinepacker

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Patrick did play bad but let’s not act like he was a non factor. The guy still had over 100 tackles, 3 sacks, 2 FF, and an INT. We have to look past the individual stuff and not down play what these guys do for the overall D. You cant tell me that a guy flying around the field with 4.4- 5.0 sec speed doesn’t give you coverage sacks and turnovers because the QB can’t hit the easy outlet. Sorry but Bush has been a beast since he’s entered the league and was a monster before he got hurt. The others are still growing but you’d be silly to think that none of them had anything to do with those Defenses being so good.

Bush has been pretty overrated to be fair. Alexander is AMAZING and their dline is fantastic. Bush's contribution to that defense might be somewhere between 6th and 9th.
 

Fat Dogs

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Bush has been pretty overrated to be fair. Alexander is AMAZING and their dline is fantastic. Bush's contribution to that defense might be somewhere between 6th and 9th.


Alexander? The Pitt D-line is good but they didn’t hold up against the run when Bush went out. Im not going to pretend that I’ve seen every stealers game but I was very impressed when I did watch him. The guy just has a nose for the ball and has the speed and athleticism to consistently make plays.
 

GleefulGary

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Alexander? The Pitt D-line is good but they didn’t hold up against the run when Bush went out. Im not going to pretend that I’ve seen every stealers game but I was very impressed when I did watch him. The guy just has a nose for the ball and has the speed and athleticism to consistently make plays.

Your comparison isn’t fair either. They played ****** teams when Bush was healthy.

The team still did well defensively without him, as you pointed out in your initial post.

I’d rather my team do better against the pass than the run. That’s where games are won.
 

Fat Dogs

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Your comparison isn’t fair either. They played ****** teams when Bush was healthy.

The team still did well defensively without him, as you pointed out in your initial post.

I’d rather my team do better against the pass than the run. That’s where games are won.


I’ll give you the Giants and Houston but the Broncos, Eagles, and Browns were better rushing teams than the Cowboys, Bengals, Jaguars, Washington, Bills, and Bengals again. All of these teams were in the bottom half of the league in rushing in 2020.

Ok, you got me. I will admit that the Stealers still had a formidable defense but they 100% got worse at stopping the run.

pass defense is very important so wouldn't it be nice to have an amazing coverage ILB like Cox standing next to Kamal?
 

tynimiller

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I've expressed it elsewhere but seeing stories and folks pushing the trade up for Rashad Bateman talk makes me want to express a bit about Nico. Now I'm a HUGE Bateman fan, but I cannot advocate trading up in the first to get a luxury pick not of need IMO. CB sure, even slight move up to get a OL or Barmore if fear of not having the option of him.

But if we want that #2 level, tall, fast, shifty possible heir apparent in 4 years or so to Davante - trading up or hoping Nico is there at #62 is something IMO fans should get on board with.

Nico Collins has everything you want out of a WR.
6'4"
215 lbs
79 inch wingspan
4.45 40yd speed
1.55 10yd split time
37.5 inch vert
10 foot 5 inch broad jump
6.71 cone
Overall RAS 9.56

There's the measurables...now go watch the tape. Plagued with inconsistent (nicest way to say ******) QB play basically his entire career at Michigan, Nico still produced solid numbers in 2018 and 2019 (2020 opt out)
2018 - 38 Rec - 632 Yds - 16.6 YPC - 6 TDs
2019 - 37 Rec - 729 Yds - 19.7 YPC - 7 TDs
Both of those seasons Donovan Peoples-Jones was there as well, which makes his better numbers that much more impressive.

It isn't often after the first round you can nab guys like him with size, speed and high ceiling.
 

tynimiller

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Another one: CB Chris Wilcox (BYU)

Chris is a guy I think could shock some folks with how early he goes. The biggest question mark for me is does his abilities transfer from zone experience to man coverage when asked at the NFL level. Dude can fly at 4.39 and does have the 8.00 RAS or higher score (a rule Gute rarely steps back from).

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He is an ELITE tackler, for a cornerback, with many places stating he didn't have a single missed tackle in 2020; which is an impressive statline for any position, let alone a CB.

Day 3 if he's there when Green Bay is on the clock and you hear his name - you can smile, as we at minimum just added a fast, skilled, tackler with a fairly high ceiling.
 
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Patrick did play bad but let’s not act like he was a non factor. The guy still had over 100 tackles, 3 sacks, 2 FF, and an INT. We have to look past the individual stuff and not down play what these guys do for the overall D. You cant tell me that a guy flying around the field with 4.4- 5.0 sec speed doesn’t give you coverage sacks and turnovers because the QB can’t hit the easy outlet. Sorry but Bush has been a beast since he’s entered the league and was a monster before he got hurt. The others are still growing but you’d be silly to think that none of them had anything to do with those Defenses being so good.

I'm sorry but Bush (27.0% of the snaps played) and Simmons (33.9%) didn't play enough to be considered a huge factor in the success of their respective defense.

The Ravens defense was successful despite Queen playing not because of it.

I'm not opposed to the Packers spending an early rounder on the position if the right situation presents itself but there are more important positions to be addressed in my opinion.
 

Fat Dogs

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I like Jabril Cox a lot. Wouldn’t take him at 29 though.


Im sure a lot of you would be pissed if that happened. I’m not advocating that. It’s crazy because I’ve seen him ranked all over the place on big boards. The problem is knowing where to grab guy like Cox. I’d jump through hoops if he fell to us in the second.
 

Fat Dogs

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I've expressed it elsewhere but seeing stories and folks pushing the trade up for Rashad Bateman talk makes me want to express a bit about Nico. Now I'm a HUGE Bateman fan, but I cannot advocate trading up in the first to get a luxury pick not of need IMO. CB sure, even slight move up to get a OL or Barmore if fear of not having the option of him.

But if we want that #2 level, tall, fast, shifty possible heir apparent in 4 years or so to Davante - trading up or hoping Nico is there at #62 is something IMO fans should get on board with.

Nico Collins has everything you want out of a WR.
6'4"
215 lbs
79 inch wingspan
4.45 40yd speed
1.55 10yd split time
37.5 inch vert
10 foot 5 inch broad jump
6.71 cone
Overall RAS 9.56

There's the measurables...now go watch the tape. Plagued with inconsistent (nicest way to say ******) QB play basically his entire career at Michigan, Nico still produced solid numbers in 2018 and 2019 (2020 opt out)
2018 - 38 Rec - 632 Yds - 16.6 YPC - 6 TDs
2019 - 37 Rec - 729 Yds - 19.7 YPC - 7 TDs
Both of those seasons Donovan Peoples-Jones was there as well, which makes his better numbers that much more impressive.

It isn't often after the first round you can nab guys like him with size, speed and high ceiling.


I go back and forth with this daily. I love love love a lot of these top tier receivers including Toney (even though I know you hate him.) guy is just incredible after the catch and I have no idea why you think he can’t run routes when all he does is get open. That said, this class is deeper at the position than I can remember any draft in recent memory so receivers with 2nd round talent will be going in the 3rd and 4th. Same with O-line. It will be interesting to see the approach Gute takes on both positions of need.
 

tynimiller

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I go back and forth with this daily. I love love love a lot of these top tier receivers including Toney (even though I know you hate him.) guy is just incredible after the catch and I have no idea why you think he can’t run routes when all he does is get open. That said, this class is deeper at the position than I can remember any draft in recent memory so receivers with 2nd round talent will be going in the 3rd and 4th. Same with O-line. It will be interesting to see the approach Gute takes on both positions of need.

Just on Toney, his route running abilities will be illustrated against higher level corners. Toney relies solely on his speed to get open, not crisp footwork or with an array of releases. I don't dislike him at 62 (wouldn't do it personally though), but he is most definitely IMO not a first rounder like many seem to think.

I think this class has more depth due to some opt outs - that allowed other now draft prospects to illustrate their chops perhaps in a fashion they wouldn't have been able to otherwise...no real way of defending that just a observational thought I had the other day.
 

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