2019 Week 10 vs. Carolina: Studs and Duds

[HardRightEdge]

I only jumped once, so i'm not an expert, and wind is a factor, but these guys jump in wind all the time and know pretty well how to deal with it.

Yeah, except a guy slammed a wall and could have slammed a spectator. So there's that.

Paratroopers get killed on the battlefield slamming into trees and whatnot.

We saw Bush 42 doing it age 90. It must all be highly controlled and a benign adrenaline rush. On the other hand, not far from where I used to live outside Chicago there was civilian jump operation. Somebody would get killed there every year. Then the owner was killed in a jump and the place shut down.

If you go again, check your life insurance policy first for an exclusion.

 

[PackAttack12]

I’m worried about David Bakhtiari. Is he really that hurt? Two games in a row he’s gotten WORKED.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

As for the "guys" or pronouns, I'm too old to change and I don't see the point of it. I find it comical when writers substitute the "she" for the old "him" in a gender neutral contexts like it is some kind of reparation. Anyway, gals often call their friends collectively "guys" so we should go pick on them.

Agreed I was just.....

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[Pokerbrat2000]

presnap/snap penalties really have to be cleaned up

I think that aspect was THE most frustrating part of this game for me. There really is no excuse at this point in the season, especially at home with a very veteran QB.

MLF may take the heat for the Delay calls by saying he isn't substituting fast enough or getting the plays in quick enough, but given how much play clock is still left when Rodgers lines up, I'm still going to blame #12 for most of those penalties.

Let's hope that the bye week cleans that mess up and we stop seeing the needless burning of timeouts or 5 yard penalties due to something that you should have full control over by now.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I’m worried about David Bakhtiari. Is he really that hurt? Two games in a row he’s gotten WORKED.

He's got a bad back. He was sitting out practices earlier in the year. I doubt it just fixed itself whacking guys and getting whacked over and over every week. At this level, the difference between the physical condition that goes into elite performance vs. the one that leads to something less is a narrow margin.

It's not as obvious as, say, Rodgers' gimped up knee last season that hindered his escapability, essential to his game, but it's reasonable to think Bakhtiari's back is an ongoing issue.

Just because a guy is not on an injury report doesn't mean he's playing at 100%. Maybe the bye week will help some.

 

[PackerfaninCarolina]

Is MLF turning into MM 2.0? End of half playcall strikes me as exactly what MM would have called. He even blamed execution which is what MM always did. Punting on our final drive also seemed MM-esque.

I believe MM would have taken the 3 points given his conservative nature, but then again we cannot speculate on that as he is not here anymore.

MLF has made rookie HC mistakes, and we as fans have to be ready for and expect that. But he's not wrong about the execution in 3 phases of this game. There were plays to be had on offense and defense that had guys either dropping catches or picks, missing QB sack opportunities, missing open receivers at times. Only criticism I might put MLF under the microscope for is tying his can to Shawn Mennenga. Special teams is still a mess that should have been cleaned up once Zook got kicked out of here.

 

[PackerfaninCarolina]

Watching that game or any Packer game lately is very challenging. The offense is so predictable sometimes. Rodgers looks like anything but a veteran QB. I compare it to when basketball teams used to go into the four corner offense. Honestly, if I have to watch #12 roll out and heave a lollipop on 3rd and 5 instead of just getting the 1st down, I am gonna puke my guts out. Whatever happened to marching the ball down the field? The other team has no problem doing that. Where did Geronimo Alison go? Where are all these talented wideouts? Which brings me to the defense. Once again, a nobody QB looks like a hall of famer against this supposed top notch defense. Their lack of ability actually helped them yesterday. Josh Allen had so many guys open that he had to throw which basically took McCaffrey out of the mix. It's always the same guys too. Martinez - horrible, King - playing 12 yards off every receiver although he still made some decent plays, Alexander - I really thought this kid was going to be a stud but not lately, Savage - looks sooo small out there and can't tackle and what's up with J.K. Scott? How long do coaches look at the same bs happening and just ignore it? I don't know, maybe I expect too much.

What a stupid post

 

[Mondio]

Yeah, except a guy slammed a wall and could have slammed a spectator. So there's that.

Paratroopers get killed on the battlefield slamming into trees and whatnot.

We saw Bush 42 doing it age 90. It must all be highly controlled and a benign adrenaline rush. On the other hand, not far from where I used to live outside Chicago there was civilian jump operation. Somebody would get killed there every year. Then the owner was killed in a jump and the place shut down.

If you go again, check your life insurance policy first for an exclusion.

and one slammed into a bar roof in la Crosse as I sat in my buddy's apt kiddie corner from it for a 4th of july show. I know it's dangerous. But they do it, everywhere. I don't think nighttime made it anymore dangerous in this particular instance as the target is probably more easily visible.

Jumping into a stadium isn't unheard of, they do it all the time. It is dangerous, but then so is the drive to watch the game.

 

[GleefulGary]

In regards to the decision to not kick the FG, I love it. I'll take that kind of aggressive calling every day. The people dissing it are the ones that judge on result, not process.

So again, I love the action. Love the aggressiveness. Now just need to fix the execution.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I think that aspect was THE most frustrating part of this game for me. There really is no excuse at this point in the season, especially at home with a very veteran QB.

MLF may take the heat for the Delay calls by saying he isn't substituting fast enough or getting the plays in quick enough, but given how much play clock is still left when Rodgers lines up, I'm still going to blame #12 for most of those penalties.

Let's hope that the bye week cleans that mess up and we stop seeing the needless burning of timeouts or 5 yard penalties due to something that you should have full control over by now.

There are cases where play clock awareness is an issue but there's more to it than that.

Why would a QB run it down to zero in the first place? Situationally, you may be burning clock. At other times defenses disguise and then move pre-snap. It you take the snap at zero, you've taken defensive pre-snap adjustment out of the equation--they are where they are at the snap. Now, if the QB doesn't like what he sees for the play that's called, and the defense isn't moving into something more favorable at 0:01, you've got a choice: take the 5 yard penalty or burn a down with a play not likely to work or burn a timeout.

This is not to forgive every delay of game penalty. But if you're not in the huddle or in the play caller's head or in the QB's head, you cannot conclude that snapping the ball is preferable to the delay of game in every instance. There is a rhyme and reason to some of these penalties. Breaking the huddle with 10 seconds on the play clock is probably not one of them. On the other hand, with eyes on the defense and clock ticking in the QBs head, a late snap can happen.

I find it strange that anybody would think one of the great football minds standing behind center would be questioned as malfunctioning mentally on a regular basis. If you want perfection, die and go to heaven, if you believe in that kind of thing.

If you want a robo QB, root for the Rams. Thank your lucky stars you're not watching the Bills every week. I was thinking a few ago that this time next year they'll be talking about Josh Allen as mentally broken and beyond fixing. Broken is the wrong word since it's something that wasn't right in the first place. But after yesterday, it is a word being tossed around and I can't blame them.

 

[OldSchool101]

Game flow should be considered too. If you're 28-24 at the time and headed for a shootout you're probably going to want to go for it, if it's a 10-3 defensive struggle, take the points.

Exactly. There’s quite a few variables in the decision to go for it.
What’s our 4th down%
How have we been in short yardage thus far?
What are the affecting weather conditions?
Are you losing or winning the game?
Who has the momentum?
How much time is left?
These are just a few variables that come to mind off the top of my head. While I disagree, I’m not going to crucify MLF as he’s got a “keep the gas pedal down” philosophy and we’ve been missing that. Also he might have the confidence and considered that we could win the game without the extra 4 points (we did).

Yeah, I'm pretty sure, "Take the points early. Go for it late" is a maxim. Maxims are maxims. That call went against my grain, and it gave me one.

IMO. It’s too early in the game to gamble for 7 verses taking 3. In the 4th quarter I might take that gamble, depending on the score and particularly if Im behind and calculating a limited # of possessions on the game clock.
The likelihood of the 3 points was near 100%.
The “expected points” has to be lowered slighting by our failure to convert a 4th down yet this season. (We’re now 0-4). I believe the average would be slightly less than 50/50 here. 7(45%) =3.15 points area. That’s leaning down due to the increasing factor of poor field conditions (less scoring and a higher chance of error). To me, this is the same as working the clock to probability. When you are ahead the % chance of winning increases slightly play by play. When you are losing just the opposite.
(Take into account what we all know in a final drive situations within 2 minutes. There’s a similar trade off for yards verses seconds. We’ve all seen it. Don’t get caught wasting 20 of 60 seconds for 2 yards on your side of the field.)

In this scenario, the FG would increase the lead more and further the clock (although miniscule at the 1 yard line). Taking that factor and that we play 1 half game and get the ball first? I like our chances going up 7. It’s then basically 7-0 our lead with 1/2 game left and you kick to me first and I get the ball in #12 hands. I’ll place a bet on that one.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I know it's dangerous. But they do it, everywhere.

You might want to mull the implications of that just a bit.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Agreed I was just.....

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Would that be Willie Beavers?

 

[gopkrs]

In regards to the decision to not kick the FG, I love it. I'll take that kind of aggressive calling every day. The people dissing it are the ones that judge on result, not process.

So again, I love the action. Love the aggressiveness. Now just need to fix the execution.

You look at it as aggressive. I look at it as fans just wanting excitement and not what is in the best interest of the team winning.

 

[Mondio]

You might want to mull on the implications of that just a bit.

why? It's not my decision to make. They skydive into all sorts of stadiums on a weekly basis for all sports around the world. They did the same earlier this year at Lambeau in fact. But I think that was to start the game, not at halftime. Unless it's a military demonstration or dogs catching frisbees I usually don't stick around to watch anyway.

if you want to argue they can't skydive into stadiums or for 4th of July celebrations or whatever else, feel free. I don't really care. I think it's cool, but I wouldn't care if they did something else either.

But they do, and it being nighttime at Lambeau, IMO didn't make it any more dangerous than any other jump they make. that's what I was addressing. Though in GB, day or night, having Lambeau be your target is likely fairly easy to pick up.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

There are cases where play clock awareness is an issue but there's more to it than that.

While I agree with you to some extent, especially if Rodgers was a rookie QB, I would expect this to happen more and be less worried about it. Also, the fact that the ball is often getting snapped, after the fact of the play clock already rolling past 0 and the penalty already called, leads me to believe that this isn't just a case of Rodgers saying to himself "didn't like the play call VS the defense, take the penalty instead of run the play."

There are times when a 5 yard penalty is not big deal and probably preferred over a botch play, because the offense wasn't ready. However, burning timeouts and taking delay of game penalties because you don't get to the LOS with enough time or #12 is being overly selective on his mind games with the defense, isn't acceptable to me.

The Packers now lead the league with 9 Delay of Game penalties, which I believe is also a new NFL record. That is 3 more than the team behind them (Jets) and 5 more than any after that.

I still firmly believe its a problem that needs to get cleaned up.

 

[AmishMafia]

Why would a QB run it down to zero in the first place? Situationally, you may be burning clock. At other times defenses disguise and then move pre-snap. It you take the snap at zero, you've taken defensive pre-snap adjustment out of the equation--they are where they are at the snap. Now, if the QB doesn't like what he sees for the play that's called, and the defense isn't moving into something more favorable at 0:01, you've got a choice: take the 5 yard penalty or burn a down with a play not likely to work or burn a timeout.

This is not to forgive every delay of game penalty. But if you're not in the huddle or in the play caller's head or in the QB's head, you cannot conclude that snapping the ball is preferable to the delay of game in every instance. There is a rhyme and reason to some of these penalties. Breaking the huddle with 10 seconds on the play clock is probably not one of them. On the other hand, with eyes on the defense and clock ticking in the QBs head, a late snap can happen.

I find it strange that anybody would think one of the great football minds standing behind center would be questioned as malfunctioning mentally on a regular basis. If you want perfection, die and go to heaven, if you believe in that kind of thing.

If you want a robo QB, root for the Rams. Thank your lucky stars you're not watching the Bills every week. I was thinking a few ago that this time next year they'll be talking about Josh Allen as mentally broken and beyond fixing. Broken is the wrong word since it's something that wasn't right in the first place. But after yesterday, it is a word being tossed around and I can't blame them.

Wouldn't running the play clock down to zero give more time and opportunity to adjust? You stop the presnap adjustments by snapping the ball.

Rodgers delays the snap mostly to see if defenders betray their intentions by subtle movements. Or so I believe to be the case.

Worst part of it is, If you wait too long, a smart pass rusher can get a great jump if he can time it because of the waning play clock.

 

[Arod2gjdd]

Stud

King-best player on defense

Clark-best game of the year

P Smith

Adams-looking like himself

O-line (with the exception of that horrific Bahktiari whiff on the goal line)

line play in general

Jones/Williams


Dud

MVS if anything?

Would like a little more Marcedes Lewis in the passing game

Delay of game following a timeout........

 

[OldSchool101]

While I agree with you to some extent, especially if Rodgers was a rookie QB, I would expect this to happen more and be less worried about it. Also, the fact that the ball is often getting snapped, after the fact of the play clock already rolling past 0 and the penalty already called, leads me to believe that this isn't just a case of Rodgers saying to himself "didn't like the play call VS the defense, take the penalty instead of run the play."

There are times when a 5 yard penalty is not big deal and probably preferred over a botch play, because the offense wasn't ready. However, burning timeouts and taking delay of game penalties because you don't get to the LOS with enough time or #12 is being overly selective on his mind games with the defense, isn't acceptable to me.

The Packers now lead the league with 9 Delay of Game penalties, which I believe is also a new NFL record. That is 3 more than the team behind them (Jets) and 5 more than any after that.

I still firmly believe its a problem that needs to get cleaned up.

That’s pretty telling!
What’s so surprising to me is the one guy a few years ago who was known to be the Master of the clock is now struggling with it. I realize it’s not all his fault. But I do hold him responsible for not getting a play off after a TO and we’ve seen this several times now. This kind of stuff is usually cleaned up by this time of the season. I guess you could look at the silver lining and say this is an example that we have room to improve.

 

[Dantés]

On the 3rd and 9 conversion to Lazard on the way to the first touchdown, watch how well Bakhtiari handles the stunt. It's hard to believe that the inside man didn't end up getting Rodgers.

 

[swhitset]

Watching that game or any Packer game lately is very challenging. The offense is so predictable sometimes. Rodgers looks like anything but a veteran QB. I compare it to when basketball teams used to go into the four corner offense. Honestly, if I have to watch #12 roll out and heave a lollipop on 3rd and 5 instead of just getting the 1st down, I am gonna puke my guts out. Whatever happened to marching the ball down the field? The other team has no problem doing that. Where did Geronimo Alison go? Where are all these talented wideouts? Which brings me to the defense. Once again, a nobody QB looks like a hall of famer against this supposed top notch defense. Their lack of ability actually helped them yesterday. Josh Allen had so many guys open that he had to throw which basically took McCaffrey out of the mix. It's always the same guys too. Martinez - horrible, King - playing 12 yards off every receiver although he still made some decent plays, Alexander - I really thought this kid was going to be a stud but not lately, Savage - looks sooo small out there and can't tackle and what's up with J.K. Scott? How long do coaches look at the same bs happening and just ignore it? I don't know, maybe I expect too much.

Your last sentence is about all I agree with.

 

[swhitset]

In regards to the decision to not kick the FG, I love it. I'll take that kind of aggressive calling every day. The people dissing it are the ones that judge on result, not process.

So again, I love the action. Love the aggressiveness. Now just need to fix the execution.

You can love it or not... that’s your right to your opinion. Your description of those of us that are on the other side is not just insulting because it insinuates that you think you are smarter, but it is also very wrong ...proving you are not. I have already stated that while I admired the agressive nature of the call, I also believed it to be a mistake BEFORE the ball was ever snapped. In my opinion getting points is more important than sending a message... Neither of us is wrong.

 

[PackerfaninCarolina]

While I agree with you to some extent, especially if Rodgers was a rookie QB, I would expect this to happen more and be less worried about it. Also, the fact that the ball is often getting snapped, after the fact of the play clock already rolling past 0 and the penalty already called, leads me to believe that this isn't just a case of Rodgers saying to himself "didn't like the play call VS the defense, take the penalty instead of run the play."

There are times when a 5 yard penalty is not big deal and probably preferred over a botch play, because the offense wasn't ready. However, burning timeouts and taking delay of game penalties because you don't get to the LOS with enough time or #12 is being overly selective on his mind games with the defense, isn't acceptable to me.

The Packers now lead the league with 9 Delay of Game penalties, which I believe is also a new NFL record. That is 3 more than the team behind them (Jets) and 5 more than any after that.

I still firmly believe its a problem that needs to get cleaned up.

What really had me infuriated about it yesterday was it was at a time in the game when they should know their objective is running the ball and getting that first down so easily. Your running game is enforcing their will on the Panthers defense in that 4th quarter and the snow is coming down, 3rd and 2 in their territory should be automatic hand it to Jones or Williams and let them power through that D.

I just seriously hope during the next practice sessions LaFleur starts pushing Rodgers and the OL to break the huddle quicker

 

[HardRightEdge]

Wouldn't running the play clock down to zero give more time and opportunity to adjust? You stop the presnap adjustments by snapping the ball.

Right. However, the defense can move and then move back, the backfield may adjust and then the line repositions after that. The defense could be moving in reaction to the offense's own movements all while there is time on the play clock. The point I was making is at 0:01 - 0:01 on the clock, the defensive alignment is set if they are not dysfunctional like some past Packer secondaries . You're not snaping the ball into a defensive adjustment.

Rodgers delays the snap mostly to see if defenders betray their intentions by subtle movements. Or so I believe to be the case.

That's the same side of the same coin.

Worst part of it is, If you wait too long, a smart pass rusher can get a great jump if he can time it because of the waning play clock.

Sure. I observed in a past week where one of the Smiths did just that. "Clever b*stard" is the phrase I think I used. As noted, you could also wait a tick too long and get nailed with the penalty. There are no free lunches; the question is whether the meal is worth the price.

My point is simply that running the clock to zero isn't necessarily a function of bad communication or a failure in clock awareness. Considering that the instances where the snap is out at 0:01 - 0:00 are far more numerous than the ones that draw a penalty, it's worth considering the rhyme and reason behind it. At the same time, no approach to anything is mistake free.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Stud

King-best player on defense

In nicknaming him "The Weather", one moment his sun is shining, five minutes later it's raining on him. One minute he's backpedling off a receiver 5+ yards for fear of a double move which I guess is better than possible alternatives; the next he's defending a ball in the end zone or making a nice tackle in space. His inconsistency is pretty striking.