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Woodson GOAT?

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by ivo610, Jun 27, 2012.

  1. ivo610
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    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    Saw someone in an article call Woodson the greatest corner of all time. My initial thought was that's a stretch but the more I thought about it I realized maybe it's not. At his best few if any have been better. His versatility sets him apart from Revis or Deion (Revis belongs in the same convo as Deion). Others have done it longer and with more consistency, I see you D Green, but not at the peak level as Woodson.

    Rod Woodson, Mel Blount, and Night Train Lane have arguments for the GOAT, but I think Woodson does as well.

    What do you guys think? Is Woodson the best ever or possibly close to it?
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  2. metallicblaze
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    metallicblaze Cheesehead

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    I don't think I know enough football to properly reply to this, but I would like to see better defense next year from the team and Woody is a part of this defense.

    I do like his versatility, his ball skills and fearlessness, but greatest all time. I doubt it. I'd put him in the talks though.
  3. FrankRizzo
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    FrankRizzo Cheesehead

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    Full body of work, he has an argument. Why is it argue, but arguement is wrong, have to remove the e? That doesn't make sense.

    All I know is we are so so so so so lucky to have gotten Woodson, and lucky for him to have stayed this durable for us for 6 years so far. Ironic, and sad, that the time he got hurt was in the Super Bowl. His absence was a turning point. We saw his value there.
  4. ivo610
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    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    excited to hear GWH11s opinion on this
  5. Lunchboxer
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    Lunchboxer Guest

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    Id say hes the best. His long list of achievements is quite impressive.

    Hes a sure shot for HoF
  6. bozz_2006
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    bozz_2006 Cheesehead

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    I don't know that I can call him greatest of all time, but maybe he's had the greatest career resurgence of any CB.

    But I do love me some Woodson. Been my favorite defensive player since this:
  7. PackCrazed4
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    PackCrazed4 Cheesehead

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    The "ment" supposedly omits the need for the e. I think the drunks who came up with the grammatical rules to the English language simply thought the e looked tacky, haha. Of course, there's 100 exceptions, like confinement and judgement.
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  8. Helmets
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    Helmets Cheesehead

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    As much as I like Woodson and think he can be in any conversation with regards to this topic, the best cover corner, play-maker, and game changer of all time -IMO was ...Primetime, Primetime, Primetime...

    He hated to tackle, but put him back deep on a punt late in the game with your team down, and you instantly had a chance to get right back in the game. Although Woodson will put his head in and tackle, he doesn't have Deion's ability to change a game in the return game. Deion was still returning punts late in his career with the Redskins and Ravens. He was also a weapon on offense, recording as many as 36 receptions in one season. He scored 22 touchdowns total to Woodson's 12.

    Interceptions are almost identical with Sanders at 53 and Woodson at 54' however Sir Charles has a tremendous lead in forced fumbles with 28 compared to Sanders' 10. Woodson again tops Sanders in tackles with 753 to Sanders' meager 492.

    Yes, the more I compare them, the tougher it is to not consider Woodson the GOAT!
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  9. bozz_2006
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    bozz_2006 Cheesehead

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    Judgment. The acceptance of "judgement" was only adopted as a proper spelling of the word in the US very recently. With the e is actually the British spelling (theater vs theatre, flavor vs flavour, acknowledgment vs acknowledgement). The British actually are much more concerned with following their own grammar rules than Americans. And in English, the g isn't supposed to be soft unless proceeded by i, e, or y. We don't care much about following our own grammar rules, and in fact our spelling is much more respectful of the words' native grammar rules. So "judgement" is not incorrect, but in American English, without the e is the preferred spelling.

    And for argue/argument, they come from Latin, and share the base word "argu". Technically, the "e" on argue and the "ment" on argument are both suffixes. So "arguement" doesn't work because that would be adding two suffixes to the base word "argu".
  10. ivo610
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    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    Did Prime ever strip sack or strip tackle? Damn Charles does it well
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  11. El Guapo
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    I agree that Sanders was a better pass defender than Woodson, no question, but not a better cornerback. That's an important difference. Furthermore, you started your arguEment by saying that Sanders was a better corner but then immediately backed it up by saying it was because of his punt return ability. That has nothing to do with being a cornerback. That has to do with being an all-around player. That's like saying that Jarrett Bush is better cornerback than Woodson and Sanders because he makes more special teams tackles. It doesn't make any sense, at least not in English.

    As for game changing, the stats you provided disproved your theory. Turnovers change games more than punt returns because they take the ball away from the other team. A punt return can be a game changer if he scores. Deion only had six TDs off of punt returns (3 more off of KR), so if you add all of those to his turnovers he's still only at 19 game-changing plays versus Woodson's 28 turnovers. Maybe you could argue that some of Deion's PRs set up touchdowns, but now you're walking on thin ice.

    This all reminds me of the Barry Sanders vs Emmitt Smith debate. Sanders was a better runner, more electric. But in the running back position, Smith was better. He could catch and block just as good as he could run so he was better at his position even though he wasn't the best at running. Same with Sanders vs Woodson. Sanders was a great cover guy but Woodson does it all top notch - pass defending, run defense, turnovers, sacks....and if you want to add the non-cornerback stuff on top (like PR and KR), then you must consider that Woodson is twice as nice and ten times as humble as someone who named himself Primetime.

    As for whether Woodson is the greatest of all time? I'm not a fan of making those distinctions because you can't. It's just an arguEment. Woodson is easily in the top5 of all time and that's good enough for me.
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  12. ivo610
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    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    great post
  13. FrankRizzo
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    As anyone with little kids has learned, there are no consistent rhyme or reasons to our language, spelling, grammar. Also for anyone else who has a wife who's first language is not English. Whoever invented our language was a combination of: drunk, dyslexic, blind, alzheimerish, mean-spirited.

    How do you spell ship? How about worship?
    How do you spell them in the past tense?
    Still one P in each?

    Woodson was a better all-around player than Primetime.
    Primetime was the best pure shutdown corner of all-time, the poster-boy for that label.
    Barry Sanders, Deion, and Derrick Thomas were the 3 key guys we passed on in 1989 in order to take the blocker on steroids. Amazing.
  14. ivo610
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    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    Thomas would have been the best bet. Sanders we end up like the lions, Deion told the packers not to draft him bc wouldn't show up, so Thomas would have been the best choice of those guys IMO
  15. gwh11
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    I can't remember--did we talk about this before?
    A Charles Woodson as GOAT argument isn't that much of a stretch.
    Anyone can look up the stats (a lot of attention is directed to the number of forced fumbles, but keep in mind the fact that there are incomplete statistics on that before 1990) and the accolades, which place him in the company of the very best to ever play the position.

    As we all know, it's a challenge to compare players from different eras, even at the same position.
    But any discussion of the NFL's greatest cornerbacks should include some mention of the evolution of the passing game.

    Has there ever been a time in the NFL where playing defensive back has been more challenging?

    Beginning in 1974 the extent of downfield contact a defender could have with a receiver was limited.
    In 1977 defenders were permitted to make contact with eligible receivers only once.
    In 1978 the NFL restricted that contact beyond five yards of scrimmage.
    In 1995 a receiver knocked out of bounds by a defensive player could return to the field to make a play.
    In 1996 the five yard contact rule began to be enforced more stringently, and hits with the helmet or hits to the head began to be flagged as personal fouls, subject to fines.
    In 2001 roughing the passer calls began to be enforced more strictly.
    In 2004 the league increased enforcement of illegal contact, pass interference, and defensive holding rules.
    In 2009 contact to the head of a defenseless receiver was prohibited.

    All of this should be taken into consideration when comparing Woodson to players like Mel Blount, Dick Lane, etc.

    In addition, people should realize that the play of Lane and Blount precipitated some of these rule changes.
    In other words, Blount and Lane can be said to have changed the game to some extent.

    Has Woodson changed the game? Perhaps he's helped change the manner in which a modern-day cornerback can be successfully utilized.

    And he's playing in an age where the NFL is increasingly looking like arena football.


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  16. ThxJackVainisi
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    ThxJackVainisi Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    Good post, gwh11. That litany of rule changes is applicable to the discussion on another thread regarding the relative importance of the running game. I agree it's difficult to compare players from different eras but just regarding the Woodson vs. Deion Sanders, IMO Sanders is the better cover corner but Woodson is the better overall defender. We are all fortunate to have watched him play for an innovative DC like Capers and of course he's not done.
  17. FrankRizzo
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    I also admit I wanted, at that time, Derrick Thomas. I would have erred in passing on Barry Sanders... but Thomas was great so that was not a mistake like Mandarich was.

    In any event, we are very lucky to have landed Woodson because GeniusTed wanted Lavar Arrington first with that wad of FA money. And because Woodson wanted anyone but Green Bay and waited for weeks before becoming a Packer.
    Like on the field, there's plenty of luck in football. We had bad luck last year the week of our playoff game. We had good luck getting Woodson, and Rodgers actually.
  18. HyponGrey
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    HyponGrey Caseus Locutus Est

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    No love for Jim Thorpe? Wait, I think he played safety. Anyway I'd say Woodson over Sanders because of the versatility he brings. Sanders perfected the art of off-man coverage, But I'd still take Wood because I feel I could wreak so much more havoc on an offense
  19. Pat4DaPack
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    Solid argument. He can lock down anyone at CB and can play and position on defense. Ill gladly accept him on the Packers as long as he feels he can do it!
  20. ivo610
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    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    No problem with someone disagreeing with me, but if you are going to click the button I would love to hear why you dont think Woodson is the best. On a Packers board it would be nice to hear a counter argument against him.

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