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Why Mike Sherman is a success

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by net, Jul 5, 2005.

  1. net
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    net Cheesehead

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    Coach Years W L T % W L T % W L T %
    Earl (Curly) Lambeau* 1921-49 209 104 21 .657 3 2 0 .600 212 106 21 .656
    Vince Lombardi 1959-67 89 29 4 .746 9 1 0 .900 98 30 4 .758
    Mike Holmgren 1992-98 75 37 0 .670 9 5 0 .643 84 42 0 .667
    Mike Sherman 2000-04 53 27 0 .663 2 4 0 .333 55 31 0 .640
    Bart Starr 1975-83 52 76 3 .408 1 1 0 .500 53 77 3 .410
    Dan Devine 1971-74 25 27 4 .482 0 1 0 .000 25 28 4 .474
    Forrest Gregg 1984-87 25 37 1 .405 0 0 0 .000 25 37 1 .405
    Lindy Infante 1988-91 24 40 0 .375 0 0 0 .000 24 40 0 .375
    Phil Bengtson 1968-70 20 21 1 .488 0 0 0 .000 20 21 1 .488
    Lisle Blackbourn 1954-57 17 31 0 .354 0 0 0 .000 17 31 0 .354
    Gene Ronzani** 1950-53 14 31 1 .315 0 0 0 .000 14 31 1 .315
    Ray Rhodes 1999 8 8 0 .500 0 0 0 .000 8 8 0 .500
    Ray (Scooter) McLean*** 1958 1 10 1 .125 0 0 0 .000 1 10 1 .125
    TOTALS 612 +480 36 .559 24 14 0 .632 636 +494 36 .561

    Sherman's only blight is post-season where his veteran QB has thrown record numbers of interceptions. Sorry, I like Brett, but his interception levels in key games under Sherman have been embarrassing.

    Here's another link:http://www.packers.com/history/record_book/nfl_postseason_comparison/

    Maybe you can compare the winning percentage of Mike Tice, Steve Mariucci, and Lovie Smith to Mike Sherman's record. Gee, haven't the Vikings won the Super Bowl every year?
  2. packedhouse01
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    packedhouse01 Cheesehead

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    I concur that Mike has had some success and that there are indications that he could be a pretty good coach. I also think he was overwhelmed with having both jobs. There are very few people who can do that and make it work. But I also believe that for all the emphasis Mike placees on team chemistry he doesn't do a very good job for the most on getting his team mentally ready to play. I don't see his teams as coming out fired up and playing with a high degree of intensity. Also Mike Sherman the GM didn't do Mike Sherman the coach any favors because he didn't provide himself with enough quality players via the draft that you need to have to build depth and competitiion for positions.

    Still I believe as many do, that he has a high upside and that only doing the coaching job will benefit him and his team.
  3. musccy
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    musccy Cheesehead

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    ph...I don't think you'll hear too many arguments about the GM position. Personally, I think he did a servicable job at GM, and many of his mistakes were ones that we can criticize only in hindsight (Joe J., Glenn, Nickerson, etc.). Just a bit too much for any one person to chew, but I too am excited to see what he can do just as head coach.
  4. DePack
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    DePack Cheesehead

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    net...exactly.....I posted something similar in response to chase's hate thread. Nobody wants to say it..... but Brett Favre's play is probably the biggest reason for the last 4 playoff losses. He has had awful games against St Louis,Atlanta, Philly and Minn. It happens....but don't lay all the blame on the coach.
  5. packedhouse01
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    packedhouse01 Cheesehead

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    I agree with you Depack. Brett simply has to play better in playoff games. He is too great a player to play with such reckless abanddon.
  6. net
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    net Cheesehead

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    My point is...and always has been...that Brett freaks out in playoff games. I saw some video last year of the Packers first Super Bowl under Holmgren and the Walrus was tearing him a new backside on the sidelines. Brett was so charged he was f-up. Holmgren took about two minutes to simply calm him down after screaming at him. It worked.

    In the loss to Atlanta, the Packers were competely wrecked by injuries, but in the other losses, Brett's interceptions were key factors. In the 4th and 26 game, few people remember it was Brett's ridiculous interception that ended Green Bay's chances after the Eagles tied it.

    Sherman isn't faultless by any stretch...and Brett is a Hall of Famer who will always be a favorite of mine...but you have to take the bitter with the better and any analysis of Sherman without factoring in the Brett stuff is off base.

    A former broadcaster friend and I both agreed that given Bart Starr and Brett Favre in a playoff game it would be Bart evertime. He simply never made mistakes in key situations.
  7. TOPackerFan
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    TOPackerFan Cheesehead

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    I think Mike Sherman's track record at GM is about to look a whole lot better. A bunch of the guys he picked have been hurt. Washington, Williams, Peterson, Kampman and Jenkins, who he signed as a street FA, are all going to come in and contribute at a high level. Barnett is poised for a big year under Bates, Joey Thomas is going to be a solid corner (though I think Caroll is likely a lost cause unless he grows up).

    Wait until you see some of these guys actually play and I think we'll be surprised about the eye MS actually had for talent.
  8. P@ck66
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    P@ck66 Banned Banned

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    i guess none of you guys EVER PLAYED THE GAME...because it seems very evident in your posts...

    (to blame Favre for those playoff game losses is ludicrous...)

    First of all, an offensive coach has to know how to call a game..that was something Holmgren knew how to do...and Rossley/Sherman do not have a clue...it's a little something called "strategy"..and out-thinking the other opponent....

    it's very simple...Brett Favre throws interceptions in a game, because the Packers are sooooo predictible that the other teams know what's coming...then Brett sees things not working...like receivers not getting open...and he presses...and tries to win it himself....which he is good enough to do..many times...but not all the time.

    once you become predictible in the play calling dept., the other team has your number, and there is very little that you can do against a good playoff caliber defense.

    you people who blame Brett just don't understand....he's the one who got you there!

    two words why mike sherman is still in GB: Brett Favre..net...Brett Favre...
  9. NDPackerFan
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    NDPackerFan Cheesehead

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    Hold on Pack66, don't question whether these people have played or not b/c you don't know jack about their experience, do you? I have played football in HS and College and KNOW that some of these posts are not way off the mark!

    I am a huge Packers fan and fan of #4 but you have to step away from the emotion and actually look at his playoff performances of late. They have been unacceptable and Favre would admit that. He did not give us a chance to win the last playoff game because he simply did not show up. Period. Look at his ridiculous run past the line of scrimmage right before the first half and then he flips the ball underhanded into the endzone. Remember SBXXXII? Elway leaped into about 3 or 4 Packers and got spun like a helicopter! Why? Passion to win at the moment. Favre could have done something similar there. OK, enough of my flaming post here because like I stated earlier, I'm a HUGE Favre fan and bigger Packers fan. I just don't like it when people try to take all blame off of him for losses in the playoffs because he was a contributing factor, probably moreso than anyone including Sherman.
  10. digsthepack
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    digsthepack Cheesehead

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    For once, I will agree with you 66. One of the great failings of Mike Sherman and his staff is the apparent awe with which they handle Brett Favre. More than anything else, Brett, more than most QBs in the league, requires firm handling to control his dark side...which is throwing the errant pass when he feels the HE needs to pull the game out...and that is often.

    I personally think Darrell Bevell has a bright future in the league, but is he the right guy at the right time to manage Favre? The answer is no. From the top down, this staff is so in awe of the man that they do not provide the TYPE of coaching he needs...which is aggressive and in his face.

    I will give Sherman the year to impress me, and likie I have said in the past, for all his fine qualities as a coach, Sherman's few weaknesses are killers, which often result in letting teams back into gamews and, giving a few away each year, IMHO.
  11. DePack
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    DePack Cheesehead

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    Pack66....our blind loyalty to Mike Sherman is only surpassed by your blind loyalty to Brett Favre. I've got no problem with that. I love Favre........but to suggest he hasn't played sh1tty in the above mentioned games really takes away any credibility you might have.

    And please don't start that "none of you have PLAYED THE GAME" crap. Most of us have...but none of us have PLAYED THE GAME or coached the game as much as Mike Sherman. Yet somehow.....you know more!
  12. NDPackerFan
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    About my post earlier. It came out the wrong way when I said Elway had passion at the moment to win the game. It sort of implies that Favre did not which I do not want to convey. I just think it was a ridiculous play and it kind of capsuled his performance of that particular game. My point is that Favre needs to take part of the responsibility (in fact, a pretty large part being the QB) for the recent playoff disappointments.

    I will exclude Atlanta because although he didn't play extremely well, that team was completely dessimated by injury IMHO.

    There, now I feel better. :D
  13. P@ck66
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    P@ck66 Banned Banned

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    that's the difference DePack in knowing football...

    you see Brett Favre playing sh!tty...i see the other team's defensive coach's outcoaching GB's offensive coaches....

    (has Favre had some bad games or made same bad throws?--absolutely, but less than you think)

    if Favre were to only take what he is given in these games that you speak of..then there would be alot of three and outs and punting going on, and the Packers would sbe dominated or controlled in a lot of these games by the opposing defenses because of Sherman/Rossely's poor play calling....(just like the viking playoff game last year!)

    it is the mere fact of Brett Favre's talent that wins these games..because he can make the throws that other qb's wouldn't dare try...is it risky? yes...does it sometimes backfire? yes...

    but you wouldn't be there without the man...so it's really hypocritical to criticize him like you do....and defend poor Sherman and Rossley...

    i say, give Favre the talent around him and someone who knows what the hell he's doing and how to call a game, and the Pack would be untouchable!

    like in 96'
  14. IPBprez
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    IPBprez Cheesehead

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    P@ck is partially hitting on something here - which has been chewed over constantly for the last month.. It takes a TEAM to win the Trophy.

    1) Did Sherman tend to leave Brett just sitting over on the bench (alone) quite often?

    <center> Answer: YES</center>

    2) Did Sherman bother to question Brett about what he's seeing out on the field?

    <center> Answer: NO</center>

    3)Was Mike Holmgren ever so isolating towards his Quarterback?

    <center> Answer: NO</center>

    Now -------

    Would Mike Sherman profit from imitating Mike Holmgren when it comes to interaction with the Quarterback - (no matter who he may be) - no matter which Team he's the Head Coach for?

    <center>Most Definitely --- YES</center>

    Count this along with a Fritz Shurmur (I don't need to micro manage your butt) Defense... and we have the stuff which takes us over to the Top ---

    Does this mean that possibly Tom Rossley would be less "in charge"...?

    Aaaah, who cares.... He's had four years to show us how little he cares for the Star QB of this Team. Sherman has already alluded to stepping into the Shoes as what Brett saw Holmgren wearing... so, the comfort zone should increase greatly.. and with that... the frustration factor of all other NFC North Teams combined.

    Mariucci will have to wait until Brett retires.
    Tice (?) will get fired over his in-ability to beat the Packers... :twisted:
    And, da Bears (???) - Well, I don't think we really need to re-hash their lack of success with Brett Favre do we? After all, all of the best stats at Soldier Field are OWNED by BRETT FAVRE! :shock: :-? :lol:
  15. TOPackerFan
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    66 Brett could hand the ball directly to the opposing defense and you'd find some way to blame Mike Sherman. You do exactly what you criticize others of doing, you see only what you want to see. I like Mike Sherman and I think to want to fire a guy for a .666 winning percentage is ludicrous. He has faults, but I ask you this, with whom would you replace him? I'm talking about available coaching candidates. I can't think of one I'd take over Sherman other than Belichik and he ain't going anywhere.
  16. CaliforniaCheez
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    CaliforniaCheez Cheesehead

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    I hope a better system is installed for challenges. I know he is listening on the headset to somebody but Sherman gets the blame for throwing the red flag.

    I also concur with the opinion that Brett needs some quality coaching of a calming and psychological nature.

    Some former coaches say he did not listen to them. Reality there is unknown.

    I do not know of a "West Coast offense" coach who would be better. Mairucci could be close.

    Just send Steel Wheels a PM. Sherman needs little defense.
  17. digsthepack
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    digsthepack Cheesehead

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    IPB....you mirror my thoughts, exactly. How often do you see Favre left alone on the bench with a stack of Polaroids to mull over? Very often. Where is the input, or if needed, the *** chewing from this coaching staff? Nowhere!

    Favre, for all his greatness, still needs to be reined in by capable coaches whom he trusts to say and do the right things. I do not feel he has ever had that under Mike Sherman's tenure as coach, and it is what he needs more than anything right now.

    The inopportune play calling and execution of this team makes Favre put the weight of the team on his shoulders, which leads to his mistakes. As a coach, I would be saying that, "this is a team sport, and we win and lose as a team", rather than, "Well, with a guy like Brett Favre, you are always in the game."

    The coaching staff puts so much pressure on this guy for the teams success that it has to become a distraction/burden at various times during the season.
  18. musccy
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    musccy Cheesehead

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    Another vote for Sherman et. al's main failing being the fear of Favre. I'm as much of a "Sherman apologist" as anyone, and I like Brett, but we all know he can play like crap at times, and Sherman and Bevell need to be able to lay into him the way Holmgren used to, or the way he layed into Carroll at camp.

    I know it's demeaning, and he's a veteran that deserves the utmost respect, but that doesn't mean he should be immune to criticism and instruction.
  19. DePack
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    I don't know how much time Sherman puts into coaching Favre. I do know that Favre respects Sherman and probably wouldn't have come back if Sherman wasn't there. Blame Sherman when he deserves it, he's gotten plenty of it. Just don't tell me that every Packer win is because of Favre and every Packer loss is because of Sherman, which is exactly what you are saying 66. Just read your post.

    BTW....don't start ragging on others playing experience or KNOWING the game. Conquering Madden 2005 in your parent's basement does not constitute expertise!
  20. digsthepack
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    digsthepack Cheesehead

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    DePack....your rapier-lik wit keeps me laughing regularly! How you doing as of late?
  21. DePack
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    DePack Cheesehead

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    digs....I've been busy. Spent a couple weeks in Fla for a baseball/vacation. Can't wait for training camp to open up. Hope all is well.
  22. P@ck66
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    P@ck66 Banned Banned

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    no, depack...that is not what i'm saying...

    i'm saying that Favre has won more games by being Brett Favre than MIke Sherman has by being Mike Sherman...he's also lost a few....

    I can't recall Sherman EVER outcoaching another team...(although I've seen plenty by Bellicheck and other coaches) , but i've seen Favre win games for the Pack that wouldn't have been won had the Packers had a different QB...

    take it however you like depack, but just because you have suggestive picture of Mike Sherman above your bed in a sexy pose that you gaze longingly at, doesn't mean that he's all that good a coach...not by a long shot.
  23. IPBprez
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    IPBprez Cheesehead

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    Would you call the whoopin the Patriots took at Sherman's hand in 2002 (?) a job of outcoaching...from Sherman?
  24. digsthepack
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    digsthepack Cheesehead

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    Hey 66...how about that Raven's game 3 or 4 years ago. Made that defense look silly!
  25. DePack
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    Great post 666. Keep up the good work. Your genius is shining through.


    BTW.....thanks for the visual. I find it hard to picture Sherman in a sexy pose but hey...to each their own. Who am I to judge?

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