Why James Campen must leave

[Dan115]

The Lions fired him. I do not know if he is still coaching.

 

[HardRightEdge]

EDS has been manhandled all PS long, hate to tell you. Lang's hand speed dropped, and it's caused his game to slip a bit, but he and Sitton are still good. Barclay is going to get straight up beat by a lot of guys this year. If only Newhouse wasn't useless.

That may be the case, but Rodger's seems to be doing less bailing or slipping and sliding around in the pocket to avoid guys in his face this preseason. Could be more 6 man blocking or more timing passes or less Saturday.

Barclay had help last season; I expect he'll need it again.

 

[FrankRizzo]

This particular area I think pizzes me off more than any others. Because: Thompson recognized the importance of the OL as he used #1 picks on OT Bulaga in 2010 and OT Sherrod in 2011.
These 2 guys should be a great bookend pair of OT's for years to come and Rodgers should have been blessed with a good OL, like the damn Niners have enjoyed for awhile now.

But we keep getting the *&%$#$^% luck everywhere, and thus this OL is forced to always be pieced together and guys keep getting moved around.

The Niners starting 5 OL last year missed a total of zero starts. I think the Vikings also.
Not so for us.

If Campen doesn't know how to teach the ZBS properly than it should be scrapped so these guys can run block better.
Why wasn't Alex Gibbs brought in if McCarthy wants to keep the ZBS so badly? Make it work, like in Houston and in Denver for so many years.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_23896374/broncos-glad-have-gibbs-ramirez-still-owns-job

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Gibbs

Alex Gibbs is a former NFL offensive line coach and former assistant NFL head coach.
He currently serves as an offensive line consultant for the Denver Broncos.

Gibbs is a well known proponent of the Zone Blocking scheme and popularized its use while he was Offensive line coach of the Denver Broncos.
Denver became famous at that time for its use of smaller, more agile offensive linemen and the success of its running backs, most notably Terrell Davis


ZONE BLOCKING SCHEME
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone_blocking

 

[Dan115]

I think McCarthy like Campen. Looks simple to me.

 

[HyponGrey]

Am I the only one who thinks blocking as a whole has suffered BECAUSE we're trying to teach run blocking? It aint something that happens overnight, and it's probably a year away. One wonders if the OL coach wants to change the system, why the GM hasn't drafted to change the system, or just replaced the OL coach?

 

[Kitten]

Am I the only one who thinks blocking as a whole has suffered BECAUSE we're trying to teach run blocking? It aint something that happens overnight, and it's probably a year away. One wonders if the OL coach wants to change the system, why the GM hasn't drafted to change the system, or just replaced the OL coach?

That is a very interesting point of view and a very good question.

This is for the most part a passing league, with the exception of a few teams, most of them just don't run the ball as much. Trying to teach run blocking isn't a bad thing and is far from obsolete but we need to be thinking pass protection, not run blocking in terms of where this league is at currently and where it's going to be in the future if this trend holds. Perhaps a system change for the O-Line is the solution as if you look at the Packers offense, we just don't run the ball that much to require that much run blocking.

I shake my head at this issue in its entirety but very good point, HytonGrey.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is I think teaching run blocking may be a wasted effort and our O-Line is suffering because of it if that makes any sense. It's not the teaching of that particular area of football it's that it's a rather futile thing to be focusing on in today's league. This post might bring out the run happy Packers fans I'm sorry if it offends your appreciation for the run game but as an observation, I think they need to be teaching pass protection over run blocking.

 

[GeeDogWarrior]

All the guys from draft picks to undrafted players seem to pick up the playbook and they all seem to be good at picking up blitzes and what not.

The coach I think is doing his job in that department, getting 'em all up to speed mentally on what their job is.

It's up to the players to man up and manhandle the men in front of 'em.

Give any coach Newhouse at Left Tackle for 2 years and Allen Barber for half a year with a pass happy play-caller and a QB who has a tendency to hold onto the ball for too long and any oline coach's resume will look bad.

 

[PackerFlatLander]

I agree Beightol was great but anyone paying even a little attention knows the ZBS wasn't ever Campen's idea.

Correct - it was all McCarthy's idea. But, Campen has no background in it, therefore has no business coaching it!

 

[TJV]

Correct - it was all McCarthy's idea. But, Campen has no background in it, therefore has no business coaching it!

That is also on McCarthy. As I and others have posted before, the minute Jags (the only Packers coach who had any experience in the ZBS - I believe he learned it from Alex Gibbs) informed McCarthy he was leaving for a college HC job, IMO McCarthy should have either hired Gibbs as a consultant (if available), hired another OL coach with experience in it, or scrapped it altogether. But the last person I would blame for the ZBS is Campen.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Correct - it was all McCarthy's idea. But, Campen has no background in it, therefore has no business coaching it!

Yet Edgar Bennett who had no history of coaching WRs doesn't get reamed because he has terrific players to coach at wide receiver. Campen knows as much about zone blocking as most in the NFL after coaching in the system for, what, 7 years? Fact is that our offensive line hasn't exactly been blessed with stellar players. Not a single player has moved on from Campen's coaching and done better elsewhere. Giacomini is Seattle's Newhouse so please don't say he's improved. Now, if someone could point out players that were disappointments in Green Bay but then excelled elsewhere then there'd be an argument.

 

[12theTruth]

The coach I think is doing his job in that department, getting 'em all up to speed mentally on what their job is.

It's up to the players to man up and manhandle the men in front of 'em.

If the Packers offensive line was mentally sufficient and or proficient in providing the requisite knowledge why did we see so many times the Packers fail in short yardage obvious running downs. The Packers are basically horrible in this area and we saw many mental errors by the lineman. Campen will certainly have a long leash due to the fact he is McCarthy's good friend but ultimately results may do him in.

 

[12theTruth]

Yet Edgar Bennett who had no history of coaching WRs doesn't get reamed because he has terrific players to coach at wide receiver. Campen knows as much about zone blocking as most in the NFL after coaching in the system for, what, 7 years? Fact is that our offensive line hasn't exactly been blessed with stellar players. Not a single player has moved on from Campen's coaching and done better elsewhere. Giacomini is Seattle's Newhouse so please don't say he's improved. Now, if someone could point out players that were disappointments in Green Bay but then excelled elsewhere then there'd be an argument.

Bennett has only coached WR for two years while Campen is going on his 7th season as offensive line coach. It really is about the overall competency of the group and production of said group. The line seems to perennial team weakness while the WR group is a strength. 7 years with the same position coach and we are still seeing some huge deficiencies in certain aspects of the offensive line irrespective of the talent that has manned the line. In a couple seasons we will see the true impact Bennett has on the WR's in the way of developing rookies, etc.

 

[TJV]

If the Packers offensive line was mentally sufficient and or proficient in providing the requisite knowledge why did we see so many times the Packers fail in short yardage obvious running downs. The Packers are basically horrible in this area and we saw many mental errors by the lineman.

Campen was promoted to OL coach in 2007, the year John Kuhn joined the Packers. Kuhn in his Packers career has converted 20 of 27 attempts on third and 1 or fourth and 1 (74%) and in 2010 he converted 10 of 12 of those opportunities ranking third among NFL backs with at least 10 attempts. Again, I’m not saying Campen is a great coach but I’ve seen you mention this a couple of times and it “forced” me to look up Kuhn’s stats in short yardage.

Bennett has only coached WR for two years while Campen is going on his 7th season as offensive line coach. It really is about the overall competency of the group and production of said group. The line seems to perennial team weakness while the WR group is a strength. 7 years with the same position coach and we are still seeing some huge deficiencies in certain aspects of the offensive line irrespective of the talent that has manned the line. In a couple seasons we will see the true impact Bennett has on the WR's in the way of developing rookies, etc.

“Irrespective of the talent” is where you go wrong IMO and using the WR group as an example further weakens your argument. Other than Rodgers alone at QB, no group has been infused with more talent than the WR group. Sunshinepacker has made the point a couple of times that we are not seeing OL suddenly succeed after they leave Green Bay: Why do you suppose that is?

 

[Dan115]

Yet Edgar Bennett who had no history of coaching WRs doesn't get reamed because he has terrific players to coach at wide receiver. Campen knows as much about zone blocking as most in the NFL after coaching in the system for, what, 7 years? Fact is that our offensive line hasn't exactly been blessed with stellar players. Not a single player has moved on from Campen's coaching and done better elsewhere. Giacomini is Seattle's Newhouse so please don't say he's improved. Now, if someone could point out players that were disappointments in Green Bay but then excelled elsewhere then there'd be an argument.

Kurt Warner

 

[JBlood]

From what I have read, the Packers employ both zone blocking and power blocking schemes depending upon the play called. This would fit in with the "Renaissance man" philosophy of having offensive linemen able to play all positions-- and with various blocking techniques. There are probably a few linemen out there capable of doing so, but I suspect we would be better off with starters that are very, very good at one position using one blocking scheme. If this is MM's mandate, then I'm starting to give Campen some slack. If he's been given the job of developing utility players to compete with NFL defensive specialists, that's a very difficult assignment for any coach.

 

[Dan115]

I heard they like to draft people who have played LT in college.

 

[Oshkoshpackfan]

holy old thread revival batman!!!

This thread is so old, it owes Jesus $5 bucks

 

[lambeaulambo]

That is a very interesting point of view and a very good question.

This is for the most part a passing league, with the exception of a few teams, most of them just don't run the ball as much. Trying to teach run blocking isn't a bad thing and is far from obsolete but we need to be thinking pass protection, not run blocking in terms of where this league is at currently and where it's going to be in the future if this trend holds. Perhaps a system change for the O-Line is the solution as if you look at the Packers offense, we just don't run the ball that much to require that much run blocking.

I shake my head at this issue in its entirety but very good point, HytonGrey.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is I think teaching run blocking may be a wasted effort and our O-Line is suffering because of it if that makes any sense. It's not the teaching of that particular area of football it's that it's a rather futile thing to be focusing on in today's league. This post might bring out the run happy Packers fans I'm sorry if it offends your appreciation for the run game but as an observation, I think they need to be teaching pass protection over run blocking.

So fathom this - the packers line opening up some holes and gashing teams. Pretty soon the D playing them starts to creep up to stop the run and Rodgers cooks them for an 80 yard td pass. That is why balance on offense, ie run and pass, makes the packers so much more lethal on offense. The run will open up the pass. Just passing in the NFL is defensible due to no threat of a running game. The Packers have GOT to start preaching the importance of some semblance of a running game, or they are predictable.

 

[HyponGrey]

They've been preaching all offseason. Unfortunately putting that into practice isn't so simple. Stupid practice, thinks its soooo complicated...

 

[PackerFlatLander]

I agree Beightol was great but anyone paying even a little attention knows the ZBS wasn't ever Campen's idea.

You're right - it wasn't Campen's idea. It doesn't matter. The Broncos of '97 and '98 are the only ZBS-specific team to ever win the Super Bowl and that's only because they had Alex Gibbs who invented it, as their o-line coach. They also got lucky and had the exact perfect linemen to run it. It can't be repeated. It's a junk, garbage philosophy and system and it should be banned - it ruins guy's careers with these cut blocks.

The big thing about the ZBS, is that it's all about this "one cut and go" crap for the running back. What the hell is that??? Running the ball should be purely instinct and should go where the hole or path leads it, regardless of how many damn cuts the back has to take.

 

[HyponGrey]

You're right - it wasn't Campen's idea. It doesn't matter. The Broncos of '97 and '98 are the only ZBS-specific team to ever win the Super Bowl and that's only because they had Alex Gibbs who invented it, as their o-line coach. They also got lucky and had the exact perfect linemen to run it. It can't be repeated. It's a junk, garbage philosophy and system and it should be banned - it ruins guy's careers with these cut blocks.

The big thing about the ZBS, is that it's all about this "one cut and go" crap for the running back. What the hell is that??? Running the ball should be purely instinct and should go where the hole or path leads it, regardless of how many damn cuts the back has to take.

We won a Superbowl running a ZBS, and we don't cut block.

The idea of "one cut and go" is that a hole/path will open, and all the back will have to do is cut once and run to daylight. Lacy just missed a few seams that he didn't feel coming last week. A bit more time behind this line and he'll instinctively know where those holes are going to open and be ready to hit them right as they form.

 

[El Guapo]

We won a Superbowl running a ZBS, and we don't cut block

Winner!!!!

 

[Bus Cook]

Tauscher 7th
Clifton 2nd
Wells 7th
wahle 2nd
Rivera 6th

They had a little success and weren't all high pics. As I see it.
TT - drafts average people at best
MM - Puts in the ZBS that either doesn't work or no one wants
Campen - Can't turn a pigs ear into a silk purse in a barnyard system.