Who stood out..who didn't at minicamp...

[TomAllen]

Who stood out, and who didn't, at minicamps and OTAs
Posted: June 21, 2006


Cliff Christl
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Green Bay - The Green Bay Packers' off-season workouts are over. Thirty-seven days from now, training camp starts. In 81 days, the Packers will open the season against the Chicago Bears.

Will they be a better team than last year when they plummeted to 4-12, their worst record in 14 years? Do they have a shot at being a playoff contender in Mike McCarthy's first year as coach?

Or will their skid continue?

It will be some time before those questions are answered, but it was possible to get some early reads from the 14 OTAs and two minicamps.

On the plus side, the Packers appear to have improved the infrastructure of their roster with several draft picks and unheralded free agents. At this point, none of the five players drafted in the first three rounds seems to have been a reach and all could compete for playing time. There also were some young returning veterans who seem to be developing into better players.

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On the flip side, the question that should raise the most concern at this point is this: Who is going to score touchdowns for this team?

Here's a position-by-position analysis of the off-season workouts:

Wide Receiver: Other than Donald Driver, no receiver stood out. Rod Gardner and Robert Ferguson flashed early, but then disappeared. Part of it might have been that they missed some practice time, but even when they were making occasional plays, they didn't look anything special.

It wouldn't be a stretch to say that second-round pick Greg Jennings and first-year free agent Ruvell Martin looked better than any receiver other than Driver.

Veteran newcomer Marc Boerigter is an inviting target and Brett Favre seems to look for him, but Boerigter doesn't seem to make the tough catch with any consistency.

The same could be said for Martin.

Fourth-round choice Cory Rodgers and Jennings probably are better than the other rookies at beating bump coverage, but Rodgers didn't make many plays.

Rookie free agent Chris Francies from Texas-El Paso came on strong over the last few days. Fellow free agent rookie Leo Bookman, the converted track star, has burning speed, but probably the worst hands of the group. Chad Lucas, who starred in NFL Europe, got a late start and was pretty much shut out in team drills.

Tight End: As he has in the past, David Martin showed the potential to make plays down the seam. But in five years that potential has never translated into production.

Tory Humphrey stood out as an athlete last year before he got cut and did so again, but the consistency doesn't seem to be there yet. All Zac Alcorn, a rookie free agent from Black Hills State, did was catch the ball every time he got the chance. He might be sneaky fast, too.

Offensive Line: It appears that rookies Daryn Colledge and Jason Spitz could be the starting guards. Based on the one-on-one pass blocking drills, they both need work on their pass protection. But they appear to be good athletes and they both might have a nasty side that will more likely surface when the pads go on.

Athletically, Junius Coston is in the same category, but he might need even more work in pass protection.

William Whitticker didn't embarrass himself at left tackle even when he went against Kabeer Gbaja-Biamilia in pass protection. Tackle seems to be his best position and pass protection seems to be his strength. Thus, he has a shot to make it as a backup.

Rookie free agent Josh Bourke (6-7, 314) of Grand Valley State seemed to show more promise than fifth-round pick Tony Moll (6-5, 308). By the end of the OTAs, Bourke was playing the more difficult left tackle position and Moll was playing on the right side.

Scott Wells looks more comfortable at center and might be ready to take a big step forward. To me, backup center Chris White looked better last year.

Quarterback: When former NFL MVP Rich Gannon was in camp for a day, he said when quarterbacks start to show their age, their throwing arm and their legs go first. And he said he doesn't think Favre has lost either at age 36.

On his last day in camp, Favre completed 17 of 27 passes with at least three drops. He almost looked in regular-season form.

"I thought he had three throws in a row where the ball was really starting to spit off his fingers," coach Mike McCarthy said after the workout.

Aaron Rodgers has dropped his release and looks more natural throwing the ball. He says the game is slowing down for him. And he moves in the pocket maybe better than advertised.

But he was inconsistent. And on the days when Favre missed, the No. 1 offense usually sputtered with Rodgers at the control. In fact, there were stretches where it looked downright ugly.

Rodgers had a number of passes tipped at the line, although McCarthy said that could be a protection problem as much as anything. Rodgers' accuracy on the deep ball also remains suspect.

Fifth-round pick Ingle Martin received a lot of individual attention from McCarthy, but about the kindest thing that could be said about him is that he's a work in progress. Free agents Tom Arth and Brian Wrobel hardly took any snaps.

Running Back: The new staff seems to like Noah Herron and he seemed to get more opportunity than Samkon Gado as the OTAs unfolded. But it's hard to see where Herron is anything more than a try-hard guy.

The Packers seem to be banking on Ahman Green making a full recovery from his thigh surgery. In fact, their season might hinge it.

Najeh Davenport, who is coming off ankle surgery, said he would be ready to go at the start of camp. Green said several weeks ago that he might not return until later in camp.

Ben Brown, a rookie free agent from Tabor College, is raw as raw can be, but he's also a load at 6-1, 246 and received some snaps at tailback. A.J. Cooper, another free agent rookie from North Dakota State, catches the ball better than backup fullback Vonta Leach, the player he'll be trying to beat out.

Defensive Line: Fourteen defensive linemen participated in at least some of the OTAs. They all were healthy. They all were able to keep pace in the early practice conditioning drills. And essentially they're all blue-collar type players. That was all a departure from the recent past when the Packers hinged their hopes on too many aging veterans with injury and motivational issues.

Maybe there are no potential all-pros in the bunch, but there appear to be plenty of candidates to compete for playing time in a seven-, eight-man rotation.

Defensive tackle Kenderick Allen (6-5, 328) slowly worked his way into shape and could become a force in the running game. Of the returning veterans, Corey Williams showed signs of maybe taking another step forward. But it's hard to get a read on defensive linemen until they start wearing pads.

Jerome Nichols, another NFL Europe product, is built along the same lines as Cullen Jenkins and has some of the same qualities, notably the quick-twitch movements that allow him to put some pressure on the quarterback.

Linebacker: No. 1 draft pick A.J. Hawk's athletic ability was apparent. And third-round pick Abdul Hodge looks like someone anxious to stick his nose in the middle of the action and also seems to be a better athlete than his pre-draft workouts suggested.

That alone could make for a huge upgrade.

Ben Taylor could be a solid addition. He seems to have separated himself from Roy Manning, another candidate at strong-side linebacker. Four-year veteran Tracy White probably looked better than Manning, too.

Defensive Back: With starting corners Charles Woodson and Al Harris skipping the OTAs, the Packers were thin on cornerbacks. But their young returning prospects - Ahmad Carroll, Mike Hawkins, Jerron Wishom and Jason Horton, in particular - all had their moments. In truth, even the Packers' second-line corners outplayed the team's frontline receivers, for the most part.

So far, Carroll looks to be the most improved. He got beat his share of times, but he played the ball better than ever and made some big plays.

Hawkins' closing speed still jumps out at times.

Fourth-round pick Will Blackmon missed the OTAs with a broken foot, but impressed in minicamps before suffering his injury.

Tra Boger, a rookie free agent from Tulane, is an intriguing prospect. And second-year safety Marviel Underwood showed more ball awareness than a year ago.

Specialists: Jon Ryan has taken a clear lead over B.J. Sander, but that doesn't mean he has won the job. Ryan still needs to improve his get-off time, hang time and consistency.

Billy Cundiff might have taken a lead on Dave Rayner in the kicking competition, but that appears far from settled.

 

[thetombradyhater]

welcometo the board tom

 

[all about da packers]

Thanks Tom, and welcome to the site.

Boy, I have high hopes for Ferggy this season, looks like I might be wrong already.

 

[pyledriver80]

Thanks Tom, and welcome to the site.

Boy, I have high hopes for Ferggy this season, looks like I might be wrong already.

I gave up on having high hopes for Fergy last year. I hope they just move on and let Fergy go. He just doesn't appear to be the WR that people thought he had the potential to be

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Thanks Tom, and welcome to the site.

Boy, I have high hopes for Ferggy this season, looks like I might be wrong already.

I gave up on having high hopes for Fergy last year. I hope they just move on and let Fergy go. He just doesn't appear to be the WR that people thought he had the potential to be

Unfortunately we don't have the depth to cut Fergy. We need our rookies WRs to develop quickly before letting Fergy go.

 

[tromadz]

It sounds like our team is in good shape.

Even the running game, which sounded bad there, will pan out. You should know damn well 1 of the following will do a good job: Ahman Green, Najeh Davenport, Samkon Gado, Noah Herron, Ben Brown.

Spitz stealing the RG job surprised me, cuz it sounded like Coston was gonna yoink it. I am curious to see Spitz and Colledge with pads on in July. Colledge\Wells\Spitz is a young interior, but that doesn't mean it will stink all year (but im sure there will be moments). Also, their weaknesses sounded to be pass protection at this point, which makes Favre-Lovers shudder. However, this years offense is run-heavy(according to mccarthy and jags, but what do they know? jerks.), and they sound very capable of handling that load.

WR sounds like a bit of concern, but with camp, there will be less playing hooky, so someone HAS to step up! They just have to!

I am anxious to see Carroll live up to the hype...again. I heard all this when he was drafted. He was so "fast." Oh, how he "flashed." Uh huh, I hope its true this time though, but I am not counting on it.

A-rod sounds horrible! Yikes. Ingle doesnt sound much better. Lets hope that changes with time, and Favre plays for another 26 years.

 

[TomAllen]

(Thanks for the welcome.)

I don't know. This assessment didn't sound too positive to me. I'm worried about the receiving corps, the offensive line, and the RB's. But I hope things pan out.

Favre lovers? What's up with that? Speaking of which, there was a good interview with Favre on Mike and the Mad Dog today. Total team player. He said he will never play for another team than Green Bay. I don't understand people who like to attack or blame Favre, for whatever reason.

 

[DePack]

trom.....this years offense will probably be dictated by the score of the game. By that I mean if we are ahead or close it may very well be run-heavy but if we fall behind these guys will need to be able to pass block. That said, I'm not TOO worried about passblocking at this point. It always takes longer for a new line to get down the pass blocking than the runblocking. There is time for them to get it right as long as they stay healthy and can play together all pre-season.

 

[tromadz]

depack, im going by what coaches of the green bay packers said. Your opinion.. is just that. thats why we're here!

Sherman abandoned the run game faster than a deadbeat dad leaves his daughter at a carnival to get a skanky piece of ***....and it was disgusting(as my analogy).

"if we fall behind.." we will still run the ball. That is the point. Unless we're down 13 with under 6 minutes in the game, the gameplan will probably still be in order(from what MM\JJ have said). A quick TD in the first quarter by the opposition would have Sherman throwing away the run game.

With that said, I am worried about the pass blocking, but not as much as if the passing game was our #1 priority on offense. Running is, and our run blocking is good. But with a month till training camp, with working out, studying, individual time...the picture will be more clear then.

 

[DePack]

Sigh.....I wasn't starting anything here and yes it is my opinion. Thanks for pointing that out. However my opinion is based on facts.

As much as you love to rip Sherman for abandoning the run game it is not based on facts.

Fact: Brett Favre has averaged 34.4 passes per game in his career.

Fact: Brett Favre averaged 34.4 passes per game under Holmgren.

Fact: Brett Favre averaged 33.9 passes per game under Mike Sherman.


He averaged about 38 passes a game last season because we were behind so much and lost all our running backs. So you can see from the facts that Sherman didn't abandon the run during his career. Last season's passing was because of the game situations as mentioned in my previous post.

 

[pyledriver80]

Yes, that assessment was very negative, but, may not be far from the truth. It's funny that outside of Packer nation, most people think this team will stink.

I can't think of many years that I actually went into the year thinking we were going to go 4-12 or 5-11. Every team in the NFL thinks best case a super bowl run and worst case 7-9. I live in Ohio and people state the Browns are going to the playoffs even though the rest of the world predicts a dismal season.


I am just trying to be objective and look at it from the outside. There may be a reason everyone on the outside thinks this team will be lousy, because maybe they just will.

In my opinion our defense is our strength, but without the D-line, THE WEAK SPOT, getting pressure on the QB the rest of the defense will have to play thier assses off to make this a top 5 defense. If this team has any chance it has to be a Defensive juggernaut, not just really good.


On Offense, I think we are in bad shape. I love Brett but he has had the luxury of a solid line for the majority of his career. He can't do it with young recievers and no time to throw the ball. The run game seems ok to me but as DePack said if we are down by 14 in the fouth quarter, we are going to have to air it out. I believe the run sets up the pass and vice versa, but both are as as important as the other. GB may try to poundthe ball but if opposing coordinators know that they will take it away. In fact with a bunch of rookies it will be an easy task.


Throw in a HORRID special teams squad and maybe this team IS just not that good. It's hard to swallow, but completety understandable if we all take off our cheeseheads.

 

[all about da packers]

Trom and DePack, I think you both contribute to a the answer.

It was a cycle, the RB's got injured, no adequate replacement/bad o-line play, which caused Packers to fall behind and end up needing to get big gains in short amount of time all led to a travesty of a run game.

I think the wildcard in all this is Green, becasue if he does come back healthy like before, we'll be good to go. But that is a big if. That being said, TT and MM aren't idiots, they wouldn't have relied on Green so much unless they knew to a high degree of probability that he would come back to old form.

 

[TomAllen]

Sigh.....I wasn't starting anything here and yes it is my opinion. Thanks for pointing that out. However my opinion is based on facts.

As much as you love to rip Sherman for abandoning the run game it is not based on facts.

Fact: Brett Favre has averaged 34.4 passes per game in his career.

Fact: Brett Favre averaged 34.4 passes per game under Holmgren.

Fact: Brett Favre averaged 33.9 passes per game under Mike Sherman.


He averaged about 38 passes a game last season because we were behind so much and lost all our running backs. So you can see from the facts that Sherman didn't abandon the run during his career. Last season's passing was because of the game situations as mentioned in my previous post.

This post makes alot of sense. Good post.

 

[longtimefan]

I see what Trom is saying bout Sherman and the running game...

It did seem at certain times of some games that the running game was gone, even when they were not down by a lot, it just seemed like he dumped it for what ever reason..

I think you would agree with that statement right?

I was suprised to see those stats about the running game Depack..Here is some more...

Sherman teams on avg per game 27 rushes

M.H 27 rushes per game

That is amazing to me..

 

[tromadz]

Does anyone else wanna handle this one? I know I am not the only person who watched (almost) every game last year, and watch the running game get thrown right out the window early on.

Why is everything _______ vs ________ with you? I don't care that it is sherman who did it. The run game was abandoned. I think Ahman had one 20+rush attempt game before he was out for the year.

We lost 5 games by 3-points or less, it's not like we were down 21 points and needed to pass. There was no reason to do that. Near the end of the year, Gado got more carries, and guess what...he got a lot of yards!

With a guy like Ahman, who takes time to heat up, he would get shut down by the coaches before he could even get that far.

"He averaged about 38 passes a game last season because we were behind so much" ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? We lost 5 games by 3 points or less!

He threw it 51 times AND 58 times vs Chicago(the best defense in the league, with arguably the worst o-line in the league in GB, with no good WRs except DD).

51 times!

In the 4 wins last year, Favre averaged 33.5 attempts.
In the 12 losses last year, Favre averaged 39.4 attempts.

Whatever. Sherman is gone, new coaches in, who appear(appear) to know what they're doing and how to handle things(if it works out, is another story).

My point is(which isnt to bash the shermhead), the run game is important to this years team, and the coaches dont appear to be the type to throw it away as quick as (i think) sherm did. Also, the fact that our young guards seem to do better at run blocking than pass blocking, is good, since running is the offenses priority. I am concerned about the pass blocking, I dont wanna see Favre get laid out play after play (I was at the Chicago\GB game at soldier field, and watched that man get destroyed...), and hopefully that will improve when the pads come on in July.

this isnt about me vs. sherm, or me vs. you,depack. This is about me looking at the team, and coming to conclusions off of past statistics, and what our current coaches say about the scheme.

edit - we are kinda hijacking this thread, which is about who showed up at camp, so if you wanna continue this, we can PM eachother?...before AADP comes in and lays the hammer down?

 

[all about da packers]

I don't know why people are so surprised that Sherman had an attack similar to MH. Sherman did indeed run the WCO, similarly to MH. The MAJOR difference was that Sherman was a lot more open to having long bombs when compared to MH.

 

[longtimefan]

trom.....this years offense will probably be dictated by the score of the game. By that I mean if we are ahead or close it may very well be run-heavy but if we fall behind these guys will need to be able to pass block.

Could u not say that about every team in the nfl?

 

[TomAllen]

True, though he didn't have the receivers to execute the long bombs once Javon went down. Oh well.

 

[tromadz]

its about knowing who you have, which is another thing that bothered me last year.

No WRs
No good o-line
No extra blockers on most passing plays

Lets pass it, Brett! Make it work!

As a huge favre fan, guys like depack should be happy this happened. God, watching Favre get destroyed was torture.

Empty backfields on 3rd and longs were crazy. and those who were in gameday chats with me know i called it out, i pointed it out, i made it known. I also called out the pulling of guards, and how they failed horribly, cuz our guards just werent good enough. not entirely their fault, but the coaches not knowing what their players are and are not capable of. ARGH!

SORRY! I WONT RESPOND TO ANYMORE!SFSHDLKJH!

 

[pyledriver80]

Thanks for the surprising stats DePack. I think Sherman abandoned the run early but it was so ineffective that it didn't really matter. It's not like he abandoned a successful running game. If I had Brett Favre at QB and couldn't pick up 3 yards on the ground I would throw it to.

Trom, DePack is right about the passing game. We did lose several close games but most of those were from the Packers throwing the ball to get it close at the end. If we wouldn't have thrown the ball we would have lost by 10 or 17 instead of 3.


Shermans coaching style did not frustrate me as much as most other NFL coaches. Injuries killed this team last year along with the hideous O-line. Again I blame TT for letting Wahle and Rivera go, with no real plan to replace them. Combine a ugly offensive line with 4th string backups and 4-12 is what you get. No Play calling in the world is going to make that successful.

 

[tromadz]

but...aren't you a coach?

are you saying that you should abandon the running game(even if it does indeed suck) and become 1-dimensional, and just take away the guessing game for the defense, and let them know "yeah, we're passing...again, cuz we stopped doing that in the first quarter when Ahman couldnt do crap...which is how he always has been his entire career."

I like how my stats were ignored. Convenient.

If you're gonna go heavy in one area(pass or run) you better be GOOD at it. 29 ints? Yes, not all his fault, we know that. But...Favre can't block for Favre. Favre can't catch for Favre. It was horrible.

 

[TomAllen]

So basically what you all seem to be saying is that there was nothing, or not much, Favre could do last year with the state of the Packer team--except maybe wing it up there and pray for a miracle?

 

[pyledriver80]

Why is everything _______ vs ________ with you?

And Then.........

I like how my stats were ignored. Convenient.

You can't ignore DePack's facts and then expect people to take yours into consideration.



Let me try to explain this to you Trom, and I am not being rude or conceited. As a coach if you come out with a gameplan to run the ball and you run it 10 times for 15 yards you think to yourself "I need to loosen up the run defense." This is accomplished by throwing the ball.

So now you throw the ball hoping to take advantage of the Defenses aggressiveness. MS threw the ball and even if it was successful it still would not open up the run game. Do you know why? Because it wasn't an aggressive Defense stopping the run, it was horrid O-line play. A high school team could have shut down the Packers run game last year especially early on.


Just like the run sets up the pass the pass sets up the run. We could not set up the pass because we had no running game and we could not set up the run because the O-Line stunk, thus not opening up the pass game.


If both are ineffective you use the pass more because you can use dump-offs and screens as well as deeper routes giving you at least a resemblence of a 2 option offense.

 

[tromadz]

he did what he did. he was the gunslinger, and when you gunsling with no WRs, no oline, and an abandoned run game, you throw 29 ints. Could he have pulled back and not thrown some of them, damn straight! But thats not what favre does. So thats why the team had to improve the line (which it appears to, even though its still not near ideal) and some WRs(a lot of average depth, no gamebreakers, but guys who are pros at least, not practice squad jobbers), and a run game(good run blocking guards, and najeh,ahman,samkon,herron)

Things will be easier for Favre this year, thank god. But if I see the line being abused(which could happen at times no doubt), and empty backfield sets WHILE thats happening, I will be calling for McCarthys job, JUST like I did Shermans.

 

[Timmons]

Depacks stats about how many times Brett threw the ball has NOTHING to do with how soon we abandoned the running game. How about listing how many running attempts were had per game.

I believe Sherman abandoned the run early and often, and for all the wrong reasons. The stat of 33 attempts per game doesn't mean anything with the knowledge of downs of possession were had each game. Brett threw 29 ints last year, of course his passing attempts will seem low! the other team had the damn ball.

The best thing that happened to Sherman's stint was Brett's broken thumb, we were forced to run the ball and we ran it well.

Back on topic. Pooey about Fergie. I too was hoping that someday he'd be somebody. I am going to state my predictions for the year of 6-10.