When Woodson comes back, T. Williams should be benched...

[PackFanNChiTown]

Two years ago, he was basically playing with one arm.

Think that was last year, he was outstanding in 2010.

Can't see them moving Woodson back into the starting CB position, with his age and history of injuries they NEED to find his replacement in the offseason.

 

[Southpaw]

Hayward let the guy run right past him because he thought Ponder was going to run his way with it. It was a classic blown coverage.

He's a rookie. It's understandable. Not necessarily excusable. Tramon is in his what? 4th season? Come on now.

Alas though, we expect too much from Tramon. Usually undrafted players go undrafted for a reason. But a lot of fans like to look at one game or a few games and hold that player to those expectations all the time.

 

[GreenBlood]

Think that was last year, he was outstanding in 2010.

Can't see them moving Woodson back into the starting CB position, with his age and history of injuries they NEED to find his replacement in the offseason.

Between Shields, Hayward, House and Williams I'm pretty sure his replacement is already on the roster. I think Hayward is the #1 guy next year and the other three could find themselves in any order from #2 to dime back.

 

[FrankRizzo]

So do the people disliking my post think Saturday should have not been benched or what? House is injured or he should be playing in place of Tramon. Plain and simple.

Because Woodson hasn't been able to cover good WRs down the field for a few years.... like Tramon does.
You say Tramon is riding his 2010 playoff run, but he played good this year, and Woodson hasn't been able to cover people without holding them for about 3, 4 years now.

Woodson can help at safety though because he's so smart.

 

[HyponGrey]

I'll agree that Tramon should be benched, but for one reason and one reason alone, and its not that he can't play the position. In the beginning of the year MM said that the guys that tackled would be the guys that play, if you don't tackle, you don't play. As a coach, you have to stick to your word, any detriment caused to the team is the direct fault of the benched player at that point.

 

[Alex]

I'll agree that Tramon should be benched, but for one reason and one reason alone, and its not that he can't play the position. In the beginning of the year MM said that the guys that tackled would be the guys that play, if you don't tackle, you don't play. As a coach, you have to stick to your word, any detriment caused to the team is the direct fault of the benched player at that point.

I'd like to believe that but if he isn't benching Crosby no one is getting benched for anything they do. While McCarthy is a good coach there's a lot of things about him that bother me, especially today.

 

[HyponGrey]

I'd like to believe that but if he isn't benching Crosby no one is getting benched for anything they do. While McCarthy is a good coach there's a lot of things about him that bother me, especially today.

This was an issue he specifically called out the team for at the beginning of the year. While I don't think anybody will hit the bench, I can't say I'd be surprised.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Between Shields, Hayward, House and Williams I'm pretty sure his replacement is already on the roster. I think Hayward is the #1 guy next year and the other three could find themselves in any order from #2 to dime back.

Hayward is too slow to play on the island. He's your nickel corner.

 

[GreenBlood]

Hayward is too slow to play on the island. He's your nickel corner.

Since when? He's done fine when he's played CB. Playing CB is more than raw speed. It's the ability to anticipate and react. If a guy runs a 4.2 he's going to be a lousy CB if his reaction time is slow and he can't make good cuts.

 

[HyponGrey]

Since when? He's done fine when he's played CB. Playing CB is more than raw speed. It's the ability to anticipate and react. If a guy runs a 4.2 he's going to be a lousy CB if his reaction time is slow and he can't make good cuts.

Hayward got burned in the slot by Wright on a TD throw. Speed can be a factor

 

[GreenBlood]

Hayward got burned in the slot by Wright on a TD throw. Speed can be a factor

It's only one of many though. You don't just automatically put the fastest guy at CB. Devon Hester is wicked fast. He's a horrible CB.

 

[Mr. StyleZ]

Hayward is too slow to play on the island. He's your nickel corner.

Casey Hayward is faster than Tramon.. so now what?

A brief google search showed that..

Hayward:4.57 40
Williams: 4.59 40

 

[burt packerack]

Quickness and agility is more important than speed at corner. You need to be able to twist your hips and make breaks faster to keep up with the receiver.

 

[NorthWestCheeseHead]

Casey Hayward is faster than Tramon.. so now what?
A brief Google search showed that..
Hayward:4.57 40
Williams: 4.59 40

I know this reflects the prevailing wisdom since they time the 40 at the combine and all. But I don't really find the 40 time to be the end all when it comes to determining speed. It is just a strait line dash, only WR route that reflects that is a streak really, everything else has some sort of cut or juke to it. How fast can they follow a WR through those cuts? How fast is their closing speed? Etc.

I don't know, I just wouldn't point to 40 time as the definitive representation of how "fast" someone is.

 

[longtimefan]

I know this reflects the prevailing wisdom since they time the 40 at the combine and all. But I don't really find the 40 time to be the end all when it comes to determining speed. It is just a strait line dash, only WR route that reflects that is a streak really, everything else has some sort of cut or juke to it. How fast can they follow a WR through those cuts? How fast is their closing speed? Etc.

I don't know, I just wouldn't point to 40 time as the definitive representation of how "fast" someone is.

For me 40's just say how fast he is..I think the cone and other agility tests give better indication of his talent

 

[7thFloorRA]

I would rather have a slower guy who is consistently in the correct position than a fast guy who has to rely on his speed to recover from being in the wrong position.

As far as Tramon and most of the other D-backs. Would MM please take them to the olympic training center in the off season and have them schooled on basic wrestling technique. Once they learn the concept of a double leg take down and how to gain body leverage and a mechanical advantage they might finally understand some basic concepts of tackling.

 

[HyponGrey]

I would rather have a slower guy who is consistently in the correct position than a fast guy who has to rely on his speed to recover from being in the wrong position.

As far as Tramon and most of the other D-backs. Would MM please take them to the olympic training center in the off season and have them schooled on basic wrestling technique. Once they learn the concept of a double leg take down and how to gain body leverage and a mechanical advantage they might finally understand some basic concepts of tackling.

Thought the leg whip was illegal

 

[HardRightEdge]

Casey Hayward is faster than Tramon.. so now what?

A brief google search showed that..

Hayward:4.57 40
Williams: 4.59 40

Williams field speed is much higher than that number. Heyward, not so much.

"Nickel corner" is not a pejorative, by the way. Taking 70% of the snaps makes it a "starting position", more so than Pickett. To say he's not fast enough to play the island has nothing to do with his other talents.

 

[Harrison McCaslin]

For poor performance, just like Saturday was. He has been AWFUL for 2 years.

Are you guys kidding me? Tramon Williams has proved to be a rising star CB in the league! He has not had poor performance just because his INT count is low. He is a Pro Bowl caliber cornerback, and because he had on unsportsmanlike conduct penalty called on him, you think he should be benched? You're out of your mind. If the packers defense is gong to succeed, they need Hayward, Shields, and Williams starting at CB, and Burnett(he's no good, but he'll have to do), and Woodson starting at the two safety spots.

 

[Harrison McCaslin]

If there is one defensive back player that needs to sit on the bench, it's Morgan Burnett. I've seen kickers that tackle better than him.

 

[bozz_2006]

Burnett was excellent for much of the season.

 

[HyponGrey]

Are you guys kidding me? Tramon Williams has proved to be a rising star CB in the league! He has not had poor performance just because his INT count is low. He is a Pro Bowl caliber cornerback, and because he had on unsportsmanlike conduct penalty called on him, you think he should be benched? You're out of your mind. If the packers defense is gong to succeed, they need Hayward, Shields, and Williams starting at CB, and Burnett(he's no good, but he'll have to do), and Woodson starting at the two safety spots.

If there is one defensive back player that needs to sit on the bench, it's Morgan Burnett. I've seen kickers that tackle better than him.

Williams should be benched because he didn't tackle, and MM said you don't tackle, you don't play. The reason we were upset is because he blatantly avoided the tackle a few times.

Burnett had more tackles than Williams with fewer opportunities to tackle. You must have mistaken him for MD Jennings, who looks very similar with a helmet on, plays next to Burnett, and is only a number off from him. Jennings was a bum too last night.

 

[HyponGrey]

http://www.packersnews.com/article/...terson-s-big-day-courtesy-Williams-timid-play

 

[rodell330]

Virtually every player has moments like that. I don't blame him for retaliating. The timing just sucked. Either way, not the end of the world.

How about retaliating by making a play to win the darn game? or using that frustration to tackle AP? Tramon Williams has become the 4th best corner on the team this year.

 

[TJV]

IMO the OP is an overreaction typical of fans after a loss, particularly one as significant as Sunday's. And I agree with those who have posted the starting CBs don’t have much to do with Woodson's return: Charles would be badly miscast as a starting CB. But a healthy Woodson replacing MD Jennings and/or McMillian at safety is a big upgrade IMO.

My only problem with Tramon this season is his tackling – or lack thereof. He was playing with a very bad shoulder last year but assuming he’s 100% healthy this season he seems to have taken Shields spot in the secondary as the 'unwilling tackler'. Shields has improved a lot in that area this season but he didn’t have Tramon's injury excuse last year.

I judge players' play based on longer stretches of play. Not one game.

Me too and IMO Williams is still a very good coverage CB who usually draws the opponent's best receiver. In McGinn’s mid season review he noted Tramon led the secondary in giving up the fewest pass completions of 20+ yards. And here are a few other excerpts from McGinn’s reviews for the second half of the season: Versus the Cardinals:

Tramon Williams shadowed Fitzgerald when he was outside and, with over-the-top safety help, held him without a catch.

Against the Vikings in their first game:

Tramon Williams (55), who chased down Peterson on the 48-yarder, was more physical and didn't allow a completion.

Versus the Lions:

Tramon Williams (84 snaps) shadowed Calvin Johnson when he was outside. When Capers brought a safety into the box late leaving Williams one-on-one, he probably fared better than Capers had hoped. Johnson caught five of the nine balls thrown his way with Williams in coverage for 63 yards. His long of the five was merely 19. Williams maintained position, reacted well to Johnson's routes and two or three times used his exceptional vertical jump to break up jump balls/take-off routes.

Against the Bears:

Tramon Williams (52) basically went where Marshall went until the Bears started putting him No. 3 (innermost of three). That's how Jones was matched against him on the TD. Usually but not always aided by safety help, Williams pestered Marshall both from press and off locations. He's in shutdown-corner mode right now.

As I said, Williams has been bad tackling but he’s still very valuable as a cover corner. I do wonder if his bad shoulder is affecting his play but I have no idea how close it is to being 100%. But that’s still no excuse – he should at least try to “ride” AP until help arrives. Replacing Williams on obvious running plays as the Christl/Baranczyk article suggests is one thing. IMO sitting him on the bench all game would be foolish.